Panasonic Full HD Plasma TH-42PY700 Specs and Pricing?

[Doggie Howser]

I tried doing a search and went to Panasonic SG site but didn't have much info.

 

Does this plasma support:

a. 1080p24? (website says no)

b. 1080p24 displayed as a multiple of 24fps

c. support 120fps smoothing?

 

I noticed the spec says HDMI 1.3. That's all.

 

Any indicative street pricing?

 

 

[c7221624705751]

no to all your questions on 24p.

it's very cheap. will all the vouchers blah blah it's somewhere <4k  :o

 

[Doggie Howser]

no to all your questions on 24p.

it's very cheap. will all the vouchers blah blah it's somewhere <4k  :o

 

 

That is cheap.

 

But considering this is a new model, surprised no 24fps. Heard an older model supports 24fps but not documented (Pete review?)

 

 

[Guest xyklop]

A neighbourhood shop selling it for $4320, cash payment. 

[armoury]

Heck, a friend told me that the 50" version was going for about $5,400.  That is jaw-droppingly cheap, considering the Pioneer goes for nearly $12K...

[HardCORE]

I have the 50PY700H.

 

No offical 1080p24 support (I havent tried forcing it as I dont have a PS3). The TV's firmware is based on Linux though, so I wonder if they might add support in the future... heheh.

 

Supports 1080i50/60 and 1080p50/60 (HDMI only).

At the PAL (i50 or p50) inputs, the TV has the option to refresh at either 100Hz (default) or 50Hz.

 

I got my 50PY700 at $5150 with $900 cash vouchers and 5 year extended warranty, and a free travel bag at the HD5 launch roadshow.

[imbest]

A neighbourhood shop selling it for $4320, cash payment. 

 

not worth it, just grab an O(BC card + Best card and enjoy 1 month installment free and whole lot of vouchers and freegifts. For Panasonic TV, neighbourhood stores is a NO NO......

 

That is cheap.

 

But considering this is a new model, surprised no 24fps. Heard an older model supports 24fps but not documented (Pete review?)

 

 

which old model?

[Doggie Howser]

which old model?

 

Must ask petetherock or jeffong. I know it wasn't documented, but it worked.

 

Anyway, saw the deal at Harvey Norman just now:

 

50" is S$6999 but you get an upfront S$1000 discount, which you can pay using up to 36 months instalment.

 

plus you get either

S$700 Taka/Shell voucher or

S$300 (or was it 400) NTUC voucher with a Draco HD tuner box!!!

 

That is a damn good deal!!

 

 

[imbest]

$6999 is the retail price but panasonic already set the new price at $5299 already what?

http://www.panasonic.com.sg/vierapromo/

 

yet another fake promo by HN......really hate them leh....it's like no promo like that.

 

go calculate again, $5999-$700 = $5299, bear in mind that at $5299, there are lots of freebies leh,

 

pull handbrake lah, wait for SITEX or Christmas sales :D confirm better than HD5 lift off one.

 

old modem means, not even the PV700/PV70?

[Doggie Howser]

$6999 is the retail price but panasonic already set the new price at $5299 already what?

http://www.panasonic.com.sg/vierapromo/

 

yet another fake promo by HN......really hate them leh....it's like no promo like that.

 

go calculate again, $5999-$700 = $5299, bear in mind that at $5299, there are lots of freebies leh,

 

pull handbrake lah, wait for SITEX or Christmas sales :D confirm better than HD5 lift off one.

 

old modem means, not even the PV700/PV70?

 

 

Brother... my eyesight is very bad leh but even I can see that the 50" PY700 promo is still S$6999 according to the brochure you sent. So the HN discount of 1k off is valid mah.

 

Again, you have to chk with jeff for the exact model. I just know jeffong verified 1080p24 recently.

 

Just hv to ping him.

 

[imbest]

opps...sorry, didn't check properly hehe....

 

but the HD5 price was already $5150, so anything more than that is just wayang only lah. try best denki. Panasonic is always greener there.....coz of their special relationship with Panasonic.

