Dirac Live Users Discussion Thread

[almikel]

On 04/05/2021 at 5:42 PM, Paul Spencer said:

But as a general rule, there are two things that are best done before you start calibrating. Room treatment and figuring out the bare bones bass solution

Hi Paul,

 

I agree room treatment is important, and I have quite a bit of large/deep porous absorption (Acoustisorb 3) in my room which cleans up >150Hz nicely, but its effectiveness is dropping <150Hz...and more specialist treatment would be needed to work below that...and typically the size would get beyond acceptable WAF metrics

 

Fortunately my leaky room just lets all the low bass out...but in the context of this thread, which has headed down a path of  "achieving good 'in room' bass/sub bass", were you referring to room treatment that operates at sub frequencies?

 

 

Throughout your Acoustic Consultant work have you found rooms (presumably with more rigid boundaries than my room) that needed specialist "bass traps" that couldn't achieve good bass through positioning/multiple subs/EQ?

 

5 hours ago, Paul Spencer said:

I have just one sub and a response of +/- 0.5 dB across the sub passband with very little variation across the 3 main seats.

that is an amazing result 

 

5 hours ago, Paul Spencer said:

Knowing that I only needed one, I built a horn sub and made sure it had loads of headroom.

Are you still using your T20 tapped horn or something else now?

 

cheers,

Mike

[almikel]

On 04/05/2021 at 11:29 AM, Satanica said:

The profile with the largest bass boost boosts by about +6dB.

 

19 hours ago, Midget said:

Satanica would you say this is an advisable max? Or just what your system required?

 

8 hours ago, Satanica said:

It really depends on what your system comprises of and what its capabilities are.

^this

6dB of boost may be too much for either the bass drivers (ie too much excursion) or amps (approaching/hitting clipping), or they may handle it easily, ie the drivers remain comfortably below Xmax and the amps don't come close to clipping...unfortunately it depends...

 

...good system design is required to not exceed driver/amp specs so you don't break stuff...

 

...I've managed to break plenty of stuff over the years - mostly toasted driver voice coils, but also poled drivers (exceeding their Xlim)

 

I would recommend to always be sympathetic to your gear - listen for distortion/stress, watch for large driver excursion, keep an eye on amp clip lights...and even take note of smell.

Amps working hard can have a smell - turn it down...

Drivers having a smell usually means you've overheated the voicecoil and the glues on the voicecoil have started to let go - turn down immediately...but likely you've already suffered damage.

 

I push my setup pretty hard, and back-off the volume at any signs of stress...

 

9 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Your job is to be guardian of the volume knob......

^this

Well managed, I can hit nightclub volumes if I want to on my setup, and occasionally I do...not often...but a sympathetic ear/eye/nose helps to mitigate the risk of gear failure, assuming you've got the design right at the start (ie driver excursion remaining comfortably under Xmax and amps remaining below clipping)

 

On 04/05/2021 at 11:49 AM, davewantsmoore said:

If you keep the overall SPL the same... and increase the bass from a driver..... you increase the cone movement... which increases distortion.

 

How much?   That depends.   It can be substantial.

 

If you monitor the maximum movement of the woofer (and know what the limit is) ... and are careful with the volume dial ... then you won't damage anything.

I agree with this, ie excursion = distortion

Better bass drivers have designs (eg copper sleeves) that help to minimise/reduce the distortion with excursion, but keeping excursion low is a good thing on any driver to keep distortion low.

Remaining below the Xmax (excursion limit) of a sub driver (actually any driver) is recommended - if you need more SPL, then you need an additional sub .

 

cheers

Mike

 

[Paul Spencer]

22 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

Fair enough, although your system is not typical. 

 

Out of interest what crossover/filters are you using with your mains?

 

What target curve(s) have you equalised to? 

 

The sub operates from 20 - 60 Hz then hands over to sealed 18" bass boxes (60 - 350 Hz).

 

The system is calibrated to the "Red Spade target curve" which is similar to the Harman curve but more generous with the bass.

