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I am curious anyone heard  the Gaia>>>M Scalar>>>> Dave ...

 

I tested my Dave with M Scalar and really amazed with the improvement ... I was thinking what improvement we might have adding Gaia to the chain ?

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Hey Mason,   To be Frank I’m not surprised you aren’t hearing any difference between those three sources. The sp2000 is an impressive device, but it’s still a portable device optimised for o

I agree with Ray H's comments.  Get yourself a decent streamer like a Lumin U1 Mini or an Auralic Aries G1 / G2 or G2.1.  I am sure you will hear a definite improvement with either of these 2 streamer

Ditch the Node and buy a better source rather than try the scaler.    The Dave at least deserves the chance to sound close to its best.

11 hours ago, Mason Safari said:

Hi 

I am curious anyone heard  the Gaia>>>M Scalar>>>> Dave ...

 

I tested my Dave with M Scalar and really amazed with the improvement ... I was thinking what improvement we might have adding Gaia to the chain ?

Are you talking about a Denafrips or the IsoAcoustics feet?

 

Cant see adding a DAC to the chain with a DAC (DAVE) already in there would be the way to go. If anything, you would swap out a DF with a DAVE.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

Are you talking about a Denafrips or the IsoAcoustics feet?

 

Cant see adding a DAC to the chain with a DAC (DAVE) already in there would be the way to go. If anything, you would swap out a DF with a DAVE.

Thanks

I meant Denafrips Gaia, I dont believe its a DAC but a digital to digital converter ... I have read that someone add it to Chord Qutest and had a good result ....I expect improvement add it to the M Scalar>>>> Dave  chain...

Edited by Mason Safari
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Posted (edited)

I don't know about the Gaia though I've had fantastic results with the Mutec MC-3+USB. Even better once I added an Afterdark Emperor Double Crown OCXO master clock. ;)

 

Replacing the Mutecs built in switching power supply for a Super Fared 3 linear power supply soon. Will be interesting to see what difference that makes. :)

 

Not sure if relevant to you but the Mutec shares some of the features of the Gaia so I thought I'd mention it.

Edited by MattyW
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20 hours ago, Mason Safari said:

Hi 

I am curious anyone heard  the Gaia>>>M Scalar>>>> Dave ...

 

I tested my Dave with M Scalar and really amazed with the improvement ... I was thinking what improvement we might have adding Gaia to the chain ?

Cant imagine the Gaia is going to help. The MScalar is reclocking the signal, so it will surely overide any contribution from the Gaia?

Ittaku here is the expert on such matters though.

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4 hours ago, tripitaka said:

Cant imagine the Gaia is going to help. The MScalar is reclocking the signal, so it will surely overide any contribution from the Gaia?

Ittaku here is the expert on such matters though.

Thanks, it makes sense but then this should be true about Denafrips DACs as well as they have upsampling ?I appreciate if Ittaku gives comments ...

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13 hours ago, Mason Safari said:

Thanks, it makes sense but then this should be true about Denafrips DACs as well as they have upsampling ?I appreciate if Ittaku gives comments ...

@Ittaku is the man, for sure.

Yes upsampling is done by most dacs, but FWIW my dac gives me the option whether to additionally reclock or use the clock from the incoming signal. It makes sense to pick the most accurate unit in the chain for this purpose. Which in your case wouldn't be the Gaia?

Edited by tripitaka
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I think the DDC will make a difference.  Check out this video from Goldensound where explains what a DDC does:

 

 


Also check out this review of the Gaia where it was summed up that improvement scales up with a  better DAC:

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, tripitaka said:

Cant imagine the Gaia is going to help. The MScalar is reclocking the signal, so it will surely overide any contribution from the Gaia?

Ittaku here is the expert on such matters though.

It very much depends on how the reclocking is done on the mscaler, and subsequently the DAC itself, and what input you are receiving it on. The mscaler's clocking is so far removed from upstream that it can add up to 0.6s of latency when upscaling, but the clocks up and downstream of each other are going to be multiples of the same timing. Therefore the timing signal coming in on a device *can* influence the signal downstream, even if it's not the signal's final clock signal jitter itself. Generally the better the DAC, the more resistant it is to such effects. It's impossible to quantify these things but I would hazard a guess and say the Gaia would make negligible improvement - if any - to such a high spec DAC/scaler combo. That said, I'm sure if someone bought one, they'd likely hear night and day differences, even if there are none. I'd say spend your money elsewhere though if you're looking for real improvements.

Edited by Ittaku
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18 hours ago, tripitaka said:

Cant imagine the Gaia is going to help. The MScalar is reclocking the signal, so it will surely overide any contribution from the Gaia?

Ittaku here is the expert on such matters though.

