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I am thinking of obtaining a record clamp, does anyone have any opinions about them and recommendation for it? 

Somewhere, I read some clamp is more suitable for belt drive and others for direct drive turntables?

 

One I am looking at is Audio Technica AT618 as shown picture below.

 

Edit: Turntable is Thorens TD321 with RB300 arm.

Audio-Technica AT618 Disc Stabilizer Record Weight - Roxy ...

Edited by vinilink
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1 hour ago, vinilink said:

does anyone have any opinions about them 

 

 

they certainly will :)   

 

OK,  2 main types,  one is a heavyish weight, the other type clamps or screws onto the centre spindle.  For turntables with sprung suspension, or weak bearings,  the heavy weight type are a bad idea - it doesn't really matter how they are driven (idler, belt, or direct).

 

As to whether they affect the sound - it's highly debateable.  I think the main advantage is to make sure the record is held firmly.  If nothing else, stops them spinning under the record brush :) 

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Ok here is my experience.

 

I started with a center weight but found it kicked up the outer edge of the LP sometimes. When I used the linear arm the carriage would touch a warped LP so I made a reflex clamp similar to the Mitchel which worked well to flatten all but the very worst warps.

 

I now use a center weight and peripheral ring which is by far the best for SQ and flattening almost any warped LP.

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I tried a couple, and for me my TT sounded cleaner without them, but they may well work on some TT's.

 

When I did this test, there was two of us in the room, and we both said the same thing.

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I have a mofi heavy weight and on the mofi Ultradeck the benefit was noticeable, now have Technics sl1210gae. Benefit is still there but not has noticeable.

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On 18/06/2021 at 1:10 PM, aussievintage said:

 

 

they certainly will :)   

 

OK,  2 main types,  one is a heavyish weight, the other type clamps or screws onto the centre spindle.  For turntables with sprung suspension, or weak bearings,  the heavy weight type are a bad idea - it doesn't really matter how they are driven (idler, belt, or direct).

 

As to whether they affect the sound - it's highly debateable.  I think the main advantage is to make sure the record is held firmly.  If nothing else, stops them spinning under the record brush :) 

Does that mean that it would be detrimental on a Linn LP12 then? honest question, I've been wondering about that

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1 hour ago, Willmax said:

Does that mean that it would be detrimental on a Linn LP12 then? honest question, I've been wondering about that

 

On a suspended turntable, the weight would have to be taken into account when adjusting the springs.  The added mass might change the resonance of the platter in a detrimental way as well.

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1 hour ago, Willmax said:

Does that mean that it would be detrimental on a Linn LP12 then? honest question, I've been wondering about that

 

This is a difficult question to answer, it would certainly effect the suspension, which would need to be adjusted depending on the weight of the ring/clamp

 

It may be better to use a reflex clamp like the Mitchel.

 

The issue with adding clamps peripheral rings and other addons is what part of the reproduction does it effect. To give an example if the a ring and center weight are added and in conjunction with the platter/mat it only damps HF vibration and has no effect on LF vibration the sound will become muddy. BUT if the damping is wide band and damps all vibration equally SQ will improve significantly.

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2 hours ago, Willmax said:

Does that mean that it would be detrimental on a Linn LP12 then? honest question, I've been wondering about that

Ivor definitely recommended against any sort of clamp as they 'dulled' the sound.  I've not pursued the matter at all and don't know what Linn currently recommends, but as usual much of this hobby depends on what you like rather than what someone else likes.

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Thanks for the replies, I'll keep it simple with the Linn and it saves me a few bucks  as well 😉

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After reading posts, I will give it a miss as @Willmax decided and save a few bucks too. Unless someone using a clamp on their Thorens tt and benefitting it from using the clamp, especially TD321 as that is my current tt. 

