limestone Posted March 8, 2006 Posted March 8, 2006 Thank you Junky! You’re the best! In preparation for the jump into the SVS bandwagon, I decided to see if the PB-10 would be sufficient for me. Thanks to Junky, my friend, who agreed to loan me his PB-10 for a few days to make some measurements in my HT room, in exchange for a “price” (Junky, it’s just between you and me.. keke) But anyway, I was elated to be able to audition the PB10 before I order it in the current SVS M.O (Advertisemet: BUY BUY BUY!!), to see if it really is what I need… I’ll just journal down my comments and experience in this thread, and hopefully it will be useful to some of you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ First Impressions: When I brought back the PB10, I realised that it was really bigger in real life! Whoa.. I’ve never seen a 10” sub this big before.. :P The port hole is so big, it’s fighting for space on the front baffle with the cone itself! Haha.. this is the biggest port I’ve seen in a sub. Here’s a closer look at the PB10: Here’s a look at the 10” cone: And here’s a canny shot of what’s inside the port hole! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Comparing the SW150 and PB10 response Ok! On to the measurements: My current sub is a Wharfedale SW150, and I corner-load the sub at the rear wall: I took the PB10, and corner-loaded it at the same position as my starting point: To my surprise, I found the 2 subs to give pretty similar response characteristics, from 40-200Hz: SW150: SVS PB10: In the 16-35Hz is where the PB10 really shines, and I could see that when I corner-load the PB10, I get an extended usable response down to 16Hz, which is very cool… 8) And finally, now that I have an accurate sub to reference the room, I can now see that I have room-related dips at 30Hz and 85Hz! I am so sad about this… wonder if Bass traps will help these dips. :’( ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sub Placement: Simple Rotation But anyway, I decided to spend some time with sub placement, to see if I can get a better room response at the listening position: I tried first to rotate the sub such that the cone now faces the side “red” wall, and I got a higher response: The purple line is the response when cone faces the side wall. We can see from here that I got 2-4dB gain by just rotating the sub! Definitely sub placement is important to optimize the sub in your HT environment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sub Placement: Move the Baby Elephant! Encouraged by the gain in response by simple rotation, I decided to spend more time to relocate the sub in various feasible places, just to see if I can get any better response from the sub. First, I tried locating the Sub at the left and right side of the sofa: Yellow is right of sofa, and green is left of sofa. Whoa!! There’s such a sharp dip from 40-70Hz, by just “pushing” the sub forward towards the right side of the sofa… I reckon the difference in distance between the rear corner and the right side of the sofa to be about 75-100cm. This shows us that even in a small room. Placement change can make a big difference in response. I doubt I’d use this placement. Second, I tried to relocate the sub to the centre of the rear wall, just behind the sofa: By doing simple rotation again, beige line being the cone facing the side wall, and teal line being the cone facing the sofa, I get this response: Sometimes the misconception that the “cone facing you got more OOmph” is not entirely true, as shown above.. ironically the response is better if I face the cone away from the sofa.. The graph seems to look good too… this position is definitely a potential position for the sub to be.. Third, I tried other alternative places, but the graphs came out so silly that I figured they are not worth my time. :P Compare the best of the 3 sub locations Let’s see which location is best for me to place the sub: Purple is the rear corner, Teal is the rear wall behind sofa, Green is by the side of the sofas. Well, the choice is pretty obvious. Though placing the sub by the side of the sofa gives me a nice “sidetable” to put my drinks, I’d be mad to begin BFD’ing the sub with such a response. And since the rear wall behind the sofa is not as good as corner-loading the sub, the choice is obvious: PB10’s final position is at the rear corner, with the cone facing the side wall. Now on to the BFD!! :P ------------------------------------------------------------------------- EQ-ing the PB10 Here’s the graph first, explanations later: The lower purple curve is the final BFD’d curve, and the yellow curve is final BFD’d curve with compensation. I had to do some serious cutting for the PB10! I applied 6 filters, starting with filter number: 1. Tame the peak at 100Hz 2. Tame the next peak at 70Hz 3. Tame the peak at 47Hz 4. Lower the entire 30-80Hz region 5. Boost the 35Hz dip slightly (I applied a +4dB boost) 6. Create a house curve by applying a 2-octave band width CUT of -25dB at 400Hz. The first 5 filters essentially flatten the 30-110Hz region to about 82dB, and the final filter slopes this region downwards. Once I finished with the tuning, the pink noise signal was noticeably a lot softer! I knew I had to compensate the gain. I compensated for the loss in volume, by turning up the volume of the PB10 up. After compensation, I get a pretty much a nice house curve. :) Integrating with my mains, I found that phase shift of 180 degrees was in order for the sub: Mains + Sub in 0 degree phase: Mains + Sub in 180 degree phase: As I mentioned before, I don’t quite like my centre speaker’s response, but that’s out of the scope for now… :P Great! My setup is finished… I recalibrated the volume of the sub with the rest of the 7 channels, and I was good to go!
