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3 x Rel Predator 1508 or SVS PB 4000 or JL Fathom 113 ? Ok let’s try F212v2!


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Posted (edited)

Have been wasting cash on Utilities bills and Mortgage repayments  but now thinking to spend some cash wisely on HT subwoofer upgrade

 

System is focal Electra 1008Be, CC1000be, 2x 1007be surrounds plus a Whise 319a sub.  Denon 8500 driving.  Room is 8m x 4m x 2.5m plus adjoining room.

 

The Whise is totally amazing but even it can’t quite deliver the final few Hz.   So I am thinking to supplement or replace it.  Problem is most subwoofers are horrible flabby things.  Especially most standard ported subs.  Sealed subs usually sound better to my ear hence my interest in the F113 or for the same price I could have 3 Rel 1508.  Being in lockdown I can’t venture out to try myself and it’s hard to get a good comparison when they are in different showrooms etc.

 

Has anyone experience or thoughts on multi Rel vs SVS vs F113.    .

 

 

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Update:  Found a deal on an F212v2.  Will have to wait untill the weekend to setup properly.   First impressions:  Heavy!  Very black and well put together.  Feels like the cash it cost. 

My Vaf platform 2 opens point singularities.   I see the guys at vaf created a monster sub for a client... sub pic linky

the SVS do good output and can go reasonably low both which i suspect will tick boxes for you... but i just never find them as clean, tight and controlled as powerful sealed subs..    and pe

the SVS do good output and can go reasonably low both which i suspect will tick boxes for you... but i just never find them as clean, tight and controlled as powerful sealed subs.. 

 

and personally the fathom would be my choice ... keep the whise ... it will make a good slave sub ...

 

I have no experience with the rel predator to comment... but 3 ? 

 

properly locating, setting up and Eq'ing 1 ... and then 2 subs is challenge enough... 3 ...would need some sophistication to do

 

I think you run a flagship denon AVR from memory... it will do 1 or 2 sub setup and EQ to perfection.... but not 3 so I would stop at 2 if possible...

 

also given have one decent sub already... id only add one really great sub... that kicks hard and goes low, clean and controlled... the fathom ticks that box

 

another to consider is the velodyne DD18+ same price as the JL, and these are absolute monsters ...will pump out decent volume clean controlled and with series punch. beautifully finished too like the fathoms so will mix in well with the other gear you have :) 

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Posted (edited)

The Rel are designed to be stacked. I could have 3 for the price of the F113..  curious if anyone has tried them.  And yes the Denon 8500 has the second sub output I can use.

 

image.jpeg.85dd2908cb3eadbad01e21f6a9db7db9.jpeg

 

 

 

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I was looking at a similar list of subs. The JL Fathom sounded amazing on demo, very controlled, lots of sound pressure in a bigger room than you have, Just lots of $$$. I listened to the REL Predators in a 6 stack, in a huge floor showroom, so it didn't achieve the sound pressure, though was very controlled and lots of DB as you would expect. 

I'm basing my purchase decision off a few respected people I have had conversations with. I was advised against the REL's by a few retailers that sell them, Not sure if thats because they get a better margin on the other subs they were trying to suggest or real advice. That was enough to take them off my list.

For the same money as what 2 x REL Predators was going to cost me I ended up going for a couple of Rythmik F18's - Sealed, Big drivers, solid amp, small enclosure for their size and well engineered with the Servo style system 

I cant comment on how they sound just yet as I'm still waiting for delivery on them.  Just my 2c - If you are happy with 1 sub I'd go the Fathom, I wanted 2 and couldn't justify that $$$ spend. Hoping the Rythmik's turn out well.

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Posted (edited)

its amazing the difference rooms make and positioning... good the rel can be stacked ! if going stacked there is also Rel 212...

 

https://www.selby.com.au/rel-212-se-1000w-12-subwoofer-gloss-black.html?