[HardCORE]

FYI, all LCD & plasma TVs have a certain "lag" from the time the video is input to the time it is displayed.

 

In case anyone is interested, the "HDTV lag" of my 50PY700 is about 41ms, when I tested it in NTSC progressive (480p60 or 1080p60 modes). Coincidentally this is 41.6ms = 1000ms/24, so I am guessing the delay is due some sort of film / 3:2 pulldown detection.

 

This will be useful if you connect the DVD/HDDVD/BD/HTPC's video output directly to the TV, and audio output directly to a separate audio amplifier (without HDMI 1.3). Then you will need to configure a delay at the audio amplifier to match the TV's delay, otherwise the video/sound might be slightly out of sync.

[c7221624705751]

FYI, all LCD & plasma TVs have a certain "lag" from the time the video is input to the time it is displayed.

 

This is COMPLETELY wrong!  You are confusing your knowledge of LCD and applying that to plasma.  Plasma driving is almost instantaneous.  It does not require a LCD charging.  Plasma driving are almost like CRT, in the range of nanoseconds.  LCD needs charging and discrete voltage states, that's why inherently it has a delay (motion lag).  That's why LCD is inherently not good for motion video.  Fundamentally speaking, plasma has no lag to speak about, whereas LCD has.

 

The only delay that's introduced into the signal path is the video processing, i.e. deinterlacing/scaling/color space conversion/frame rate conversion/etc.  This depends on the quality of the display, and is wildly different between (good and bad) models.

 

In case anyone is interested, the "HDTV lag" of my 50PY700 is about 41ms

 

If what u measured is true, 41ms is massive.  50ms is abt the limit ppl can notice lip sync.  I'm shocked.  How did u measure ?I have a 7yr old panasonic plasma and I dun see such delay, even with an interlaced input (where it needs the most processing work).

 

 

when I tested it in NTSC progressive (480p60 or 1080p60 modes). Coincidentally this is 41.6ms = 1000ms/24, so I am guessing the delay is due some sort of film / 3:2 pulldown detection.

 

This makes no sense.  For a 60p input, there is no 3:2 pull down to talk abt.  a 1080p60 input should have the least processing time.

[HardCORE]

This is COMPLETELY wrong!  You are confusing your knowledge of LCD and applying that to plasma.  Plasma driving is almost instantaneous.  It does not require a LCD charging.  Plasma driving are almost like CRT, in the range of nanoseconds.  LCD needs charging and discrete voltage states, that's why inherently it has a delay (motion lag).  That's why LCD is inherently not good for motion video.  Fundamentally speaking, plasma has no lag to speak about, whereas LCD has.

 

The only delay that's introduced into the signal path is the video processing, i.e. deinterlacing/scaling/color space conversion/frame rate conversion/etc.  This depends on the quality of the display, and is wildly different between (good and bad) models.

 

If what u measured is true, 41ms is massive.  50ms is abt the limit ppl can notice lip sync.  I'm shocked.  How did u measure ?I have a 7yr old panasonic plasma and I dun see such delay, even with an interlaced input (where it needs the most processing work).

 

 

This makes no sense.  For a 60p input, there is no 3:2 pull down to talk abt.  a 1080p60 input should have the least processing time.

Whoa calm down there buddy!

 

"HDTV lag"

 

First of all, the delay introduced by the TV has not much to do with whether its LCD or plasma. Its because of the video processing. Yes its true, plasma is quicker than LCD to "refresh" the pixels, but both are still limited by the video processing. The problems with LCD you are referring to is "ghosting" and its true that LCDs, even the new 100Hz/120Hz ones, inherently suffer from this compared to plasmas.

 

Even the digital 100Hz CRTs have a delay - I used to have one. The delay on DLP rear projection TVs used to be notoriously high. The delay is an inherent trait because these new displayes MUST try to deinterlace any interlaced signals. So they have to look 2 to 3 fields ahead to decide whether to weave, bob, do motion vector estimation, 3:2 pulldown or do whatever fancy deinterlacing method they use. Each field is 1/60Hz = 16.7ms. So at a minimum, most TV's delay it by about 2-3 fields, in the range of 33ms to 50ms.

