boseguru Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 Before I even get started, a bit of a disclaimer is in order: This post has been years in the making if only subconsciously. That is to say I’ve been a not-so-casual observer to the Bose phenomenon for the past 16 years or so and with the sheer amount of information I’ve been bottling up for the last decade and a half. This will be a long (and potentially controversial) post so please bear with me. Circa 1994: I'm working in a high end audio store, a couple walks in and ask to hear a surround sound system. I take them to our audio for video room and begin a demonstration of a Marantz receiver paired with a 5.1 speaker package from PSB audio. They listen for a few minutes and say, "What about Bose?" After a brief pause I replied with my standard, "We feel we’ve found other brands that offer better performance than (insert-brand-name-here) and if you'll let me continue, I think you'll feel the same way." Both the customer and salesmen won that day, i.e. I sold them a system that offered significantly better sound quality than Bose and it consisted of components not all in one box. I've always found it odd that more folks don't recognize the single box approach is a liability as much as a convenience. If a source component fails, you still have the receiver on hand for radio and television playback. If your all-in-one box fails, nothing works. Not to mention the lack of an upgrade path with single box systems, but I digress. This was far from the last time I made that speech and it's ultimately why I got out of retail sales. Those words, "What about Bose?" conjure up memories of frustrating afternoons trying to convince someone that brand recognition doesn't necessarily equate performance. Some people are cut out for retail sales and others aren't. I don't consider myself a natural born salesmen, but given the setting I made due with the skills I had and more often than not I found ways to swing potentially negative outcomes my way. But in the end, I went on to focus on areas I had more expertise in; installation, design, and management. I suppose by this point you've already realized this article won't be overly favorable towards Bose, but at the same time I won't overlook what Bose has done right. The problem therein lies with what Bose has done right; it has very little to do with performance and a lot to do with marketing. If you were to walk down the street in any major metropolitan city, or country back road for that matter, and ask a passerby quick name a speaker brand, a large percentage would rattle off Bose in a heartbeat. How can this be? How can one audio manufacturer be so universally well known? The answer is advertising and clever marketing. Bose's second closest competitor probably doesn't spend 1/4 as much on advertising and it's paid off for them in spades. Bose was founded in 1964, Sony in 1946*, and RCA in the 1920’s. Look at the vast array of products introduced by both RCA and Sony and compare them with the relatively few offerings from Bose. Yet Bose in many circles is just as esteemed and recognized as any other electronics company. How can this be? Again marketing. Bose's perception and product recognition among consumers is undeniable, but I reiterate this doesn't necessarily equate to performance, value, or quality. • Why is Bose so popular? So let's examine some of the reasons Bose has carved out such a strong niche in the audio market and then I'll offer my own observations and hopefully level the playing field a bit. Going all the way back to the Bose 901's (and farther) the company began a campaign of branding and word association that remains with them to this day. A few examples of words that have become synonymous with Bose are: Direct Reflecting, Acoustimass, and Waveguide. Now all of these terms may or may not mean anything to you, but how about a few more examples: Lifestyle System, Wave Radio, 3•2•1 system, Mini Cube System, etc, are all examples of the strong branding behind Bose. Simply put, it's very likely you can go out and buy a system from Bose today that was available in-name 5,10 or 15 years ago. This was a very smart branding move on their part, as it allows the product to be introduced, mature and plateau in a time frame that other products have long since been forgotten. And how did we learn these product names? From countless print, internet, and radio ads of course. If you're like me you probably have a stack of home theater magazines somewhere nearby, go grab a handful. I'll bet you Bose ads can be found in the majority of them. And it's not just the ad themselves, oftentimes who delivers them is just as important as the content of the ad. Paul Harvey , longtime Bose pitchman is heard by millions of listeners each day, many of who regard his word as infallible. Do I believe Mr. Harvey is doing his listeners a disservice by hawking Bose products? Of course not, the show needs advertisers and the product fills the needs of many of Harvey’s listeners just fine. But again I make the assertion that sometimes good or valuable is in the eye of the beholder and what's adequate for one consumer falls very short of the mark for others. Ok, so far we’ve examined several of the reasons Bose is such an icon in the consumer electronics industry. Now I want to explore some specifics behind the products and hopefully shed some light on why a little research can be well worth your time, if you're in the market for a new audio system. EDIT: Copy from part 1 to save resoruce.