The Gaia and Mscaler are doing different tasks.. Gaia cleans and reclocks, but it doesn't upsample the signal. The Mscaler is an upsampler/upscaler.

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33 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

 

That the devices do different things was not in dispute as far as I noticed, though perhaps I misunderstood the original poster in thinking he wanted to put both a Gaia AND an Mscalar before his Dac.  

Edit: In which case the virtues of one device might be cancelled by the other (which device is the clock coming from? which power supply is the last to influence key circuits? Other unanticipated negative interactions/feedback at the squadrillionth level at which the hoped-for improvements might appear?). Still, only one way to find out-

The OP should spend their money however they like 🙂

 

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@tripitaka no, you didn't misunderstand his post 🙂. I perhaps should have been a bit clearer. The real benefit of a Denafrips Gaia is cleaning up a  "dirty" USB signal from an audio PC and then feeding the data to a DAC.  Therefore cleaning the USB signal before feeding the Mscaler > DAC could only be a benefit. 

Mileage of course may vary in terms of others digital sources as it would depend on their ability to eliminate jitter.

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1 hour ago, Niktech said:

@tripitaka no, you didn't misunderstand his post 🙂. I perhaps should have been a bit clearer. The real benefit of a Denafrips Gaia is cleaning up a  "dirty" USB signal from an audio PC and then feeding the data to a DAC.  Therefore cleaning the USB signal before feeding the Mscaler > DAC could only be a benefit. 

Mileage of course may vary in terms of others digital sources as it would depend on their ability to eliminate jitter.

 

I associate 'dirty' with electrical noise and I would definitely sign up for your reasoning if the source was an electrically noisy PC. 

OTOH, if it's a source even halfway commensurate with a Dave dac, I would doubt it there is much to gain on that front.

As for jitter, the high grade clock in the Gaia would do the trick, but does this really have merit if the signal gets reclocked again by the upscaler (I'm not sure?), in which case you may as well be stringing interconnects together.

 

Anyway, someone who can afford a Dave might also be able to afford such experimentation and report back in due course to the good members of StereoNet 🙂

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5 hours ago, Ittaku said:

It very much depends on how the reclocking is done on the mscaler, and subsequently the DAC itself, and what input you are receiving it on. The mscaler's clocking is so far removed from upstream that it can add up to 0.6s of latency when upscaling, but the clocks up and downstream of each other are going to be multiples of the same timing. Therefore the timing signal coming in on a device *can* influence the signal downstream, even if it's not the signal's final clock signal jitter itself. Generally the better the DAC, the more resistant it is to such effects. It's impossible to quantify these things but I would hazard a guess and say the Gaia would make negligible improvement - if any - to such a high spec DAC/scaler combo. That said, I'm sure if someone bought one, they'd likely hear night and day differences, even if there are none. I'd say spend your money elsewhere though if you're looking for real improvements.

Thanks Ittaku

I have been trying not to be Prejudice   about my gears so far and that's the reason I am buying and selling a lot as I just try to trust to my ears...the fact is I wanted to sell ( still I might) my Dave but when I took it to a reseller shop and connect it to MScalar I found real improvements , before that I tried TT2 with M scalar and the improvements were not that much ( or maybe was not set up correctly ) ... also as I might not be professional I need to try things home and for longer period...unfortunately  there is no Gaia reseller to try so I am checking if there is pre owned to buy and try ...

also from The Hans Beekhuyzen review I think he believed the improvement also depends on how your streamer is good , I am using NODE 2i  and this streamer doesn't have usb so I am using toslink and Coax output and booth ( to my eras) have same sound ...so not sure if that also important or not ?

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7 minutes ago, Mason Safari said:

Thanks Ittaku

I have been trying not to be Prejudice   about my gears so far and that's the reason I am buying and selling a lot as I just try to trust to my ears...the fact is I wanted to sell ( still I might) my Dave but when I took it to a reseller shop and connect it to MScalar I found real improvements , before that I tried TT2 with M scalar and the improvements were not that much ( or maybe was not set up correctly ) ... also as I might not be professional I need to try things home and for longer period...unfortunately  there is no Gaia reseller to try so I am checking if there is pre owned to buy and try ...

also from The Hans Beekhuyzen review I think he believed the improvement also depends on how your streamer is good , I am using NODE 2i  and this streamer doesn't have usb so I am using toslink and Coax output and booth ( to my eras) have same sound ...so not sure if that also important or not ?

I'm not sure I'd pay any attention to reviews - the ratings on reviews are simply proportional to price, and many things reviewed make no audible difference whatsoever. I'd love to be able to give you a definitive answer, but I can't, as there's no such thing. In general it's about isolation of one device from another that matters when it comes to digital - the data is identical whether you use a $30 raspberry pi versus a $100,000 streamer, but they're not going to sound the same unless the next device in the chain is 100% isolated from the noise of the streamer. No such thing exists in the real world, but they can be isolated "enough" such that there can be no demonstrable measurable effect and almost certainly not audible by humans. As you add more devices in the chain, you get more and more isolated from the upstream device - if you have a streamer, then reclocker, then mscaler, then dac, it would be very hard for any noise from the streamer to affect your dac, but not entirely impossible.

