Denon 1930 SACD

[cn9601]

I have just connected a new Denon 1930 to Yamaha RX-V995, using Digital Optical (DD & DTS), analog 5.1ch (SACD & DVD-A), Composite Video (also from Yamaha to TV) and HDMI direct to TV. I also have a Rotel RCD-02 connected to Yamaha using Composite Audio.

 

I have intentionally bought a SACD CD (comes in 2 CDs: SACD Stereo and Normal CD) which plays Gu-Jia-Hui popular TVB Theme Songs :)

 

When I play the SACD, Denon 1930 does detect SACD and clearly indicates 2ch (= SACD Stereo, I think). On the Yamaha, I select External Decoder, so that it could pick up the analog 5.1ch audio signal.

 

But I am now disappointed by the audio quality of SACD CD. It does not have the 'kick' I would have expected form a SACD. The bundled normal CD even sounds better. As much as I could hear, it sounds like it is missing bass and kinda softer. WHAT HAPPEN?

 

I am thinking to go all the way out to get more SACD of those Canton oldies from Geroge Lam, Jacky Cheung, Classical, etc........ :+(

 

Please enlighten me. Thank you.

 

[Guest Assys1606]

I have the Oppo 970 universal player that can play SACD 5.1, SACD stereo & normal CD. I also have the "Brother in arm" SACD album which contains all the 3 formats. Listen to SACD 5.1 is great. I do agree that I can't hear any difference between the SACD stereo & the normal CD tracks. Maybe my equipment is just not up to mark to reproduce the difference.

[SiriuslyCold]

cn9601

 

what speakers are you using?

if you listen using 'external decoder' on your Yamaha does it do bass management?

 

here's what I think happens

in most older receivers, the signal from analog multichannel 5.1 is not passed to the processor - it only gets amplified. what this means is  the signal is pure, but also that if your speakers are not capable of reproducing bass  (for example satellites/ smaller bookshelves) then you lose the low end

 

If you listen to a normal CD thru the stereo or digital inputs the signal can be bass managed i.e the bass is redirected to the subwoofer. If this does not happen with satellites - you get no bass.

 

some new higher end receivers can bass manage the audio from the 5.1ch inputs - but this also means that the analog signal from your SACD is converted to PCM, processed then converted back to analog before being amplified. the ADC sampling rate and word length (192kHz, 24b) makes it transparent to the listener, but rabidsome SACD fans are psychoacoustically affected by this ADC-DAC stage and the presence of PCM in the signal chain

 

the difference in volume between SACD (also DVD-A) and redbook (normal) CDs is because the normal CD is usually compressed, and mixed louder - there are no standards for CD audio mixing and most newer CDs are mixed too loud (this is another issue altogether, but you lose the dynamic range). the lower volume of SACD means the audio retains the dynamic range  of the recording. just use your volume knob.

 

[cn9601]

;D My front spkrs are Bose satellite (I could hear disappointment), centre & rear are Missions.

 

I have to use Denon 1930 to process SACD because (1) Denon is using HDMI v1.1, so not capable to pass SACD audio thru SACD; and (2) Yamaha AV is an old model without HDMI. Nevertheless, given hte research that I have done so far, Denon is capable to produce reasonably good (or acceptable) SACD audio. Therefore, generally speaking, I would have thought it is alright.

 

In any case, I am making the comparison on the same Denon 1930, same Yamaha AV, same spkrs set, same.......the difference is the SACD and the bundled normal CD. That is, when I play the normal CD the soundstage is 'rich' and proper. Why the SACD fails to perform??? I am thinking about the 'calibration' required on the Denon 1930, which maybe I need to caliabrate all the 5.1chs: FL/R, SL/R, Ctr and LFE. Maybe someone has done this before and could advise me how I am supposed to calibrate the 5.1ch. TYVM :)

[Guest Assys1606]

Hi cn9601,

Did u compare (SACD stereo & normal CD track) the sound quality of the same album...like what i did?