 

edit also the SE at $4999...probably 2 for price of one JL... or velo DD+18

 

https://klappav.com.au/products/212-se?_pos=6&_sid=bb2335a65&_ss=r

Edited by betty boop
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i dont have any experience with those subs but i can read so hop over to avs forums and find some opinions on the pb4000, its basically shite. unfortunately here we are so limited with big subs and prices are a joke.

 

1 big sub in that sized room? would have thought 2 minimum.

 

too bad peter at Deep HZ Audio no longer stocks P.S.A subs

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What an enviable position you are in to be able to choose between these subs.

 

I have ownership experience with JL F113’s and F212’s, and similarly with a lot of REL’s including the number 25 flagship. I have also listened to quite a few PSB subs.

 

I haven’t yet had a chance to listen to the REL HT series.

 

What I can say is that the REL (higher end models) and JL’s are both excellent for music/2 channel based systems. But they sound very different in their musical presentation’s. The REL often sound like they emit a blanket of bass across the floor of the whole room, which becomes the foundation for the rest of the sound. Ie they are great for vocal, classical and folk music in particular.

 

The JL Audio F series are incredibly dynamic with very accurate bass transients, ie they push bass sounds around the room like cannon balls. Ie they are great in particular for edm, rock and dynamic music.

 

Hope those descriptions make sense.

 

I can’t help but think that the JL would probably be more impressive for home theatre sound. But I would be interested to hear the new HT series predators. The good thing about the REL’s is the stack ability, ie you could start out with two, then go to four, ie two stacks of two etc.

 

I would be trying to get a demo of the REL HT vs the JL Audio’s. Melbourne HiFi has both brands for example.

 

Having said that, if your system is mainly home theatre and not music. The single JL F113 V2 at around 10k is not a good option from a value perspective. Your room is pretty big and will allow two or more subs to work the room.

 

So if the room is mainly home theatre I think the money would be well spent on two bigger sealed subs. The Rythmik 18’s or PSB SB Ultra 16’s come to mind as very hard to beat in a mostly home theatre context. They would likely also be pretty decent for music. Dual predators may also be in this group.

 

As hard as a sub demo can be, I think it would still provide enough to show the differences between the brands.

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@kudeta2003 would be interested in your thoughts once you have the rhythmic subs.  I would prefer to be able to hear them somewhere.    So many subs are quantity with no quality.  Where did you find them?  There does also seem to be a bit of an online grumble against Rel.  Not sure if it’s just the selective stuff I’m reading or if it’s real/fair. I guess if it’s online it’s almost certainly not fair or balanced.

 

@Ray H thanks for the great feedback.  From what you say the F113 sounds like it may be what I am after.  I already have the Whise 319a so adding a 113 may be a good option. Giving the cannonball I’m missing.  Question is can I make them play nicely together.   Also what was the difference between the 113 and the 212?  
 

Keep the feedback coming:  although seems I’m going to have to go visit some dealers. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steam said:

 

@kudeta2003 would be interested in your thoughts once you have the rhythmic subs.  I would prefer to be able to hear them somewhere.    So many subs are quantity with no quality.  Where did you find them?  There does also seem to be a bit of an online grumble against Rel.  Not sure if it’s just the selective stuff I’m reading or if it’s real/fair. I guess if it’s online it’s almost certainly not fair or balanced.

 

 

 

Happy to oblige, depending on where you are in Melbourne, you may be able to come by & listen.

There is a local agent in Melbourne - Richard @ Audio Salon. He has the rights to import into Aus, otherwise you can go the diy Kit option with Redspade Audio.

I saw/heard too much or the REL bashing as well as SVS bashing so stayed away. Though there is always going to be negative detractors online.

 

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Hi @Steam

 

i had omitted comment on the Whise 319a.

 

I do recall this being a very well regarded sub on its release. After doing a bit of reading, I would be surprised if you can’t make it work with another sub, particularly in a front and back sub scenario. I would put the whise up the back and depending on what the new sub is, up the front. Basically I think selling the whise for a low amount and trying to replace it for reasonable $ would be very difficult, nigh on impossible. I saw the Whise goes down clean to 19hz and goes pretty loud. I have tried to think why you would want to replace a pretty capable sub like the Whise and I keep coming back to you likely want a very clean sealed sub like the JL to get the sound you are after.