 

The fact that the optical and coaxial sound the same to you is a GOOD thing and I'll explain why - it's rare for people to think they sound the same. There may be an audible difference, or there may not, but if you can't hear a difference then it means at the very least, you're not prone to expectation bias making you think one should sound better. Additionally, whether there is an audible difference or not, if YOU can't hear any difference then it really doesn't matter what anyone else says about "X should be better."

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1 hour ago, Mason Safari said:

Thanks Ittaku

I have been trying not to be Prejudice   about my gears so far and that's the reason I am buying and selling a lot as I just try to trust to my ears...the fact is I wanted to sell ( still I might) my Dave but when I took it to a reseller shop and connect it to MScalar I found real improvements , before that I tried TT2 with M scalar and the improvements were not that much ( or maybe was not set up correctly ) ... also as I might not be professional I need to try things home and for longer period...unfortunately  there is no Gaia reseller to try so I am checking if there is pre owned to buy and try ...

also from The Hans Beekhuyzen review I think he believed the improvement also depends on how your streamer is good , I am using NODE 2i  and this streamer doesn't have usb so I am using toslink and Coax output and booth ( to my eras) have same sound ...so not sure if that also important or not ?

There was a Gaia for sale in the classifieds by @Klaus220 a week or two ago for $1800. I'm not sure if it sold.

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2 minutes ago, Niktech said:

There was a Gaia for sale in the classifieds by @Klaus220 a week or two ago for $1800. I'm not sure if it sold.

I have checked that, status is sold :( 

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2 minutes ago, Mason Safari said:

I have checked that, status is sold :( 

Bugger, that was nicely priced too.

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Posted (edited)

I don't want to put words in @Ittaku's mouth, but is it possible the MScalar demo was helping your dac mainly by helping to isolate it electrically?

 

Given that your streamer is only middle of the road, have you instead considered trialling a standard USB reclocker (with separate LPS of course) which would also achieve what Ittaku was talking about. And let your excellent DAC do the 'heavy lifting' once suppied with a (relatively) noiseless input?

 

That would save you $10K (on new pricing) if it did the trick 🙂

 

 

Edited by tripitaka
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, tripitaka said:

 

I associate 'dirty' with electrical noise and I would definitely sign up for your reasoning if the source was an electrically noisy PC. 

OTOH, if it's a source even halfway commensurate with a Dave dac, I would doubt it there is much to gain on that front.

As for jitter, the high grade clock in the Gaia would do the trick, but does this really have merit if the signal gets reclocked again by the upscaler (I'm not sure?), in which case you may as well be stringing interconnects together.

 

Anyway, someone who can afford a Dave might also be able to afford such experimentation and report back in due course to the good members of StereoNet 🙂

Thanks Tripitaka

I am, using NODE 2i as streamer... the fact is there is no fund left ... so will need to sell things so I can buy things  and that's what I am doing...I have not even bought the M Scalar yet ...

Edited by Mason Safari
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I would have thought that if you paid the kind of money a Dave costs, it should sound fantastic without having to buy more equipment for it to sound good?

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Ditch the Node and buy a better source rather than try the scaler. 
 

The Dave at least deserves the chance to sound close to its best.

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2 hours ago, jim13 said:

I would have thought that if you paid the kind of money a Dave costs, it should sound fantastic without having to buy more equipment for it to sound good?

Dave is great by itself...it was something else with M Scalar when I tested...

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52 minutes ago, Ray H said:

Ditch the Node and buy a better source rather than try the scaler. 
 

The Dave at least deserves the chance to sound close to its best.

Thanks Ray

I have tested NODE 2i Against my PC , against my ASTELL & KERN A&ULTIMA SP2000  and the results was the same to me... also I heard that NODE 2i is very good by itself so I hope get Gaia to improve the digital source...

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1 hour ago, Mason Safari said:

Thanks Ray

I have tested NODE 2i Against my PC , against my ASTELL & KERN A&ULTIMA SP2000  and the results was the same to me... also I heard that NODE 2i is very good by itself so I hope get Gaia to improve the digital source...


Hey Mason,

 

To be Frank I’m not surprised you aren’t hearing any difference between those three sources. The sp2000 is an impressive device, but it’s still a portable device optimised for organic playback direct to headphones. Not outputting a signal to a high end dac.

 

A proper desktop device that is designed to output as clean a signal as possible to the DAC would be most appropriate.