Maybe SACD stereo does sound better (soft but retains the dynamic range) like what SiriuslyCold has mentioned.

I have to listen again to draw a new conclusion.

[cn9601]

Hi. What I have mentioned is actually from the SAME album. This SACD album comes with 2 CDs: one SACD Stereo and one normal CD. That is why I am disappointed that playing from the SAME album, how could the SACD Stereo NOT sounding as good as (in fact, much BETTER) than its normal CD :(

 

Assys1606, do you have to calibrate your Oppo 970 player or your Receiver/Amp is capable to process SACD audio?

 

In my case, now I am pretty sure that I need to calibrate the Denon 1930.

[SiriuslyCold]

... the difference is the SACD and the bundled normal CD. That is, when I play the normal CD the soundstage is 'rich' and proper. Why the SACD fails to perform???

 

if you play a multichannel SACD, I bet the audio will be OK.

 

do you listen to the normal CD through the digital inputs? using direct mode?

 

[cn9601]

Yes, the normal CD will pass through the optical digital to the Yamaha AV. Sorie, my Yamaha is ancient, so it does not have the Direct Mode. The best I could do is to select 'No Effect'.

 

I have also tested the SACD Stereo CD using the optical digital. And it is proven that the audio signal MUST pass through the analog 5.1ch, because there is no audible sound.

 

Sadly, just a while ago as I research on Internet, the Denon 1930 Base Mgmt feature is only for the HDMI (!!!). That means, I must connect HDMI to the Yamaha AV.

 

Guess before I upgrade the AV with HDMI inputs, I must stop shopping around for SACD :( Sad, so-so SAD +( Suddenly I feel a sense of being short-changed :(

[Guest Assys1606]

 

Assys1606, do you have to calibrate your Oppo 970 player or your Receiver/Amp is capable to process SACD audio?

 

In my case, now I am pretty sure that I need to calibrate the Denon 1930.

No, I didn’t calibrate my Oppo nor my Yamaha AV receiver. Yes, I’m also using year 2000 model (RX-V1000). I don’t think there’s a need to calibrate if u are listening to SACD stereo or normal CD, correct me if I’m wrong. Apart from the fact that I set to “No effect” & also select “Main” or “Both” depending on whether I want my bass to output from the main speakers only or both the main speakers & the subwoofer.

Since I’m not using HDMI connection, SACD stereo can only be output thru’ L/R analog terminals. For normal CD, I can output thru’ L/R analog or digital terminals.

 

[SiriuslyCold]

if the player can output the SACD stereo layer through the normal L/R analog outputs (i addition to the 5.1 analog out) then you can listen to SACD through there. The receiver will properly route the bass to the subwoofer

 

 

 

 

[cn9601]

What I know so far is that SACD/DVD-Audio can only route through analog 5.1ch or HDMI. I think HDMI v1.1 can support DVD-Audio signal, but only from v1.2a it can support SACD audio.

 

For those hybrid (single) SACD disc, the disc actually has dual layers: one SACD layer and one normal CD layer. For such disc, when it is played and the audio is routed through the L/R composite analogy, then it is ACTUALLY playing off from the normal CD layer.

[SiriuslyCold]

lets try a little experiment if you want/can

 

take the front L/R channels from the 5.1 output of the DVD 1930 and plug them into one of the unused inputs, and play your SACD. Of course this isn't a permanent solution - you'll never get to listen to multichannel SACD/ DVDA. But it would be interesting to compare the audio from 2ch SACD and redbook when both can be bass managed by the receiver.

 

I suspect the volume from SACD will be lower, and you'll have to turn it up - but you'll not be fatigued listening to SACD compared to redbook

[DanDon]

I played Sarah Brightman SACD which can be selected for multi SACD, stereo SACD and normal CD. When playing multi SACD, the volume is softer but the soundstage is wider which creates different type of ambience. The bass for multi SACD is not strong as compared to stereo SACD and normal CD. Probaly, it's the norm of multi SACD that has less bass.

