Do you know that its illegal to upscale 480p to 720p over Component?!

[desray]

:o :o :o I never realize that! until Marantz Support mentioned to me that DVD Players that's able to perform upscaling capability to 720p is in fact violating the industry norms! Currently only DVI and/or HDMI is/are 'legal' to do so...

 

Can anyone confirm this?  :o :o :o

 

::)

[UpGuy]

does that make momitsu illegal then ? ::)

[raysusan]

i am surprise to hear that

[Hardlok]

This thread may have some relevance:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-411511.html

[Jag]

ya, not supposed to. The quality of HDTV quality 720p and 1080i means extremely high quality copies of a movie can be made easily even by a 1-man-operation pirate copier due to a lack of strong copy-protection mechanism over the component output..

 

So, players that are able to support HD over component are the rare ones. but industry frowns upon such practises.

[tsammyc]

:o :o :o I never realize that! until Marantz Support mentioned to me that DVD Players that's able to perform upscaling capability to 720p is in fact violating the industry norms! Currently only DVI and/or HDMI is/are 'legal' to do so...

 

Can anyone confirm this?  :o :o :o

 

::)

 

Arrest me!!

 

Brudder, just kidding OK.

[avo1624705802]

The process of upconverting is not illegal as far as the consumer is concerned. No worries there. :)

 

Restriction in upconverting over analog is purely a contractual matters between manufacturers and license granting bodies. So in theory Momitsu can be sued in the civil court by MPAA or something.

[basspundit]

Then what happens when the upscaling is done by another piece of eq? A video processor or AV with upscaler and HDMI out?

Does that automatically by-passes the copy-protection?

 

ya, not supposed to. The quality of HDTV quality 720p and 1080i means extremely high quality copies of a movie can be made easily even by a 1-man-operation pirate copier due to a lack of strong copy-protection mechanism over the component output..

 

So, players that are able to support HD over component are the rare ones. but industry frowns upon such practises.

[karlie]

I never realize that! until Marantz Support mentioned to me that DVD Players that's able to perform upscaling capability to 720p is in fact violating the industry norms! Currently only DVI and/or HDMI is/are 'legal' to do so...

Can anyone confirm this?  :o :o :o

 

Can you get a quote from Marantz?

I am quite sure this is not exactly true.

 

However there migt me other issues with for example the compatibility of 720p over componenet and copy protection scheme such as Macrovision; and there would be the issue (or simply the compatibilty of the component video norm vs the bandwidth of 720p signals).

 

Upscaling to 720p on analog does not create a HD digital copy as far as I know.

 

 

 

[Jag]

If upscaling is done by another equipment, then thats not covered......... but basically, no upscaling to be done over the analog component outputs.

 

Basically, no 720p outputs or higher are to be made available without HDCP encryption on DVDP and HD-DVDPs. Period.

 

(of course, there are legal loopholes here and there and violiations)

[karlie]

If upscaling is done by another equipment, then thats not covered......... but basically, no upscaling to be done over the analog component outputs.

Basically, no 720p outputs or higher are to be made available without HDCP encryption. Period.

 

For which standard?

For HD standards itis possible, but not for DVD standard... The DVD standard was afterwall written long before HDCP...

 

and by the way even for HD discs, all the major studios have said that they will support 720p over analog in their HD releases (it's a feature of HDCP that can be stitched ON/OFF by the software on the disc, not a mandatory item).

 

[avo1624705802]

Thr irony of this situation is that many Hollywood studios will allow hidef signal to pass thru analog output for the initial luanched of HD DVD and Blu Ray titles........while simple standard DVD is restricted by HDCP for upconverting. ???

[Jag]

We are talking about movies and blockbusters ah, not home-made HD movies.

 

The fact is that hollywood wants to protect its movies and prevent high quality copies from being made.

 

To say that HD-DVD and DVDs can be pass thru via analog component is opening up the blockbuster movies to low cost piracy syndicates.

 

They will of course support 720p analog, but they will not enable the disc to allow that. For them to protect themselves, they will set the disc to output hi-def with the best possible copy-protection mechanism that the player can provide.

[avo1624705802]

We are talking about movies and blockbusters ah, not home-made HD movies.

 

The fact is that hollywood wants to protect its movies and prevent high quality copies from being made.