nawoo Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 So far in part one of our discussion, we’ve explored a little about why Bose is such a dominant brand with consumers and I’ve even shared a bit about my personal experiences with customers who’ve been Bose-Washed ©. Now let’s get into some specifics on why I feel you’d be doing yourself a disservice to buy any audio product, especially Bose, without first auditioning some other brands. In all honesty I have to admit this part of my post has caused me some apprehension. The overwhelming sense of where do I begin has been gnawing at the back of mind since I first decided to write the article. Ultimately I decided retelling my most recent conversation about Bose would get the ball rolling, so here we go. Many, if not all, of my friends know I’m in the consumer electronics industry and from time to time they’ll ask me questions like, "What kind of surround system should I get, Bose?" One particular time I was asked this question and I grimaced much like when someone shows you a picture of their newborn and asks isn’t he/she so cute? You're trying to muster a yes when all you’re thinking is, oh gosh that’s an ugly baby. It's quite an uncomfortable feeling. This is exactly how I felt recently when a friend was looking for my affirmation on their potential Bose purchase. After pulling my thoughts together I realized this person is looking to me for advice and not a gloss over, so I began with "It really all depends on what you want out of the system." My reply seemed to shock him a bit as he said, "Well… I want a great sounding surround system of course." I replied, "Then Bose may not be for you." Now context is very important here. This is someone who has already shown a predisposition for a really good system (I know because I helped him pick out his projector) and not someone who was starting from scratch. I went on to tell him about how Bose tries to discourage dealers from demonstrating their products head to head with competitors. If you’ve ever seen Bose on display in a retail setting, you may have noticed that the Bose stand or island display is set away from the rest of the sound equipment. Some might argue this is premium product placement but I’m of the opinion this is designed to put the product in a favorable light and in doing so, making it hard to make direct comparisons with the other products. Lets talk about the product itself. In the interest of brevity for the rest of this post assume that I’m talking about a Bose home theater system. I’ve already mentioned my dislike of their all-in-one approach to electronics so for the remainder of the post, I’ll focus on their home theater speakers. But keep in mind whether you're looking at a complete Lifestyle system with electronics or a stand alone speaker system, the speakers themselves are relatively consistent throughout the 6.1 packages. • Frequency Response Ah, let’s not forget about the diminutive cube speakers. Modern technology is a wonderful thing. We’ve solved so many day to day problems in our lives with technological advances. Many would assume the tiny speakers that handle the high and middle frequencies in a Bose system are just another example of this. Unfortunately, the laws of physics didn’t get the memo that a 2.5” driver can accurately reproduce high frequencies and down to lower-mid range frequencies. As it turns out, those lower mid range frequencies are one area where the Bose Cube-Satellite system falls short. It's not that the Bose system doesn’t recreate lower-mids at all, it's where they come from that's the issue. The Bose Acoustimass subwoofer by and large handles these low-mid frequencies for the system, which introduces another two-fold problem back into the system. Firstly since the cubes aren’t going down as low as a standard bookshelf speaker would, the system suffers from poor mid-range localization. And since those frequencies are being handled by the subwoofer, the sub itself suffers from an overachiever complex that often results in poor low end response. Speaking of frequency response, Bose doesn’t publish frequency responses for their consumer products. Dr. Amar Bose was quoted as saying "looking at frequency responses on paper and charts doesn't really matter - it boils down to how it sounds to people". I will be the first to admit that frequency responses aren’t a good way to judge a speaker, especially if you’re comparing similar speakers. But I think it’s safe to say Bose would be exempt from the similar speaker comparison example. When your competitors publishes their frequency responses and your company doesn’t, you're either betting that your average customer doesn’t care enough to investigate statistics or that they really don’t matter at all. Given the fact that Bose cites several technological advancements as a direct result of their engineering, I’m betting it’s the former. Here is the simple truth about Bose Cube/Sat speaker systems and their frequency response. There are obvious localization problems caused by the low-mid frequency shift to the subwoofer. A