[varun1624705824]

What I know so far is that SACD/DVD-Audio can only route through analog 5.1ch or HDMI.

 

Unless you're using Denon on both ends (i.e. receiver and player) in which case you can use a single connection called DenonLink :-) . Looks like an ethernet cable (but isn't).

 

[cn9601]

Hi, SiriuslyCold. Abt yr advice to swap the L/F and R/F of 5.1ch to the L/R composite, somehow I wont think it will work with SACD Stereo Disc. I understand that SACD audio is routed to HDMI and/or 5.1ch. However, pls correct me if I am wrong abt that.

 

At the moment, there is only Optical Digital that connect to AV Amp. I assume that either Optical Digital or L/R Composite is the default path for normal CD audio. I have tried to play the SACD 'hoping' the audio is routed to this Digital Optical path when I disable External Decorder on AV Amp. BUT there is no sound. As such, I am inclined to think that the SACD (Stereo or Multi-Ch) disc when play cannot be routed to the Digital (Optical/Coaxial) or L/R analog composit.

 

So is my technical understanding abt how SACD audio is routed within a SACD capable player right? That is normal CD uses digital (optical/coaxial) or L/R analog composite. And SACD/DVD-A uses HDMI or 5.1ch. I am assuming the L/F and R/F to double up as Stereo when playing SACD Stereo.

 

TYVM :)

[SiriuslyCold]

i said - take the front L/R from the 5.1ch output and plug it into any of the stereo inputs

 

the SACD will still be output thru the 5.1 right?

 

 

[cn9601]

"take the front L/R from the 5.1ch output and plug it into any of the stereo inputs"

 

If my understanding is right, SACD does not route to the Stereo analog (Red and White composite), then playing the SACD will NOT produce any Front L and Front R sounds, right?

 

I have bumped into the following info at http://support.turtlebeach.com/site/kb_ftp/604619750.asp, which appears to have confirmed that SACD MUST route through the 5.1ch analog (ie. F/L & F/R, S/L & S/R, Ctr and Woofer). The standard stereo composite L & R does not support the SACD audio source.

 

5.1-Channel Audio Connection:

A 5.1-channel analog audio connection sends processed audio signals (as

opposed to the raw audio data sent via a digital audio cable) from your SACD,

DVD-Audio or DVD player with a built-in Dolby Digital or DTS decoder to a home

theater receiver (with 5.1-channel inputs) for amplification. It is the only

way to enjoy multichannel SACD or DVD-Audio discs. Quality cables provide

shielding and improved signal transfer, resulting in premium performance from

your components. A total of 6 cables is required. We recommend an all-in-one

cable that's specifically designed for dedicated use in 5.1-channel

applications, but 3 sets of very-high-quality stereo audio cables with RCA

connectors, in identical lengths, will also do the job.

 

[media2368]

Hi Cn9601,

 

I am not sure whether I am right, please try this:

 

On Denon 1930:

 

In STOP mode:

1) Select Setup > Custom > Audio > Audio Mode, select "Analog Audio".

2) Select Setup > Custom > Audio > Analog Audio (read Note below) and Select "2 CHANNEL". This output 2ch sound from the 5.1ch AUDIO OUT jacks.

 

[Note: "Analog Audio" is under "HDMI Audio", just press cusor "arrow down" from HDMI Audio and you will see Analog Audio on second page from the audio menu.]

 

Alternatively, try this:

 

Speaker Setting:

1) Select Setup > Custom > Audio > Analog Audio and press ENTER to select "MULTI CHANNEL" and the custom menu will appear.

2) Select "Speaker Configuration":

    a) Front (L/R) choose "LARGE". (If you choose SMALL, frequency below 100hz will pass to Subwoofer [even though your CD/SACD is 2 channel/stereo sound]) - Please correct me if I am wrong.

    b) Subwoofer: Select "NONE" if you do not have one. (SMALL is not available for FRONT (L/R) when NONE is selected for SUB WOOFER.)

 

For "DELAY TIME", you should setup by measuring your listening position. And "CHANNEL LEVEL", get a SPL Sound Pressure Meter to adjust and balance the sound level for all channel.