 

To say that HD-DVD and DVDs can be pass thru via analog component is opening up the blockbuster movies to low cost piracy syndicates.

 

They will of course support 720p analog, but they will not enable the disc to allow that. For them to protect themselves, they will set the disc to output hi-def with the best possible copy-protection mechanism that the player can provide.

 

Well, most Hollywood Studios did a U-turn on the ICT/HDCP issue. Adoption rate is their main concern for hidef format not piracy at the moment.

 

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2006/tc20060327_546762.htm

 

[Jag]

Can't see the article leh..........

[avo1624705802]

Here's the full article:

 

By Cliff Edwards-Businessweek

 

 

Next-Gen DVDs' Blurry Picture

The battle between Blu-ray and HD-DVD was already tricky for consumers. But new content protection may mean buyers get even less than they might have hoped

 

 

After years of waiting, the new era of high-definition home theater has finally arrived. In April, Toshiba (TOSBF ) plans to introduce HD-DVD, its high-definition successor to the DVD player, two months ahead of rival consumer-electronics companies who plan to sell a competing format called Blu-ray Disc.

 

Electronics makers hope the new gear will keep sales in the $120 billion industry humming, while Hollywood hopes the lure of interactive features and crystal-clear pictures five times the resolution of current DVDs will jump-start slumping home-video sales.

 

"IT'S CRAZY."  Here's the problem: Both camps are shooting themselves in the foot before they get to the starting line. Consumers already were faced with the prospect of mass confusion, thanks to two next-generation DVD formats, whose disks do not work in each other's machines but look essentially the same. Remember Betamax versus VHS? At least then you could tell one tape from the other.

 

But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Turns out, most of the 20 million high-definition TVs sold over the past three years aren't capable of displaying the disks in their full resolution. Worse, at least one major studio intends to downgrade the picture even more unless consumers hook their players up through a special, pricey cable aimed at preventing piracy.

 

"It's crazy," says chief analyst Richard Doherty of consumer-research firm Envisioneering. "The sticker on your new player promises the equivalent of a high-performance car, but the fine print says you may be buying an Edsel instead."

 

OPTING OUT.  The new content-protection scheme would be the first time any consumer electronics purchaser -- not just those who try to break copyright laws -- could be penalized. In this case, even if you have a perfectly equipped TV, content providers retain the right to automatically downgrade the picture quality because of piracy concerns. Current DVD releases like Batman Begins and Walk The Line include software to prevent unauthorized duplication, but still play normally.

 

New software included on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD releases, however, will automatically slash the image, making it only marginally better than current DVDs, unless consumers have a relatively new connector and cable called HDMI to hook up players to their televisions. Only one in 20 HD sets sold to early adopters over the past few years has the right version of the connector. Only 15% of new sets sold this year will include it, and deliver the full 1080 resolution capable of showing such detail.

 

Sony execs say a majority of Blu-ray content, at least initially, will play at the highest resolution possible on a consumer’s HDTV, regardless of how the player is hooked up. Four major studios -- Sony Pictures (SNE ), 20th Century Fox (NWS ), Disney (DIS ), and Paramount (VIA ) say they initially will not use the new copy protection on their releases. Universal execs told BusinessWeek on Mar. 21 that they, too, will forego the protection. Execs at Warner Brothers declined to comment, but sources with knowledge of the studio's plans say "at least some" of the 20 HD-DVD releases planned through April will use the software. "What do you have then? A very expensive DVD player," says Sony Senior Vice-President Tim Baxter.

 

To make matters more confusing, Sony and other consumer-electronics companies are adding features to the next-generation players that then may "upconvert" -- boost the image quality -- so the same disk may look vastly different, depending on which machine you purchase and the size of the TV (see BW Online, 3/27/06, "Sony's Renaissance Geek"). Experts say both of the new formats shine on sets 50 inches or larger.

 

The confusion may be just enough for consumers to say good night, and good luck. Already, a growing number of so-called technology influencers and Web sites are recommending sitting out the first round of the new DVD wars.

 

Many believe the best bet for either format to gain acceptance now lies with next-generation game consoles. Sony plans a November worldwide release of its new PlayStation 3, which will include a Blu-ray player. Execs at Sony hope by then that enough new HD sets will be sold, with the right connectors, to make the player worthwhile. And Microsoft (MSFT ) has said it may add an HD-DVD player to its Xbox 360 in coming months. Until then, the crystal ball for crystal-clear movies remains fuzzy.