The difference between the JL Audio F!13 and the F212 is a pretty significant increase in performance. Interestingly I found in a small to medium sized room 1 x 212 sounded better than 2 x 113’s. In a bigger room (like yours) two 113’s 

Was probably a better option.

 

2 x F113’s on a scale of 1-10 for me was probably a solid 7.5, 2 x F212’s was a solid 9, frankly incredible. So the F212 to me is well worth the extra $. 
 

I think you should shoot for an F212 coupled with the Whise, particularly if you can get it second hand. Second option would be dual F113’s. After these the next option I would consider is SVS SB16 Ultra or large Rythmik.

 

If you want to buy JL new, you could do worse than Lifestylestore up here in Sydney. Speak to Jamie and mention I said you would give him a good price.

 

The JL E series I have also owned, they are great in small-medium sized room, but I don’t believe they would be a good option for your big room.

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3 hours ago, Steam said:

 

 From what you say the F113 sounds like it may be what I am after.  I already have the Whise 319a so adding a 113 may be a good option. Giving the cannonball I’m missing.  Question is can I make them play nicely together.   Also what was the difference between the 113 and the 212?  
 

Keep the feedback coming:  although seems I’m going to have to go visit some dealers. 

Yes ; some of these are designed more for output rather than bass extension ie the rel 212's 

21Hz at -6dB in room response ; would be a faster rolloff than the whise I suspect ?  The fathom or the new velo dd models would have very low distortion due to their construction and driver excursion control dsp ..

Another point is both of these have parametric auto eq so that costs more[ the velo has auto crossover and phase etc too - better than ever ]

Quote

Eight fully parametric equalizers can be manipulated for smooth, even bass output. Crossovers, slopes, subsonic filters and phase can be adjusted for the primary settings as well as for the five presets while getting feedback in real-time. 

 . If your happy with the denons audyssey your choices open up . Just note the dd+ models have exceptional bass extension and a spec thats only 3db down at 14hz ; that is deep :)

 

Quote

Frequency Response: 14.6Hz to 120Hz +/-3 dB

 

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@Ray H I don’t necessarily want to replace the Whise.  It’s a very capable sub although getting long in the tooth now. Certainly better than any regular under $3 to 5k sub I have come across. It is not flabby like a regular ported sub.  So doesn’t make sense to sell it.  But then it’s 15 years old and probably needs the driver surround replaced to bring it back to new.  I am investigating this.

 

 

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I have two mk 1 F113 fathoms and they easily trounced a pair of 13” Rythmiks and a pair of Legend subs prior to that.

I haven’t heard Rel so can’t comment on that comparison.

Have you seen the Whatmough sub for sale in the Classifieds? I think it’s the same as your one. Two of those would be terrific. From memory when Whise got in financial trouble they teamed up with Whatmough and just copied the 319a sub it was that good. 

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51 minutes ago, gat474 said:

I have two mk 1 F113 fathoms and they easily trounced a pair of 13” Rythmiks and a pair of Legend subs prior to that.

I haven’t heard Rel so can’t comment on that comparison.

Have you seen the Whatmough sub for sale in the Classifieds? I think it’s the same as your one. Two of those would be terrific. From memory when Whise got in financial trouble they teamed up with Whatmough and just copied the 319a sub it was that good. 

The whatmore sub in the classifieds is a version of the Whise 119.  Much smaller.  A bargain for sure and I did think about it.  

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Sorry, my mistake, I had it in mind that yours was the smaller one. Very impressive then and you’ll have to search pretty hard to do better than yours. Was yours called the ‘Profounder’?

I am probably wrong here but was the driver made by Lorantz in Melbourne?

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4 minutes ago, gat474 said:

Sorry, my mistake, I had it in mind that yours was the smaller one. Very impressive then and you’ll have to search pretty hard to do better than yours. Was yours called the ‘Profounder’?