 

Also, please ensure the interconnect to/from the 5.1 channel are connected correctly. You may use the test tone from "CHANNEL LEVEL" to double check.

 

Hope the above help. :)

[Guest baron1624705861]

I've got same problem, but with a Yamaha vx2700 and the 1930. I also went through the manual and setup as per above, and improved the sound a lot but still lacking bass. I found the problem was the amp, apparently the 2700 (and maybe others) has a bug with the 5.1 input that it does not route LFE.1 channel correctly. When I crank the sub up to nearly 100% volume I get some bass and a decent sound. (but i kill the house if I switch back to normal without putting back to 20% volume. Their apparently is a software fix for the yamaha, but its current in japanese, so I think I have to RMA the amp. The 1930 settings to set it to 5.1 are very tricky to find as certain modes disable the setting, so you need to find the correct mode so the setting can actually be changed.

[cn9601]

Thank you  :D

 

I have just come back from the AV shop and sort of 'making a BIG fuss' with the Showroom Mgr, who has recommended/sold me the 1930  ::) Well, it is actually more of a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion.

 

Foremost, it is 'double' confirmed that SACD quality audio will only route to the HDMI or 5.1ch analog. BUT it is also possible for the 1930 to decode the SACD disc and play it off through L/R composite analog, if I have connected Red & White L/R interconnect cable to AV Amp as CD input source. Well the audio should be the downscaled PCM quality. However, it is UNNECESSARY for me because I have already connected digital optical and 5.1ch analog. If I want to, I could always play the normal CD through digital optical.

 

Nevertheless, I have told him that using the 5.1ch, I could hear something producing from the L/F and R/F spkrs. Then he asks me to calibrate the 5.1ch on 1930, as mentioned also by media2368.

 

In fact, I continue to research on SACD stuff. And more BAD news is that actually one major weakness of SACD is the lack of bass. And as mentioned also by baron, the issue lies with the AV amp External Decorder 5.1ch analog, somehow failing to decode/route LFE to woofer. And currently only a handful brands are addressing this issue for the expensive high-end model. The DVD-Audio appears to have less of this Bass Mgmt problem. :+(

 

I will try the 1930 calibration later. At the same time, I have also bought a hybrid SACD, which is a single with dual layer: one layer for SACD, and another layer for normal audio. I want to see how the 1930 will recognise the CD, ie. as 2ch SACD or normal CD. Then play it off with the External Decorder disabled at AV Amp, which the audio should be routed via digital optical. If SACD, then there should not be any sound.

 

 

 

 

[SiriuslyCold]

i meant use the 5.1 analog outputs, but instead of connecting the front L/R to the 5.1 analog inputs, connect it to the stereo inputs instead. moot i guess

 

[media2368]

....Foremost, it is 'double' confirmed that SACD quality audio will only route to the HDMI or 5.1ch analog. BUT it is also possible for the 1930 to decode the SACD disc and play it off through L/R composite analog, if I have connected Red & White L/R interconnect cable to AV Amp as CD input source. Well the audio should be the downscaled PCM quality. However, it is UNNECESSARY for me because I have already connected digital optical and 5.1ch analog. If I want to, I could always play the normal CD through digital optical...

 

Hi cn9601, you only need to connect to 5.1 analog but configure Analog Audio (read Note below) and Select "2 CHANNEL" (instead of Multi-Ch). You will need to set back to "Multi-Ch" when you play Multi-Ch SACD.

 

....I found the problem was the amp, apparently the 2700 (and maybe others) has a bug with the 5.1 input that it does not route LFE.1 channel correctly. When I crank the sub up to nearly 100% volume I get some bass ....

 

In fact, I continue to research on SACD stuff. And more BAD news is that actually one major weakness of SACD is the lack of bass. And as mentioned also by baron, the issue lies with the AV amp External Decorder 5.1ch analog, somehow failing to decode/route LFE to woofer. And currently only a handful brands are addressing this issue for the expensive high-end model. The DVD-Audio appears to have less of this Bass Mgmt problem. :+(

 

 

The LFE.1 is a known issue for SACD/DVD-Audio.