 

This delay is also the reason why some TV's have an option called "Game Mode" which reduces the video processing to lessen the delay.

 

Sound delay compensation by the TV

 

Now obviously this type of lag is going to be noticeable to the viewer, so what do the TVs do? They compensate by delaying the sound by the exact same amount that they delay the video. So in practise, if you listen to the sound from the TV then you will never notice the delay - which is why of course you don't notice the delay with your TV.

 

For viewing videos the problem is solved... but for gaming, it could be still a problem.

 

For most games, a delay of 30-50ms doesnt mean much. Most older LCD screens took half as long to even refresh the screen! But there are some TVs that add a much more significant delay, and some games that rely on split second timing - for example the music reflex game Guitar Hero 2. Thats why these newer games have an option in the game to calibrate "HDTV lag" - but of course its not entirely accurate because you need to press buttons and human reaction time also adds some "delay".

 

Audio delay compensation by AV amps

 

The video/audio sync problem also happens when the sound is not passed from the source through your TV - so the sound doesnt get delayed by the TV. For example, when your connect your source directly to an AV surround amplifier or speakers.

 

If the sound doesnt get delayed, then depending on the delay of your TV, you may notice that the sound is slightly "ahead" of the video.

 

This is the reason why almost all new AV amps have the ability to configure a delay for the audio, to match with the TV.

 

How to "measure" the delay?

 

The technique I use is simple. I connect a single video/audio source in parallel to the TV and audio amplifier. TV will delay, audio amplifier (by default) has no delay.

 

Then I play a simple audio track - voices / dialogue are the best. I will be able to hear a slight "echo" because the TV plays the sound a bit behind the amplifier.

 

So what do I do next? I slowly increase the delay on the amplifier, until I reach a point where the echo disappears and the sound plays at exactly the same time from both TV and amplifier. This should be the correct delay value.

 

If I want to be safe, I further increase the delay on the amp until the reverse happens, now the sound from the amp is behind the TV, then I know I have too much delay, so I lower the delay again until the sound from the TV and the amp are in sync again. I do this back and forth until I find the value which is as "in the middle" as possible.

 

For my TV, this delay is 41ms.

 

HDMI 1.3

 

Obviously the above process is a bit tedious. So thats why in HDMI 1.3, if your DVD player, AV amp and TV are all HDMI 1.3 compliant, and you connect the equipment using HDMI like this:

 

DVD ---> AV Amp ---> TV

 

Then the TV is able to communicate to the AV amp how much delay the TV has introduced, and the AV amp will automatically compensate. Brilliant eh? HDMI 1.3 is useful in that way as well...

 

Is 41ms a big delay?

 

Why 41ms? 41ms happens to be very nearly the length of one 24fps movie frame. 1 second divided by 24 = 41.6ms. This is a very small delay that most people will not easily notice - which is probably why many people never bother calibrating the audio delay on their AV amps. In my experience, only when the lag is around 100ms does lip-sync become easily noticeable.

 

So in essence, the Panasonic plasmas have very low lag. But lets not fool ourselves - I'm pretty sure all digital HDTVs have lag. Although you mention no pulldown needs to be done for 1080p60, I'm not sure why there still is a lag... but trust me its there - just use the technique I mentioned above to hear it for yourself. If your TV has no lag in the progessive scan modes, then good for you lah.

[annapurna]

Whoa calm down there buddy!

 

"HDTV lag"

 

First of all, the delay introduced by the TV has not much to do with whether its LCD or plasma. Its because of the video processing. Yes its true, plasma is quicker than LCD to "refresh" the pixels, but both are still limited by the video processing. The problems with LCD you are referring to is "ghosting" and its true that LCDs, even the new 100Hz/120Hz ones, inherently suffer from this compared to plasmas.