 

I imagine if you you got hold of a decent second hand streamer/server in the second hand range 2-3k would show noticeable gains in sound performance.

 

if you don’t have access, perhaps when I’m in Sydney, I could loan you my Innuos or Matrix element X to see if it does make a difference in your system.

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I agree with Ray H's comments.  Get yourself a decent streamer like a Lumin U1 Mini or an Auralic Aries G1 / G2 or G2.1.  I am sure you will hear a definite improvement with either of these 2 streamers with the Dave. The G1 is cheaper than the M Scaler too.  Perhaps you could get a home demo on the G1 - Len Wallis in Lane Cove sells them and can do home demos. 

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1 hour ago, Ray H said:


Hey Mason,

 

To be Frank I’m not surprised you aren’t hearing any difference between those three sources. The sp2000 is an impressive device, but it’s still a portable device optimised for organic playback direct to headphones. Not outputting a signal to a high end dac.

 

A proper desktop device that is designed to output as clean a signal as possible to the DAC would be most appropriate.

 

I imagine if you you got hold of a decent second hand streamer/server in the second hand range 2-3k would show noticeable gains in sound performance.

 

if you don’t have access, perhaps when I’m in Sydney, I could loan you my Innuos or Matrix element X to see if it does make a difference in your system.

Thanks Ray , that would be great if I can test that ...

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1 hour ago, Ginman said:

I agree with Ray H's comments.  Get yourself a decent streamer like a Lumin U1 Mini or an Auralic Aries G1 / G2 or G2.1.  I am sure you will hear a definite improvement with either of these 2 streamers with the Dave. The G1 is cheaper than the M Scaler too.  Perhaps you could get a home demo on the G1 - Len Wallis in Lane Cove sells them and can do home demos. 

Thanks Steve

assume I have M Scalar, then how get a good streamer would improve my system ? also  I am curious  to test Gaia + NODE against Lumin U1 Mini or an Auralic Aries G1 / G2... so I can get G1 / G2 home and test and if not happy return? should give him a call...

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In fact, Len Wallis also sells the Dave too. 

 

So would be worthwhile to pop over and get a demo with The Aries G1 with the Dave vs Dave alone.  See what difference that makes.  I did a home demo on a weekend of the Hugo TT 2 at Len Wallis early last year and I could not part with it afterwards and I ended up purchasing it (much to the dismay of my wife :) ).  I recalled that they took a photocopy of my driver's licence and my credit card for security.  But I suggest calling them up and get them to organise a demo in the store with the G1 with Dave.   See how you go. 

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8 minutes ago, Mason Safari said:

Thanks Steve

assume I have M Scalar, then how get a good streamer would improve my system ? also  I am curious  to test Gaia + NODE against Lumin U1 Mini or an Auralic Aries G1 / G2... so I can get G1 / G2 home and test and if not happy return? should give him a call...

My call would be the opposite with that hardware. It won't make a difference.

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9 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

My call would be the opposite with that hardware. It won't make a difference.

Thanks Ittaku

which Hardware ? Upgrade of my streamer ? Or add Gaya to my Node?

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4 minutes ago, Mason Safari said:

Thanks Ittaku

which Hardware ? Upgrade of my streamer ? Or add Gaya to my Node?

I don't think a different streamer will make an audible difference with the Dave at the end of your chain.

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I believe it is debatable and not easy to have final verdict here...so far I also came to conclusion the streamer wouldn't make auditable ( to me) differences... that was the main reason I have sold my Rega CD player ( used as transport) ...But I thought Gaia would make a different now I intend to test both ( better/ more expensive streamer with and without  Gaia) if I can do the test/ demo and will report...

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38 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I don't think a different streamer will make an audible difference with the Dave at the end of your chain.

Hi Con are you saying this because you think the Chord is agnostic to source or because you believe differing streamers/servers don’t change the sound or improve sound quality ?

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4 hours ago, Ray H said:

Hi Con are you saying this because you think the Chord is agnostic to source or because you believe differing streamers/servers don’t change the sound or improve sound quality ?

Because the Dave would be very good at isolating itself from source noise, and reclocking its timing signals, and that there'd be better ways to improve the sound than buying another streamer.

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14 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Because the Dave would be very good at isolating itself from source noise, and reclocking its timing signals, and that there'd be better ways to improve the sound than buying another streamer.

Thanks Con

Can you please provide more details about ways improving the sound rather than streamers ?

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4 minutes ago, Mason Safari said:

Thanks Con

Can you please provide more details about ways improving the sound rather than streamers ?

Would need a rundown of the rest of your equipment to be able to make a sensible recommendation, and why the heck are you up at this hour as well?

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12 hours ago, Ray H said:

Ditch the Node and buy a better source rather than try the scaler. 
 

The Dave at least deserves the chance to sound close to its best.

+1

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