 

[karlie]

We are talking about movies and blockbusters ah, not home-made HD movies.

obviously

The fact is that hollywood wants to protect its movies and prevent high quality copies from being made.

indeed

To say that HD-DVD and DVDs can be pass thru via analog component is opening up the blockbuster movies to low cost piracy syndicates.

yes, but you are mixing HD formats and DVD.

For DVD (480i) the industry does not really care what you do on your component output: you may be upscaling from 480i to 720p, you still do not have a access to real digital hidef content in 720p: the amount of information is still 480i (in fact lower, some info is lost when converting 480i to 720p).

 

They will of course support 720p analog, but they will not enable the disc to allow that. For them to protect themselves, they will set the disc to output hi-def with the best possible copy-protection mechanism that the player can provide.

Ok let me set the record str8 as far as HD formats are concerned:

The HDCP license includes a capability to control what should and should not go out on the analog output (since they already have full control of the digital output).

If the discs require so, the analog ouput could force the signal to be downsampled to 480p for analog out.

 

This would mean that there is no way to get actual HiDef content without encryption.

This is totally different from preventing output of 720p from 480i. Upscaled 720p is not reasl HiDef content.

 

In any case, looking at consummer ire (I mean so many people have hidef displays without HDCP, or digital inputs) that all the major studios have said that they will allow 720p on analog out (until at least 2010, IIRC)

[desray]

Been busy the whole day...so till now just reading the thread...Wow! so many responses...

 

Anyway since karlie wanted some form of black and white regarding the claim...I have decided to post the email exchanges between me and Marantz Tech, Dan Miller. Read the last para for his reply.

 

Hi Raymond,

 

I have responded to your concerns below.

 

Dan Miller

Product Manager, Video

Marantz America, a division of D&M Holdings

(732) 502-0724

(732) 481-5168 (FAX)

 

From: Raymond Lim [mailto:desray@starhub.net.sg]

Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 10:42 AM

To: Dan Miller

Subject: Re: Marantz Technical Support Request

 

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

My Question: I am currently using a SHARP DLP Projector (model no: XV-Z2000) spotted with 1280 by 720 resolution. Its a 720p native resolution Projector no doubt about it. Somehow I just do not agreed with your statement, "...480p is the native resolution of DVD, so that graphics like subtitles or menus will never be razor sharp, even upscaled to 720p..."

 

Dan's Reply: My comment is factual. DVD has a native resolution of 720 x 480. Even the best outboard scalers (try this with a TeraNex or a Faroudja 5000 or a Snell & Wilcox interpolator) cannot upsample fine detail properly. This can be seen easily by setting the output of a computer to VGA and allowing the scaler in your projector to convert an Excel spreadsheet to fill the 1280 x 720 panel.

 

A scaler (whether built in to the DVD player or not) will look at individual pixels and some surrounding ones and try to guess what information would go into the gaps when the information is resized. It is always a guess. These guesses cause errors in extremely fine detail. This detail is rarely in actual picture content, however it exists in graphical content like on screen menus and/or subtitles.

 

My Question: And Yes you're right to mention that 1:1 pixel mapping is what we intended to achive in order to realize the full potential of the display. Is Marantz DV7600 Player able to support 720p in the first place? The answer is 'YES'! at least over HDMI mode if I might add. So if its able to support 720 (i.e. 1280 by 720 resolution) - it should simulate closely to 1:1 pixel mapping in the first place thereby achieving sharper and clearer PQ...Apparently this is not the case at the moment.

 

Dan's Reply: The DV7600 will output an exact 1280 x 720 image, upscaled, based on the 720 x 480 content in the disc. But you still haven’t confirmed whether your projector is adjusted to map 1:1 that information from a digital video input. If you cannot confirm this information (and the ONLY way is to generate a test signal that has detail at the one pixel resolution—you can use the Nokia Monitor Test for this, if you can adjust your computer to output 1280 x 720. See http://www.construnet.hu/nokia/Monitors/TEST/monitor_test.html for this free download), then there might be double scaling involved. You mention “simulate closely”. If this is not exact, then it might as well be off by a mile. When you use the above test, you will see instantly what I mean. The goal is only one scaler in the chain, either the DVD player or the projector.