simple way to illustrate this (if you happen to own a Bose home theater system) is during a movie unplug all of your satellites and see if you can still follow the dialog from the subwoofer. So far in about 5 out of 5 attempts, I’ve been able to follow the dialog. No I don’t own a Bose system, but I’ve replaced several. You shouldn’t be able to follow dialog from a subwoofer alone. This is indicative of a sub that’s recreating mid to upper mid-range frequencies, and not focusing on the low end as it should. The general consensus is that as little as a 30hz gap or as large as a 80hz gap exists between Bose’s Cubes and Subwoofer. But again with out official frequency response figures from Bose, we’re left with outside independent reviewers speculating on the actual numbers. That is to say, I’m unaware of any credible third parties testing the frequency response of Bose’s Cube/Sat systems. But suffice to say, ANY frequency response gap would be worse than a high or low roll-off. I haven’t even mentioned the price of Bose’s home theater systems, but I need to. Bose’s premium home theater systems aka The Lifestyle System, range anywhere from $1,599 to $3,999 at time of press. I don’t want to get into the "you could buy xyz components instead of Bose diatribe", but I will say please do some shopping. You’ll be very surprised at what you can get in a component/speaker package from other manufacturers for say $2500.00, which often winds up being the average price of one of the Lifestyle Systems. • Summary I’ll close in saying that Bose is very often an emotional purchase by uninformed (through no fault of their own) buyers looking to buy a ‘surround sound system’ and more often than not the size of the Satellite Cubes is what seals the deal. However if you’re after genuine sonic fidelity and aren’t limited to a speaker that’s tiny, I urge you to do your research, hear multiple systems and refrain from impulse purchases, your ears and wallet will thank you. In doing research for this article, I ran across a reprint of an article from SmartMoney entitled 'The Sound and the Fury'. The article reviews 5 speakers (Bose among them) and features Lou Reed as a guest reviewer. There is a hilarious quote from Mr. Reed in the article about Bose, but I’ll let you read it for yourself. Note: don’t take the link as an endorsement of Klipsch speakers, that’s just where the .pdf of the mentioned article resides. p.s My goal here was informing potential Bose buyers, not lambasting current owners. If you own a Bose system and think it’s the cats meow then kudos to you, but please understand our comment system is for on-topic polite discussion and not for belligerent rhetoric. EDIT: Posted by boseguru and not nawoo.
darthmax Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 For HR and job applications, please email us at hr@atlas-sv.com or call us at (65) 6334 9427. ;D
boseguru Posted October 15, 2007 Author Posted October 15, 2007 For HR and job applications, please email us at hr@atlas-sv.com or call us at (65) 6334 9427. ;D Now Why Would I wanna Do A Stupid Thing Like That?
Phil1624705739 Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 When I throw a Bose match stick in the forums, it's merely meant to put some spark & laughter into this forum. If taken in the right light, many will see that I'm merely mocking the 4 lettered brand and it's diehard followers. No ill intentions. Boseguru, I think many members are confused by the way you carry yourself. The above from your PM should clarify your stand much better. Nonetheless, lets avoid brand bashing yeah? Phil
boseguru Posted October 15, 2007 Author Posted October 15, 2007 Point taken Phil. Will do. I hope my latest thread "Before you buy a bose - ponder on this first" clarifies my stand and where I've been coming from since I came to town 2 days ago. (Come to think of it, since I came to town, I've managed to garner over 500 views just on Bose topic alone). How's that for eyeballs. What this little Bose episode has shown me also is that the profile of the typical audiophile hasn't changed much. Still trigger happy and devoid of intellect and humour. Many a time have I sold sound systems to couples where GFs or Wives have walked out of soundrooms because of the strange, fanatical behaviour displayed by their audiophile BFs orHubbys. They may be doctors/ lawyers, but when they open their mouths, you can imagine the stuff that comes out when they're in their "audiophile trance". You can also guess how many kilobuck systems I've sold just piggy backing on their wives (no pun intended), with hubbys in a trance like state. So this may sound inflammatory, bit it's intentions aren't, but I think this forums could do with a pinch of intellectual humour. The beautiful hobby of audio is made up of savvy people too. It''s just that some audiophiles are too far gone to remember what it's like to laugh. Come to think of it, these are the exact kind who never seem to enjoy their sound systems. something's always wrong with it. andit's people like me who make money out of people like them. Cheers brudder.