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9 hours ago, Willmax said:

Thanks for the replies, I'll keep it simple with the Linn and it saves me a few bucks  as well 😉

 

I used a Michell clamp on my Thorens, never really discerned any difference better or worse. I still have it if you want a lend

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I also have a Thorens TD321. I use the Mitchel clamp but only to assist with flattening out any warps. Can't say I've ever noticed any changes in sound quality, good or bad. I've never used a weight due to concerns over bearing wear issues.

 

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how much of its based on sales and marketing vs fact? Im in my 50s, I don't seem to remember these weights being around in the 70s/ 80s? are they a more recent thing? plus surely they strain the motors?

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28 minutes ago, sansuiuser said:

how much of its based on sales and marketing vs fact? Im in my 50s, I don't seem to remember these weights being around in the 70s/ 80s? are they a more recent thing? plus surely they strain the motors?

 

5 minutes ago, jeromelang said:

the sonic benefits of using a clamp need to be "visually" perceived....

 

I don't use one to improve the sound so much as to secure the record for brushing before play and to flatten warps somewhat.

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how much drag the needle has on the record usually depends on the type of surface material the record is placed on.

 

has anyone done comparisons the amount of drag that varies between these materials on the same table?

 

Felt mat

Arcylic

Rubber

Aluminium/Copper/Steel

Others?

 

 

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9 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

I don't use one to improve the sound so much as to secure the record for brushing before play and to flatten warps somewhat.

 

how do you flatten the records when they are concave with the outside rim elevated?

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Just now, jeromelang said:

 

how do you flatten the records when they are concave with the outside rim elevated?

 

You don't - obviously.  You need a ring on the outside for that.  However, even if the rim is elevated the weight secures the center part of record properly so the record plays better than with no weight.

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2 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

You don't - obviously.  You need a ring on the outside for that.  

 

so let's have no talk about a clamp being used to flatten records - when they are only effective 50% of the time.

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Just now, jeromelang said:

 

so let's have no talk about a clamp being used to flatten records - when they are only 50% effective.

 

You didn't even read the rest ofmy post.  Go away and don't give me orders!

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I use the Sota Reflex Clamp.

Why?

Cause I have a Sota Vacuum turntable. Never used one on my Linn. I am in two minds with Clamps though. Ivor says they deaden the sound, others might say they deaden the ringing or noise in the record created by the stylus.

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centre washer raises the record, clamp exerts pressure around the outside of the label... flattens minor warps in both directions.

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1 hour ago, r3x said:

centre washer raises the record, clamp exerts pressure around the outside of the label... flattens minor warps in both directions.

Well said, as can be seen in the video below:

 

 

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Weights/clamps couple the LP to the platter so if they deaden the sound then what is happening is they are highlighting other deficiencies in the chain. Any form of damping (other than viscous) that has a negative impact on SQ is  highlighting other issues, narrow vs broad band damping.
 

Lets look at the Physics of the stylus LP interface. The LP is exerting a force on the stylus (the groove modulation) classical physics tells us the stylus will push back on the LP with equal and opposing force. So the stylus is vibrating the LP, this vibration energy must be dealt with or the result will be  colored reproduction. With the correct platter material one that has the same acoustic impedance as the LP, vibration energy transfers to the platter where it will travel through until it meets the bottom or another dissimilar material where some or all will reflect back. If the platter is say POM the damping is good enough in a thick platter that the returning energy is low enough not to cause erroneous vibration of the stylus masking fine detail.

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2 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

So the stylus is vibrating the LP,

 

This effect, in a well designed turntable, should be very very minor due to the HUGE difference in mass when the LP is coupled to the platter properly.  If a tweak can improve it, well and good, but on a good turntable, I would hope it would be so small an improvement that it will not readily be heard.  This is why, I mainly use a clamp/weight for more macro reasons, like being able to use a brush without the record spinning, or reducing warps.