limestone Posted March 8, 2006 Author Posted March 8, 2006 Subjective Listening Tests I excitedly turned on the entire system, and started to play some DVDs where I can test the PB10’s prowess… ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DTS – The DTS Experience Trailer: I always like the way the surrounds fly by you in this trailer, and also the way the sub can kick in when the logo shatters, and the final “Whoosh” bass part at the end of this trailer. When I played it, though, I still found the PB10 too soft, not enough of the tactile kick… so I turned the volume up somemore. (Hey Junky, don’t worry, your sub is still safe! :P ) Volume became comparable to my old Wharfedale, but the challenge is that at the last part of the trailer, the SW150 would usually bottom-out at that playing volume. I wanted to know if the PB10 could handle this volume well, so I played the trailer again, but this time, fixing my eyes on the cone and the port. Whoa.. the sub didn’t bottom out at all, and I saw/felt some serious air moving in and out of the port! Really enough to mess up your hair if you placed your face there! I was very impressed by the excursion limits of the PB10, cos it definitely has a higher excursion limit than my SW150, and still sounded solid throughout! The cone moved and moved, wow.. wonderful sight.. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stealth: The first chapter The beginning chapter of Stealth has lots of bombs and airplane engines roaring, and thus one of my favourite parts to use to audition a sub. (In fact, it was this part of the movie that made me convinced that I need a more powerful sub) The SW150 would bottom-out at this part (but only if I blast it to near-reference volume). And I seriously wanted to play this track at near-reference, so I again fixed my eyes on the PB10 cone throughout the bombing scene… Waalaa! The PB10 did not bottom-out at all, and pumped out volumes of air without sweat. However, I did spot a several instances of port-chuffing while playing the scene. It was audible when I was at the sub looking at the cone, but was not a audible problem once I retreated back to the sofa and replayed the track. I realised that the PB10 has enough 20-35Hz volume to shake my sofa, and that says a lot… I figured that I want to feel the effects of the sub, so I decided to turn off the bass-shakers and try again… yep, the PB10 is sufficient to replace my bass shakers… more natural than the bass-shakers too! :P ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Port-Chuffing! Before I moved on to the next DVD, I wanted to make some volume alignments with all the 7.1 channels. I fired up the pink noise and started adjusting… and I found out something about the PB10…. At pink noise playback at reference volume, there was quite a lot of port chuffing on the sub… Well, physics tells us that with a 10” sub, getting 20Hz out would require more air to be moved than using a 12” cone… thus the sheer size of the PB10… however, 20Hz output with a 10” sub at reference volumes does come at a compromise: port-chuffing (Port noise caused by excessive air trying to squeeze out of the port). A lot of air is required of this sub to playback 18-25Hz at reference level. I figure that if I were to add a high-pass filter of 25Hz to the sub, the port chuffing would be mostly gone. Either that or I lower the volume and buy another PB10 to collocate. :P I believe this should be a reason for getting a 12” sub instead of a 10”. But please take note (for those who are already thinking of upgrading to 12” subs) that I personally like my sub volume at pretty aggressive levels, AND I use a BFD… so the port-chuffing problem is not an issue for those who don’t plan to EQ the sub, or for those who don’t listen to DVDs at LOUD volumes, or for those who plan to get 2 10” subs. I have found the first “flaw” of this sub… but I can’t consider it a flaw… cos it’s merely physics..,. you can only move so much air with a 10” sub. Considering that PB10 is a 10”, I would say that it is already VERY impressive! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bourne Identity I have not watched the movie before, so I don’t know if there’s enough good LFE material in there for me to meat-up the sub. Why did I choose it still? Because I’m already tired after 2 hours of calibration and fiddling, and I just want to enjoy a good movie… :P At some parts of the show, I got a real kick from the bass… and one scene in particular, the PB10 really kicks in with it’s 20-35Hz prowess, when there’s suspense music playing in the background (not your typical LFE scene)… everytime the music outputs a bassy note, my sofa would shake, just like how my bass-shakers do the job… but this time, it’s more natural… :) Wow… My SW150 couldn’t do the job well enough in this aspect.. Another part where the scene is out in the busy Street of Zurich, where there’s lots of traffic. I spotted a melancholic LFE drone in the background (guessing that it’s in the 20-30Hz region), and I told myself “I wouldn’t have heard this part with my SW150!” Wow, the 20-30Hz material is brought out faithfully by the PB10… There’s no turning back from an SVS! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Final House Curve After all the volume adjustments in the past 3-4 hours, I was wondering how aggressive a bass-nut I was… I’d figure that I’d just plot a final graph of my preferred final volume setting of the mains + sub, and see exactly how steep the house curve was, so that in the future I know what is my preference. Before I plotted the graph, I told myself: “OK, this final graph will reflect my MINIMUM - SATISFIED house curve. Steeper would even be better, but any flatter, it would still be bearable, but I won’t enjoy myself very much.” So here we go: Yellow reflects my favourite housecurve. Green reflects the housecurve before I started on my DVDs. The Fletcher-Munson Curve at 80dB reference has a 14dB difference from 40Hz-100Hz, and my curve has about 12-13dB difference at that same range. Cool, I’m pretty close to the Fletcher-Munson estimate.. :P ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conclusion The PB10 is a serious piece of equipment for $850 (only if you buy it in the Mass Order! BUY BUY BUY!!), and honestly, though I’ve not heard the Paradigm PS-1000 nor the Velodyne CHT-10, I’m more than impressed with what I see and hear from this PB10… If I were not bothered by the 20-30Hz tactile bass, the Wharfedale SW150 would more than be sufficient for me. But I’m a fast becoming a bass-nut… and I really want that 20-30 natural feel. :P The PB10’s (300w) max volume would be similar to the SW150 (150w), which doesn’t sound quite right at first, given too that they are both 10” subs, and one sub has double the power of the other. In fact, it’s to SW150’s credit that it performed really well in the 35-100Hz region, against the PB10. However, PB10 is 300W, and the SW150 is 150W. Where does the extra 150w of the PB10 go to? It goes to power the 20-35Hz bass region, and that is where the important difference lies. SVS has really succeeded (in my opinion) in creating a sub design that drives a 10” cone’s capability to the MAX, and I probably feel I won’t get much better performance from another 10” sub. However, port-chuffing in the PB10 is a inherent characteristic of the 10” sub (not a manufacturing nor design flaw, may I repeat, it’s purely a physics limitation), solely because of the ambitious specs of the sub. So, kudos to SVS for making a cheap 10” sub that can rally in the 20Hz region! More on Port-chuffing, in case you guys get worried... My guess is that port-chuffing will occur only in the final 10% of the power reserve of the BASH amp, with the final 5% being regular Chuffing. For those who are not agressive bass-nuts, it shouldn't be a problem.. ::) Who should buy this sub? People who want maximum bang-for-their-buck, and simply must hear 20-35Hz bass regions. As for me? After last night, I think I’ve gone “Zhou Huo Ru Mo” in my personal pursuit of good bass, and I’ve made my cross over to a new level, and now I’m beginning to agree with the Gurus who simply insist on dual subs, or subs with 500w or above muscle… I would be satisfied with the PB10 (driven to the MAX), but I’d be excited with a PLUS or a dual PB10!! There’s no turning back once you find yourself in the sub-bass addiction, and there’s no turning back once you’ve heard an SVS. :P
Quest88 Posted March 8, 2006 Posted March 8, 2006 Moving from standard sub that can pump out only 35-40hz to those that are capable of 12hz+ is a big leap, good to see that you are very enthusiastic about it! Enjoy your new found bass standard! Wait till you get to experience the "bigger and badder" SVSubs. hehe
Jediknight Posted March 8, 2006 Posted March 8, 2006 Your listening levels must be VERY LOUD indeed, to bottom out that SW150! :o For me, even when playing as loud as I can tahan on bass heavy scenes like ROTK, Titan AE or SW Ep II and even THX and DTS trailer, I never had problem of bottoming out or even distortion... Needless to say, my PCi 20-39 is totally safe from bottoming out even on the notorious War of the Worlds. My ears will bottom out first!