lwm99 Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 I hope my latest thread "Before you buy a bose - ponder on this first" clarifies my stand and where I've been coming from since I came to town 2 days ago. (Come to think of it, since I came to town, I've managed to garner over 500 views just on Bose topic alone). How's that for eyeballs. Come to think of it, many people are curious why they is someone talks about Bose in a forum about hi-fi and hi-def, seems out of place :)
boseguru Posted October 15, 2007 Author Posted October 15, 2007 Come to think of it, many people are curious why they is someone talks about Bose in a forum about hi-fi and hi-def, seems out of place :) Read more of my posts on the other threads and you'll be able to piece it together. Things aren't always what they appear to be. A least you'll be doing good to this forum by visiting other posts and getting enlightened in more ways than one.
Hefraz Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 Boseguru.. Why have you made it your mission to shove Bose down our throats? ??? ???
tsammyc Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 Hefraz, he's not trying to shove Bose down our throats. He's just a smartass who is trying to show off to us that he can write in indirect ways that most forumers don't understand. By and large, forumers here are quite straight forward chaps. That is a good trait for a forum yet we are belittled for not being able to understand his brand of sarcasm. Just ignore him and he will go away.
dmateo Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 mate Hefraz, read carefully. I don't think you conclusion is correct. It's just for fun and see different perspective of customer type..:)
monstertruck Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 huh? i fully understand what boseguru (or anti-bose guru) and nawoo is talking about leh... very sarcastic and enlightening. he surely brings us into the overhyped world of bose.
boseguru Posted October 16, 2007 Author Posted October 16, 2007 mate Hefraz, read carefully. I don't think you conclusion is correct. It's just for fun and see different perspective of customer type..:) I guess some are just a little brighter than others
darkeststar Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 "He's just a smartass who is trying to show off to us that he can write in indirect ways that most forumers don't understand" maybe that's the reason why he got booted off the AVS forum?
Guest queks Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 If the threadstarter continue to spam the forum, this forum will be the next to boot him off. To threadstarter: don't go around and mess up other ppl's sales thread.
Phil1624705739 Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 I would suggest you folks just ignore him if he prefers to write in a highly provocative style. Phil
kzone Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 Read more of my posts on the other threads and you'll be able to piece it together. You are flooding the forum, I tried to ignore ur posts but its everywhere & getting irritating... u're prob well educated....y not be considerate as well? & limit ur comments on Bose to this thread or better still, only post in this thread (its easier to ignore them that way).. Hope u understand this straight forward way of saying things...
blackburn Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 tongue in cheek delivered with good intentions can be fun to read. but that is only if it is meant well ;D
boseguru Posted October 16, 2007 Author Posted October 16, 2007 You are flooding the forum, I tried to ignore ur posts but its everywhere & getting irritating... u're prob well educated....y not be considerate as well? & limit ur comments on Bose to this thread or better still, only post in this thread (its easier to ignore them that way).. Hope u understand this straight forward way of saying things... case in point. Bose, just by it's name, irritates the hell out of audiophile wannabes. as for the seasoned audiophiles, it don't bother them much. In fact they laugh at the name. Is Bose to blame? or is it audiophile wannabes insecurity. This is a documented worldwide phenomenon folks. seasoned audiophiles just laugh it off for they know the truth about audio and are secure about themselves, and has the clout and knowledge to show it. but it's the little wannabes who overeact and take offence. just like little boys in a shouting match.
Phil1624705739 Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 Locked due to flaming. And Boseguru, we have already warned you. Keep your discussion right to the point and spare us the sarcasm please? This is your last chance. Phil
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