 

I remember that I ever read something about the crossover of SACD and DVD-Audio somewhere (cannot remember)...the SACD was cross over at 100hz and DVD-Audio crossover was set at 200hz...seriously cannot remember...so don't blast me and question me about this.

 

You can use EITHER ONE of this method to increase the volume level of subwoofer.

[iMPORTANT: For the following method, you will not allow to set the subwoofer channel level, if speaker configuration has set "Subwoofer" to NONE.]

 

 

Channel Level Setting on DVD Player (Not sure whether Denon 1930 allow to set the channel level of Subwoofer, so please check)

1) Select "Speaker Configuration" > "CHANNEL LEVEL"

2) Select "Subwoofer" and increase the Level to 9~10db. (NOTE: The best way to find the correct volume level, is to output test tone from the dvd player then use a SPL Sound Pressure Meter to adjust and balance the sound with the rest of the channels, i.e. Front L, Front R, Center, Surround L and Surround R etc.)

 

 

Channel Level Setting on AVR - Older AVR may not able to apply

1) Select sound source from Multi-CH.

2) Then, you can increase the Subwoofer volume Level on AVR to 9~10db for the volume level of Subwoofer.

[Example: if the current level of Subwoofer is ZERO, then adjust to +9/+10. If the subwoofer's level is -3, then adjust to +6/+7.]

(NOTE: The best way to find the correct volume level, is to output test tone from the dvd player then use a SPL Sound Pressure Meter to adjust and balance the sound with the rest of the channels, i.e. Front L, Front R, Center, Surround L and Surround R etc.)

 

:)

[cn9601]

Thank You All  ;)

 

I guess now my SACD enthusiasm is being 'severely' dampened. Guess it may just be more economical to keep life simpler with normal stereo CD. Anyway, later I will try to calibrate 1930 and make do with whatever it can produce. Guess right now I have already brought down very much my expectation bar  :-[

 

On the positive side, LUCKILY I din go for the high end DVD player, eg. 2930 or 3930 or Marantz 7001. Whew  :P

[SiriuslyCold]

cn9601

 

you have to try a multichannel SACD before giving up on it.

 

I have small bookshelves for my front L/R and because there  is no bass  management on my receiver via 5.1 analog inputs I almost never listen to SACD in stereo. But multichannel SACD is awesome. the 1920 also plays DVD-Audio so give that a try too. Pingu said he might be coming over to listen tomorrow - you can join if you want

[cn9601]

Sorie for the late response.

 

I have 'calibrated' 1930, ie. Analog Audio - 5.1ch - SIZE of F/L F/R S/L S/R Ctr LFE, then caliabrating distance.

 

As mentioned by SiriuslyCold, I have learnt something new about SACD Stereo and Multi-Ch. The Multi-Ch SACD is awesome - something different from DTS 5.1. Well, I have a pair of bookshelf-type Mission 77 as my Rear Spkrs, which I have calibrated as LARGE Rear Surround. The distinctive audio source from Front and Rear is more discrete than DTS source (!!!)  :o But the bass is still weaker than DTS source.

 

I have also learnt that for SACD Multi-Ch Disc, the 1930 has more options: CD - 2ch - Multi-ch. Switching around these options will have momentary pause, likely the pickup lens is also switching. Sorie, considering the nbr of tests I have done, I will have thought that the 'CD' audio is also output via the 5.1ch with AV External Decorder disabled. The 2ch sounds FLAT and of course lack of bass, even though I pump up the LFE level and pushing up the Ouput Volume.

 

Yes, I am a little  :) with the SACD Multi-ch. But most Multi-ch SACDs are classical music. Think contemporary SACD music like Police, Eagles, Sam Hui, George Lam, etc...are SACD Stereo. I have found the Blue Man Group on DVD-Audio.

 

;)