 

Even the digital 100Hz CRTs have a delay - I used to have one. The delay on DLP rear projection TVs used to be notoriously high. The delay is an inherent trait because these new displayes MUST try to deinterlace any interlaced signals. So they have to look 2 to 3 fields ahead to decide whether to weave, bob, do motion vector estimation, 3:2 pulldown or do whatever fancy deinterlacing method they use. Each field is 1/60Hz = 16.7ms. So at a minimum, most TV's delay it by about 2-3 fields, in the range of 33ms to 50ms.

 

This delay is also the reason why some TV's have an option called "Game Mode" which reduces the video processing to lessen the delay.

 

Sound delay compensation by the TV

 

Now obviously this type of lag is going to be noticeable to the viewer, so what do the TVs do? They compensate by delaying the sound by the exact same amount that they delay the video. So in practise, if you listen to the sound from the TV then you will never notice the delay - which is why of course you don't notice the delay with your TV.

 

For viewing videos the problem is solved... but for gaming, it could be still a problem.

 

For most games, a delay of 30-50ms doesnt mean much. Most older LCD screens took half as long to even refresh the screen! But there are some TVs that add a much more significant delay, and some games that rely on split second timing - for example the music reflex game Guitar Hero 2. Thats why these newer games have an option in the game to calibrate "HDTV lag" - but of course its not entirely accurate because you need to press buttons and human reaction time also adds some "delay".

 

Audio delay compensation by AV amps

 

The video/audio sync problem also happens when the sound is not passed from the source through your TV - so the sound doesnt get delayed by the TV. For example, when your connect your source directly to an AV surround amplifier or speakers.

 

If the sound doesnt get delayed, then depending on the delay of your TV, you may notice that the sound is slightly "ahead" of the video.

 

This is the reason why almost all new AV amps have the ability to configure a delay for the audio, to match with the TV.

 

How to "measure" the delay?

 

The technique I use is simple. I connect a single video/audio source in parallel to the TV and audio amplifier. TV will delay, audio amplifier (by default) has no delay.

 

Then I play a simple audio track - voices / dialogue are the best. I will be able to hear a slight "echo" because the TV plays the sound a bit behind the amplifier.

 

So what do I do next? I slowly increase the delay on the amplifier, until I reach a point where the echo disappears and the sound plays at exactly the same time from both TV and amplifier. This should be the correct delay value.

 

If I want to be safe, I further increase the delay on the amp until the reverse happens, now the sound from the amp is behind the TV, then I know I have too much delay, so I lower the delay again until the sound from the TV and the amp are in sync again. I do this back and forth until I find the value which is as "in the middle" as possible.

 

For my TV, this delay is 41ms.

 

HDMI 1.3

 

Obviously the above process is a bit tedious. So thats why in HDMI 1.3, if your DVD player, AV amp and TV are all HDMI 1.3 compliant, and you connect the equipment using HDMI like this:

 

DVD ---> AV Amp ---> TV

 

Then the TV is able to communicate to the AV amp how much delay the TV has introduced, and the AV amp will automatically compensate. Brilliant eh? HDMI 1.3 is useful in that way as well...

 

Is 41ms a big delay?

 

Why 41ms? 41ms happens to be very nearly the length of one 24fps movie frame. 1 second divided by 24 = 41.6ms. This is a very small delay that most people will not easily notice - which is probably why many people never bother calibrating the audio delay on their AV amps. In my experience, only when the lag is around 100ms does lip-sync become easily noticeable.

 

So in essence, the Panasonic plasmas have very low lag. But lets not fool ourselves - I'm pretty sure all digital HDTVs have lag. Although you mention no pulldown needs to be done for 1080p60, I'm not sure why there still is a lag... but trust me its there - just use the technique I mentioned above to hear it for yourself. If your TV has no lag in the progessive scan modes, then good for you lah.