 

17 hours ago, almikel said:

Hi Paul,

 

I agree room treatment is important, and I have quite a bit of large/deep porous absorption (Acoustisorb 3) in my room which cleans up >150Hz nicely, but its effectiveness is dropping <150Hz...and more specialist treatment would be needed to work below that...and typically the size would get beyond acceptable WAF metrics

 

Fortunately my leaky room just lets all the low bass out...but in the context of this thread, which has headed down a path of  "achieving good 'in room' bass/sub bass", were you referring to room treatment that operates at sub frequencies?

 

 

Throughout your Acoustic Consultant work have you found rooms (presumably with more rigid boundaries than my room) that needed specialist "bass traps" that couldn't achieve good bass through positioning/multiple subs/EQ?

 

that is an amazing result 

 

Are you still using your T20 tapped horn or something else now?

 

cheers,

Mike

 

Yes, still using the bass horn.

 

Treating bass is difficult, that's for sure and bass traps can be a hard sell. With broadband traps that are practical, yes they may not be effective as low as people would like, but there is usually a worthwhile benefit that you can both measure and notice subjectively. The same can't always be said for tuned traps. I've seen examples where they were tuned for a narrow range without offering an audible improvement. I've seen better results with broadband traps.

 

 

 

The biggest issue for most people is being willing to dedicate considerable real estate and funds

 

[rand129678]

On 04/05/2021 at 3:42 PM, Paul Spencer said:

Why is two subs a mistake?

 

I'm not an expert (I am a noob) but I read this by Harman Research

 

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by rand129678

[davewantsmoore]

8 hours ago, rand129678 said:

I'm not an expert (I am a noob) but I read this by Harman Research

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

 

For real world rooms, I think the best generalisations are:

 

1) One can be enough.

2) Placement is super important.

3) Extra sources can help solve problems not solvable by 2

4) EQ can really help deal with problems, but 2 and 3 hit the issue at the source

5) Getting good (representative) measurements, and getting a "flat" frequency response (no unintended lumps) is critical....  the way people typically view bass measurements understates the distortion.

6)  More sources obviously helps with distortion (both linear and non-linear) which people are often struggling with

 

So do you need more than one?   Eek... hard to say.    Just getting a second (one) and chucking it in...... is not a magic solve, by any stretch.

[pcking]

Hi, anyone here have any experience using Dirac Live, I intended to run it this weekend but wanted 

any tips before embarking with it . Using it with NAD M33. 
Cheers Paul.

 

 

[cazzesman]

I have it set up in a minidsp D22.    It was a touch temperamental initially but all good now.   I had a usb cable issue so got a new one and all good.

 

have the manual handy.    Follow the steps and all good.    Really all the mic placements are just a guide so don’t get bent out of shape getting that millimetre perfect.     
 

99.9% of users will tell you can play around with the eventual frequency response curve all you like  but most go back to the built in Harman Curve.

 

Good luck.   You can’t break anything so have fun.

 

it will do wonders for the sound.   Guaranteed.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[Snoopy8]

The M33 must be on and connected to the same network before you start Dirac Live.  This is because the license is tied to the hardware.

 

This video is for the older version, but it will give you a good idea of the process.  Note that this is for an AVR, so there will be differences in number of speakers and  sitting positions, but the process is the same.

 

 

[pcking]

Thanks for your reply much appreciated, I noticed you have a Fiio M11 Pro

I bought the M11 ( just before the AKM fire ) . What’s your thoughts on it 

I do find the SW a bit buggy sometimes, but it sounds great.

I’m just using a pair of 1more Triple Drive ear buds, would like to try the 

balance out one day. 
Thanks Paul.

 

4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

The M33 must be on and connected to the same network before you start Dirac Live.  This is because the license is tied to the hardware.

 

This video is for the older version, but it will give you a good idea of the process.  Note that this is for an AVR, so there will be differences in number of speakers and  sitting positions, but the process is the same.

 

 

Thanks Snoop 

[steve_]

i just set this up on my emotiva xmc 1 and its so clear its drilling a hole in my brain compared to using Audyssey on my marantz sr7008

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

My main tip is keep all curve fiddling to under 500hz using the curtains in the software, my curtains were set at 150hz the last time I used it.

[Ars Paart]

A few tips:

1. For setup, read https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2-mic-speaker-levels/ 

2. Buy a cheap telescopic/boom microphone stand if you haven't already got one. Something like https://www.swamp.net.au/vocal-microphone-stand. You won't regret it.   

