Future proofing DACs

[RocketFishPI]

Hey all,

 

I’ve been reading lately about FPGA DACs and the upgradability of PS Audio’s Directstream, but with sunlight being the last update for it, there’s not a whole heap more future there.

 

are there many other DACs on the market offering upgrades to firmware that will enhance the sound quality over the coming years?

[brodricj]

Just about everything now runs on software which can be updated.

[MattyW]

Honestly,  I'm finding modern-day implementations of the great multibit chips of yesteryear absolutely stomp any current DAC's and mine is 16 bit 44khz. So long as you can pair a DAC with a fantastic interface such as the Mutec MC-3+USB and a quality external clock then anything higher seems quite redundant.

 

I believe @Gieseler Audio will have something new out in the next few weeks that stands out from the usual approach. I won't say anything further though as it's just not my place. I'm pretty keen to hear about it myself

[tripitaka]

54 minutes ago, RocketFishPI said:

Hey all,

 

I’ve been reading lately about FPGA DACs and the upgradability of PS Audio’s Directstream, but with sunlight being the last update for it, there’s not a whole heap more future there.

 

are there many other DACs on the market offering upgrades to firmware that will enhance the sound quality over the coming years?

 

If you're talking software here, then I'm not sure 'future-proofing' has meaning for dacs in the way as it does, for example, with computers for which operating platforms change like the weather.

If PS has stopped updates for DirectStream then that might just mean their algos cant be improved further, at least within the limits of the onboard processing power.  And if a different input signal type other than PCM ever comes into vogue  (such as DSD, or god-forbid MQA) then it'll take more than a software update to make it work.

In short, I would recommend buying a good dac without regard for what will happen in the future.

 

 

 

 

[MattyW]

^^^ I'm in complete agreement with this. ^^^

 

Really,  invest in the DAC with the best possible sound quality you can afford.  That's the one feature that never goes out of fashion. Different interfaces such as the Mutec MC-3+USB or Denafrips Gaia can always be purchased to give access to all the latest inputs and standards so sound quality is all that matters. 

[brodricj]

14 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

..If PS has stopped updates for DirectStream then that might just mean their algos cant be improved further, at least within the limits of the onboard processing power.

They can't get the parts to keep building them, the FPGA is full, and the FPGA software tools are no longer supported.

[Hydrology]

4 hours ago, RocketFishPI said:

 

 

are there many other DACs on the market offering upgrades to firmware that will enhance the sound quality over the coming years?

Yes, dCS.

[genkifd]

Audio GD also have FPGA in their DACs

[tripitaka]

10 hours ago, RocketFishPI said:

Hey all,

 

I’ve been reading lately about FPGA DACs and the upgradability of PS Audio’s Directstream, but with sunlight being the last update for it, there’s not a whole heap more future there.

 

are there many other DACs on the market offering upgrades to firmware that will enhance the sound quality over the coming years?

 

I can see that software updates are important for streamers, having to interface with all the various streaming platforms/apps - which IMO is one reason to buy a  standalone DAC rather than a streamer/dac combo.

Anyway, good luck with your search

[BugPowderDust]

Many DAC vendors offer firmware upgrades that often come with new functionality etc. Nearly everyone from MSB to Matrix Audio and everyone in between does this.

 

Now whether there will be some revelatory new functionality coming for audio in the years to come, I’m less concerned. Pretty much anyone can now listen to high res audio and the various offerings below this (in terms of spec) on a circa $300 DAC. 
 

at this point in time, which DAC sounds best to you is the most important thing. Unless Bob Stuart creates another bastard son of a codec, I think things will be stable for some time yet.

[BugPowderDust]

11 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

 

I can see that software updates are important for streamers, having to interface with all the various streaming platforms/apps - which IMO is one reason to buy a  standalone DAC rather than a streamer/dac combo.

Anyway, good luck with your search

This is a great comment. An old streamer may not play nice with things like new platforms as they arrive (eg Roon in the past and say Apple Music in the future).
 

A modular DAC is handy in this regard. At the worst you can pop out the streamer module and put another connectivity module in its place later and set your streaming up external.

[Snoopy8]

My understanding is that SQ of a DAC is determined by the power supply, output stages and then the DAC chip.  Some vendors use FPGA instead of a DAC chip.  Upgrading the FPGA can improve things slightly, but does not change the power supply and output stages, both of which play a bigger role in determining the SQ.

 

Buying a DAC, just because the FPGA can be upgraded (I wonder how many vendors, other than PSA, have done this regularly?) is not the right approach.  Get a DAC which sounds good to you; the ability to upgrade is a bonus...

[RocketFishPI]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

My understanding is that SQ of a DAC is determined by the power supply, output stages and then the DAC chip.  Some vendors use FPGA instead of a DAC chip.  Upgrading the FPGA can improve things slightly, but does not change the power supply and output stages, both of which play a bigger role in determining the SQ.

 

My experience would tend to agree with this statement. That being said, I've read a dozen comments on the new Sunlight update for the DS saying that it's a revalation, this could be hyperbole though.