 

My Question: Another interesting thing I discovered is that this Player does not allow upscaling to 720p over Component?! May I ask why? As most Players do support that...DENON 3910 for instance do support. Using Component on Marantz DV7600 Player forces display output in 480p resolution. That's unacceptable in my opinion.

 

Dan's Reply: There is no player legally sold in the world that does any higher than 480p over component video. Moments ago I confirmed this fact with the product manager at Denon (our sister company). These are guidelines created by the DVD forum, and we will not violate them. We are aware of a few players sold that are in violation of the rules. But none of them are from high profile companies; rather they are small “boutique” companies and they are too small for the DVD forum to worry about.

 

 

Regards

Dan Miller

Marantz

 

[c7221624705751]

guys cool off.. :)  component upconversoin is as illegal as multi region players.  it's just a kind of Memorendum of Understanding thing, where a DVD player maker agrees not to upconvert in order to use the "DVD-V" logo and call itself a "DVD" player.  So of course all official members of DVD Forum won't do it. All chinese makers are not members of DVD Forum so they can do whatever they want.  Sigma Designs, who makes the chip in these players, is a member, and therefore was sued by MPAA.

 

It all starts with macrovision, then evolves into CSS, for which they need to copy-protect the content.  As there is no hardware way to encrypt a HD component out (like what macrovision did for svideo), DVD Forum simply just say dun do it. (instead of creating another analogue encryption scheme similar to HDCP)

[Jag]

It is possible (thou illogical) that:

 

DVDPs are not allowed to output 720p via component, but HD-DVDs allow 720p via component.    Hmmm...... okaaaaay ???  ???  ???

 

 

Ok let me set the record str8 as far as HD formats are concerned:

The HDCP license includes a capability to control what should and should not go out on the analog output (since they already have full control of the digital output).

If the discs require so, the analog ouput could force the signal to be downsampled to 480p for analog out.

 

This would mean that there is no way to get actual HiDef content without encryption.

This is totally different from preventing output of 720p from 480i. Upscaled 720p is not reasl HiDef content.

 

Anyway, consumers are not interested in the actual implementation of the protection mechanism that the player can or cannot do. Instead, they are more interested whether 720p via analog component is possible or not? And whether it affects them (and us) or not. Most consumers are not interested how HDCP works, but rather, what is the most likely path towards Hi-def compatiblity. 720p (upscaled or native is irrelevant) via component or via HDMI?

 

 

IMO, its very likely that HD movies will be released such that 720p over analog component is not available. (following up from the previous format, DVD). I'm pretty sure that MPAA would rather allow upscaled 720p than native 720p via component.

 

So, by saying 720p (upscaled or native) via component is possible is technically true; but to be safe, its a good rule of thumb NOT to expect 720p via component.

 

[karlie]

As there is no hardware way to encrypt a HD component out (like what macrovision did for svideo)

I think Macrovision works as well on component as on Svideo: only screwing up de the sync (green) is required.

[karlie]

 

Universal won't downsample HD DVD content

[tsammyc]

I think Macrovision works as well on component as on Svideo: only screwing up de the sync (green) is required.

 

But that was only because VCRs of the time were sensitive to it and TVs were not. If you screw up the sync on component out, I imagine both digital displays and recorders would be immune.

[Jag]

Four major studios -- Sony Pictures (SNE ), 20th Century Fox (NWS ), Disney (DIS ), and Paramount (VIA ) say they initially will not use the new copy protection on their releases. Universal execs told BusinessWeek on Mar. 21 that they, too, will forego the protection. Execs at Warner Brothers declined to comment, but sources with knowledge of the studio's plans say "at least some" of the 20 HD-DVD releases planned through April will use the software.

 

If given a choice, it would be wiser to make plans for HD via HDMI instead of component; which is the more adviseable route. Karlie, may be right to say that 720p and above will be allowed, but thats the initial phase to get high HD adoption rates. What happens after the initial phase when 720p is disallowed?

 

My advise is to follow the final road to HD, that is thru HDMI. 720p via component is not exactly the "future-proof" way and is just a stop-gap measure. Sooner or later, 720p via component will be disallowed, and thus native 720p via component will be just as illegal as upscaled 720p via component.