 

Wow, so much I've learn again from HardCORE on plama TV!  I've an old Yamaha RXV1400 Receiver that will be accepting optical input from my PS3.  Do you think such old receivers can adjust time delay??  I don't recall seeing the adjustment on the instruction manual. 

[HardCORE]

Wah I noticed after I wrote my long story that there are a few good resources on HDTV lag. Check this one out if you're interested:

 

http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/home

 

Apparently the "lag leaders" are Samsung, as in they have the worse delay, in the order or 100ms or more. Not sure if they have improved in their newer models.

[imbest]

coz Samsung has one of the most sophisticated video processor mah hehe...I think LG XD engine could be quite lag too.....

 

so are all G10 panels HDMI 1.3 capable? or only the PY700 series?

[c7221624705751]

Hardcore, u r missing the point.  U statement "all plasma and LCD have delay .." is just factually wrong.  Plasma/CRT has no inherent delay. LCD has inherent video delay.  Regardless of display technology, video processing has delay.  One particular model's processing delay just means this model has bad processing, it has no correlation that all display of this technology has the same delay.  Native resolution progressive input for a digital panel has the least amt of delay because even the video processing has almost nothing to do. So 41ms for a 1080p input is massive.  One reason I can think of for your display's lag is the dynamic contrast gimmick, because it needs to analyse the whole frame to dynamically alter the gamma. Again the deficiency of this video processing has nothing to do with the display technology.

 

I used the plasma as a monitor, and all audio goes to an amplifier.  There is no delay perceived from the video on the display and the sound from the processor.

 

btw for argument sake, decompressing DD/DTS track hsa delay too.  A Lexicon processor has close to 100ms just to do a DD decode.

[HardCORE]

Hardcore, u r missing the point.  U statement "all plasma and LCD have delay .." is just factually wrong.  Plasma/CRT has no inherent delay. LCD has inherent video delay.  Regardless of display technology, video processing has delay.  One particular model's processing delay just means this model has bad processing, it has no correlation that all display of this technology has the same delay.  Native resolution progressive input for a digital panel has the least amt of delay because even the video processing has almost nothing to do. So 41ms for a 1080p input is massive.   One reason I can think of for your display's lag is the dynamic contrast gimmick, because it needs to analyse the whole frame to dynamically alter the gamma. Again the deficiency of this video processing has nothing to do with the display technology.

 

I used the plasma as a monitor, and all audio goes to an amplifier.  There is no delay perceived from the video on the display and the sound from the processor.

 

btw for argument sake, decompressing DD/DTS track hsa delay too.  A Lexicon processor has close to 100ms just to do a DD decode.

I believe you missed my point. My point was - regardless of the panel display technology, almost all digital TVs have a delay due to the video processing. I'm not talking about the pixel refresh of the display. I'm talking about the time it takes the TV to process the input before displaying it.

 

Some TVs have larger delays than others. Some TVs have modes to reduce the delay. If you google "HDTV lag" you will find all kinds of feedback from others out there, particularly PlayStation or XBOX or Wii gamers.

 

Here is a very long thread on AVSforums about the problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125

 

Some notable info from that thread:

 

One guy tested the 50 inch Pioneer Kuro 5080 using Guitar Hero 2 XBOX360.

HDMI 720p, 1080p, 1080i - approximately 55ms

VGA, 1360x768 - approximately 21ms

 

One guy claims:

"Not true. Many plasmas, as well as LCDs, have video game lag. The 2006 Pioneer Elites have horrible lag, at 3 frames (about 100 milliseconds). The 2006 Panasonics (60U/600U) have no noticeable lag. More image processing = more lag. It just depends on the set."

"I ran some tests on floor models to determine that the 42PX60U has less than a frame of lag. By contrast, the 42" Pioneer plasma has 3 frames of lag. I reccomended the 42PX60U to a friend and neighbor. He bought it, we have marathon gaming sessions, and have had no trouble with lag. "

[imbest]

guys, dun argue liao lah. both have their points, depends on perspectives.

 

as long as there is a solution to resolve the delay, can liao lah.