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10 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

This effect, in a well designed turntable, should be very very minor due to the HUGE difference in mass when the LP is coupled to the platter properly.  If a tweak can improve it, well and good, but on a good turntable, I would hope it would be so small an improvement that it will not readily be heard.  This is why, I mainly use a clamp/weight for more macro reasons, like being able to use a brush without the record spinning, or reducing warps.

 

Drop the stylus on an LP with the volume control down and place a stethoscope on the plinth. Another good test if you have 2 arms is to place 1 stylus in the runout groove and listen to it while the other arm plays music, you will be surprised how much of the music is picked up by the stylus in the runout groove.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

 

Drop the stylus on an LP with the volume control down and place a stethoscope on the plinth. Another good test if you have 2 arms is to place 1 stylus in the runout groove and listen to it while the other arm plays music, you will be surprised how much of the music is picked up by the stylus in the runout groove.

 

 

Interesting.

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1 minute ago, Warren Jones said:

This is measured from the bearing, but it shows how much energy the stylus imparts into the LP.

 

https://korfaudio.com/blog44

 

Quite amazing really.  Could go a long way to explaining a lot of preferences with regard to turntables with different plinths and damping applies etc etc

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On 23/06/2021 at 6:54 AM, Grizzly said:

 

I used a Michell clamp on my Thorens, never really discerned any difference better or worse. I still have it if you want a lend

Thank you, perhaps next time you come over for a listen, by the way let me know if you need me to adjust that bracelet for you 😉

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On 23/06/2021 at 4:00 PM, aussievintage said:

 

This effect, in a well designed turntable, should be very very minor due to the HUGE difference in mass when the LP is coupled to the platter properly.  If a tweak can improve it, well and good, but on a good turntable, I would hope it would be so small an improvement that it will not readily be heard.  This is why, I mainly use a clamp/weight for more macro reasons, like being able to use a brush without the record spinning, or reducing warps.

 

there you go again - clamp only reduce warps 50% of the time.

 

 

 

 

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Nobody has yet in this thread talk about the stylus drag issue.

If a system has adequate soundstaging capabilities, the detrimental effect of stylus drag can easily be perceived.

 

The other issue is why some manufacturers claim heavy weighs deaden the sound.

 

Anytime a chunky piece of metallic material is brought physically near to the cartridge (not necessarily have to be placed over the spindle), there is some sort of timbre-changing effect imposed onto the cartridge. There is an explainable reason based in physics.

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11 minutes ago, jeromelang said:

 

there you go again - clamp only reduce warps 50% of the time.

 

 

 

 

 

Amazing comprehension skills there !!!!  But you still can't take a hint. Piss off Jerome

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On 18/06/2021 at 1:40 PM, aussievintage said:

 

 

they certainly will :)   

 

OK,  2 main types,  one is a heavyish weight, the other type clamps or screws onto the centre spindle.  For turntables with sprung suspension, or weak bearings,  the heavy weight type are a bad idea - it doesn't really matter how they are driven (idler, belt, or direct).

 

As to whether they affect the sound - it's highly debateable.  I think the main advantage is to make sure the record is held firmly.  If nothing else, stops them spinning under the record brush :) 

Actually it does, direct drives like sl1200mk2 and SP10mk2 if platter weight is increased wow and flutter goes up, with the new coreless motor it get worse, add more weight and wow goes up significantly so any DD with similar feedback loop like Technics I would only recommend a clamp not a weight. Also the bearing on sl1200 are not up to the job of a weight increase either.

Chris

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On 25/06/2021 at 1:01 PM, jeromelang said:

Nobody has yet in this thread talk about the stylus drag issue.

If a system has adequate soundstaging capabilities, the detrimental effect of stylus drag can easily be perceived.

 

The other issue is why some manufacturers claim heavy weighs deaden the sound.

 

Anytime a chunky piece of metallic material is brought physically near to the cartridge (not necessarily have to be placed over the spindle), there is some sort of timbre-changing effect imposed onto the cartridge. There is an explainable reason based in physics.

What??? Not in the physics I studied..

Chris

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