3. Mark out where you want the microphone positions to be (eg use some tape). If it's off by even a few inches it can make a big difference. 

4. If possible use an individually calibrated microphone.  And make sure to use the correction file for the axis you're using. 

5. As someone said above, use the curtains. 

6. If you want Harman curves as targets, you can download them from various sites. Easier than building them yourself. 

 

 

 

[Snoopy8]

56 minutes ago, Ars Paart said:

3. Mark out where you want the microphone positions to be (eg use some tape). If it's off by even a few inches it can make a big difference. 

There is something wrong with your room or setup if you need that level of precision.  Every measurement can change slightly in the same position, due to natural variations in the room, and the differences will far exceed any error due to the microphone position.

 

Besides, Dirac is taking an averaging approach...

Edited June 18, 2021 by Snoopy8
Typo

[lucmor444]

Adjust target curve in low frequencies to ensure you are restricting the amount of gain Dirac is applying to any nulls (I keep any boost to 4db or less).

 

Keep target curve line straight on the speaker when rolling off DIrac from below the crossover point to the subwoofer.

 

There are a couple of good and brief videos on the Arcam YouTube website.

[lucmor444]

 I also use tape to mark my measurement points - probably not necessary as mentioned but I do like precision!

[Satanica]

I think the main listening position measurement should have the microphone placed as accurately as possible and the others don't have to be particularly accurate.

Dirac Live does not boost nulls.

[cazzesman]

2 hours ago, pcking said:

Thanks for your reply much appreciated, I noticed you have a Fiio M11 Pro

I bought the M11 ( just before the AKM fire ) . What’s your thoughts on it 

I do find the SW a bit buggy sometimes, but it sounds great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love it.  Use it everyday all day bluetooth'd into the car system.    Use it outside with both wired and bluetooth headphones.

 

Very few glitches if any to speak of.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[lucmor444]

3 hours ago, Satanica said:

I think the main listening position measurement should have the microphone placed as accurately as possible and the others don't have to be particularly accurate.

Dirac Live does not boost nulls.

Sorry - wrong phrasing - Dirac does attempt to correct a dip in a speaker's frequency response.  I believe you should seek to limit that correction if it too large as that can overdrive the speaker.  I personally seek to limit that correction to around 4db in the lower frequencies.

[betty boop]

12 hours ago, lucmor444 said:

Sorry - wrong phrasing - Dirac does attempt to correct a dip in a speaker's frequency response.  I believe you should seek to limit that correction if it too large as that can overdrive the speaker.  I personally seek to limit that correction to around 4db in the lower frequencies.

I have regularly seen boosts reported as much as 12db which is plain crazy and sending folks AVRs understandably into protection and shut down. definitely folks need to be wary and limit boosting...

[Satanica]

6 hours ago, betty boop said:

I have regularly seen boosts reported as much as 12db which is plain crazy and sending folks AVRs understandably into protection and shut down. definitely folks need to be wary and limit boosting...

 

I've got other forms of EQ being DEQX and JRiver and they can apply boost much larger than that. 

 

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/dirac-room-correction-interview

Audioholics: What is the maximum boost / cut your room correction products will apply? Is it possible for users to set a limit in this respect (i.e. no more than 3dB of boost)?

Mathias Johansson: Normally, Dirac Live does not allow you to boost more than 10 dB. You can lower this by adjusting the target curve. However, narrow dips (nulls) are never compensated, as they are always position dependent in real acoustic spaces.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Satanica

[pcking]

Hi , is this the Dirac Live Activation page ? .

 I bought the full version and was sent a link to their site,

I logged in here but I get this message. Do also have to download 

the LE version 1st , delete it , then download the full version.

Cheers Paul.

[Snoopy8]

Check your email including spam folder. You need to verify your login.

 

No, use same version of software on your computer.

[pcking]

10 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Check your email including spam folder. You need to verify your login.

 

No, use same version of software on your computer.

Thanks Snoop, that worked.
ps . I hate computers.

[pcking]

I guess this the correct App for the Full Version ? 
looks the same as the LE Version 

Thanks again for your help.

Paul.

[pcking]

RATS !!!