 

I think for me it's less about having "the best" and more about having the excitement of a different sound to change things up a bit. 

[EddieT]

Just found this short article on some new dac tech that’s being developed.

https://yourdigitalwall.com/2021/05/04/with-the-intonations-audio-technology-digital-now-carries-the-true-analogue-sound-as-original-384-khz-in-4-8-mb/

[Snoopy8]

48 minutes ago, RocketFishPI said:

I think for me it's less about having "the best" and more about having the excitement of a different sound to change things up a bit. 

For the cost of the $8K Directstream,  you can purchase several equally good DACs over time.  Surely that creates more excitement?  

[BugPowderDust]

16 minutes ago, EddieT said:

Just found this short article on some new dac tech that’s being developed.

https://yourdigitalwall.com/2021/05/04/with-the-intonations-audio-technology-digital-now-carries-the-true-analogue-sound-as-original-384-khz-in-4-8-mb/

That's some heavy hyperbole there. I look forward to this turning on the "brown" LED on my DAC

[brodricj]

5 hours ago, RocketFishPI said:

...I've read a dozen comments on the new Sunlight update for the DS saying that it's a revalation...

 

The PS fan bois and their Chief Disciple have been saying this with every update, right from day 1. Good luck to those who were able to get the update to stick first go. I've owned both the DS Senior and Junior, and (for the Junior in particular) you needed to hop on one foot whilst spinning anti-clockwise and chanting prayers in Swahili to the upgrade gods for it to update. And if the upgrade failed to stick you needed to roll back a couple of firmwares first and do the upgrade jig in opposite directions. But the PS fan bois don't mind doing all that, it comes with the territory.

[frankn]

I must have been extremely lucky then as all the updates on my Snr “took” 1st go. 

To the original poster, purchase a product you like the sound of.  

don’t get pulled into the hype of the type of conversion , whether it’s a ladder dac, fpga or conventional chip or output via op amp or video amps or transformers. 
It’s likely the $$$ will dictate a lot of your choices.  At the end of the day it’s what the unit sounds like to you, in your system especially after a few hours (sometimes extended detail can ultimately be fatiguing). 
Anything else is a bonus. 

[RocketFishPI]

Thanks @frankn and everyone. Honestly I’m not so much looking for purchasing advice; I have a Gumby as well as the dac in my h190, both of which are pretty tidy to my ears.

 

I’m mostly curious around the future of DAC improvements beyond revisions to hardware. I like to imagine there’s a solution where hardware is robust and flexible enough to support radically different firmware implementations and a range of different (yet authentic) sonic profiles.

[frankn]

Might be either fpga’s, noise reduction, isolation, and convolution filter implementation or a combination of some or all of the above. 
 

[brodricj]

"Future proofing" is not a term you can associate with DAC's. "Extended longevity" is a better term. The PS Directstream is a good example of that, it had a remarkably long production life. Its life came to an end when the software capability outgrew the hardware capability. The Mk2 version of that platform is coming soon. The PS fan bois will be salivating at the latest revelation where all previous veils will be lifted and the air around instruments will be purer than ever before. I'm just going to have to slum it with my Esoteric because my software update dancing shoes were thrown out long ago.

Edited June 1, 2021 by brodricj

[frankn]

On 31/05/2021 at 10:03 AM, EddieT said:

Just found this short article on some new dac tech that’s being developed.

https://yourdigitalwall.com/2021/05/04/with-the-intonations-audio-technology-digital-now-carries-the-true-analogue-sound-as-original-384-khz-in-4-8-mb/

Son of MQA in the making? 

 

 

 

 

 

[frankn]

@brodricj very good point. Software eventually outgrows hardware so both are intertwined. Extended longevity is a good term. 

[Kevy]

DAC and technology will continue to evolve. However, where does the buck stop?

 

R2R and FPGA DAC's are in a whole different league in terms of price and performance. There comes a very steep diminishing returns after a certain level.

 

I don't think you can future proof a DAC. However, if you're happy with the performance of your current DAC, my advice would be to stop reading forums ; and stop auditioning new DAC. Otherwise, your wallet spend on audiophile addiction may be more than what some may spend on other addictions!

[EddieT]

On 01/06/2021 at 9:17 PM, brodricj said:

"Future proofing" is not a term you can associate with DAC's. "Extended longevity" is a better term. The PS Directstream is a good example of that, it had a remarkably long production life. Its life came to an end when the software capability outgrew the hardware capability. The Mk2 version of that platform is coming soon. The PS fan bois will be salivating at the latest revelation where all previous veils will be lifted and the air around instruments will be purer than ever before. I'm just going to have to slum it with my Esoteric because my software update dancing shoes were thrown out long ago.

Haha yes PS says:  “ the sound stage was so wide so deep so vivid so Airy I could tell if the conductor farted almost immediately”........”and in the next ‘upgrade’ “OMG this is a REAL improvement this time I could even tell what he had for dinner”

Be Well

Edited June 8, 2021 by EddieT