Whyrlwynd Posted March 8, 2006 Posted March 8, 2006 hmmmm, will a pb10 become too boomy in a room roughly 2.5m x 3m?
keithwwk Posted March 8, 2006 Posted March 8, 2006 Hi Limestone, More I read your review more I feel my need of it!!
limestone Posted March 9, 2006 Author Posted March 9, 2006 Moving from standard sub that can pump out only 35-40hz to those that are capable of 12hz+ is a big leap, good to see that you are very enthusiastic about it! Enjoy your new found bass standard! Wait till you get to experience the "bigger and badder" SVSubs. hehe Thanks Quest! Heard you visited Junky's place too... haha...
limestone Posted March 9, 2006 Author Posted March 9, 2006 Your listening levels must be VERY LOUD indeed, to bottom out that SW150! :o For me, even when playing as loud as I can tahan on bass heavy scenes like ROTK, Titan AE or SW Ep II and even THX and DTS trailer, I never had problem of bottoming out or even distortion... Needless to say, my PCi 20-39 is totally safe from bottoming out even on the notorious War of the Worlds. My ears will bottom out first! Haha, Jedibro: You want your SW150 back? keke... Actually not really la, I consider the volume loud, yes, but not deafeningly loud. (which is of course my aim, haha). The problem is whenever a BFD/EQ is used to tame the peaks of a sub signal, and we compensate the volume, the sub will usually be made to work harder at the lowest frequencies. That's the problem I faced with both subs... I had to make them work harder to get the same volume as before-BFD-condition, but with a smoother response... ultimately causing a challenge on the amp and cones... the PB10 made it, the SW150 didn't. 8) Come my place la, then you can tell me whether I listen to my sub louder than you or not... keke... Actually hor... sigh.. by being so honest with my bass evaluation of the SW150 and the PB10, I wonder whether people will still buy my SW150 when I sell it on the Buy/Sell section... :( But no choice la, honesty on this forum comes at a price. ;) I decided that I'd rather be honest about my opinions and help people, cos in the end, only 1 person will buy over my sub, but many people will read this thread... :-\ Hey Keith: Get a BFD.. make sure you do!
synthesis1624705793 Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 hmmmm, will a pb10 become too boomy in a room roughly 2.5m x 3m? May not be, but probably physically large in that room. ;) Measure yourself
limestone Posted March 9, 2006 Author Posted March 9, 2006 May not be, but probably physically large in that room. ;) Measure yourself A port plug might be useful in a room of that size... but it's purely personal preference.
Quest88 Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 limestone: Yes, visited Junky. :) 1st time I heard the PB10ISD then. Anyway, Jedi raised a good point. Thought that the SW150 had the usual sort of protection against bottom-out like almost all of the smaller subs. Surprising if it doesn't. Not to worry about reselling. The SW150 will always have its market cos of the price range. To Whyrlynd, no lah, won't be boomy if you place it properly. Boominess is definitely not due to excessive power. My room also about that size with an SVS. Too bad you never audition when you visit the last time! :)
keithwwk Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Hi Quest, Can you tell us what was your impression abt PB10-ISD? :)
Jediknight Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Actually hor... sigh.. by being so honest with my bass evaluation of the SW150 and the PB10, I wonder whether people will still buy my SW150 when I sell it on the Buy/Sell section... :( That SW150 is actually a very good sub. Just can't go low like the SVS, but as your curves show, there's hardly any difference in the range it does cover. It also is probably a bit more "musical" than the SVS. Yes, it goes louder than what's comfortable for me at around 75-80dB even with the BFD (but not enough for you obviously). Probably what's causing it to bottom is the lower frequencies below 35Hz at those high levels. Should definitely be able to sell the SW150. It would be good value at around $400+.
Whyrlwynd Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 limestone: Yes, visited Junky. :) 1st time I heard the PB10ISD then. Anyway, Jedi raised a good point. Thought that the SW150 had the usual sort of protection against bottom-out like almost all of the smaller subs. Surprising if it doesn't. Not to worry about reselling. The SW150 will always have its market cos of the price range. To Whyrlynd, no lah, won't be boomy if you place it properly. Boominess is definitely not due to excessive power. My room also about that size with an SVS. Too bad you never audition when you visit the last time! :) I was trying to avoid the lure of the "dark side"........must... resist.... again.......
DIRTRUN Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 I was trying to avoid the lure of the "dark side"........must... resist.... again....... No need to resistlah, just get the Pb10 and succumb....erh I mean enjoy. Besides got discount somemore, where to find? Hehehe Regards. Dirtrun
dethangel Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 my my my .... ;D i see another convert :P Seriously, just get it... if not enough moola... save and save ... i did and i've not looked back though i'm having some problems with placement in my already cluttered bedroom :P .. sub is temporarily in my living room now and boy, my parents are already going "gaga" over the monster when they sit on the sofa, and yes - IT RATTLES.
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