I am probably wrong here but was the driver made by Lorantz in Melbourne?

Yes on both counts. I need to contact Lorantz and see if they can help with a replacement or even updated driver to give it another 15years of life.

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1 hour ago, Steam said:

@Ray H I don’t necessarily want to replace the Whise.  It’s a very capable sub although getting long in the tooth now. Certainly better than any regular under $3 to 5k sub I have come across. It is not flabby like a regular ported sub.  So doesn’t make sense to sell it.  But then it’s 15 years old and probably needs the driver surround replaced to bring it back to new.  I am investigating this.

 

 

yep i wouldn't look to replace.... but dont be fooled with subs and age... my velo DD15s are 15 years old but good as new.... I think with subs particularly tech hasn't really progressed that much over last decade or so.... similar really with speakers... understand though if its got a roll surround that maybe needs replacing but if rubber that is unlikely to be the case :)

 

re subs and volume its an interesting thing... i have two DD15s. and honestly wiht my area that is 5.5x6m that opens up to larger 5.5 to 10m wit only light doors in between even one of the Dd15s is good enough.... I think as described earlier it is the sealed subs with a LOT of power behind them.... they punch pretty hard but also go quite low. and very clean and controlled with their servo control.  know someone else with a velo DD18plus and personally id take that over a JL113 even in a large space as you have i cant imagine needed much more than the powerful 18" sealed sub of this ilk.  

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8 hours ago, hopefullguy said:

i dont have any experience with those subs but i can read so hop over to avs forums and find some opinions on the pb4000, its basically shite. unfortunately here we are so limited with big subs and prices are a joke.

 

1 big sub in that sized room? would have thought 2 minimum.

 

too bad peter at Deep HZ Audio no longer stocks P.S.A subs

PB4000 is shite??? 

I'm sorry but that's rubbish, it's essentially a PB13 Ultra with more power and features.

There ARE better value prospects in the USA dB/$$, but for 99.99% of the world's population, the PB4000 is still an excellent subwoofer. 

It's funny how some on AVS crap on SVS, but forget to mention the added benefits... Incredible customer service, app control, built in parametric EQ, 45 days trial period with free shipping both ways,multiple tuning options etc

 

Out of the options listed by the OP, objectively speaking, the PB4000 would decimate them performance wise. 

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Posted (edited)

not sure on the SVS cr@pping on on AVS/US but the problem is here whether base model or upper model they just dont seem really great value anymore... look at the pb4000 is a $1899 usd and here it is a nearly $4k aud prospect...

 

main problem with the SVS here is actually us forums I think folks here read stuff over there, folks raving about them but thats partly for what pay for them there I think... 

Edited by betty boop
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34 minutes ago, betty boop said:

not sure on the SVS cr@pping on on AVS/US but the problem is here whether base model or upper model they just dont seem really great value anymore... look athlete pb4000 a $1899 usd and here it is a nearly $4k aud prospect...

 

main problem with the SVS here is actually us forums I thin,k folks here read stuff over there, folks raving about them but thats partly for what pay for them there I think... 

With that in mind, what sub actually  outperforms the PB4000 for the same $$$ in Australia? 

 

 

Third party measured at 112db @  20hz @  8% THD measured at 2m outside

And 115dB+ from 30hz to 100hz at single digit distortion percentages is still really really good performance numbers

 

 

Plus the warranty and features, I still feel it's a decent value option

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hi JB "value" always in eyes / mind of beholder.. so we likely see things differently... eg if ask me pb4000 ... good value ? id say nah... i'll stick with what i have ..happy for high power, good depth, low distortion servo designs the subs i have  are. and keeping mind well past stage of warranty even consideration :D

 

your post is certainly good for OP to consider....

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12 minutes ago, jamiebosco said:

With that in mind, what sub actually  outperforms the PB4000 for the same $$$ in Australia? 

 

 

Third party measured at 112db @  20hz @  8% THD measured at 2m outside

And 115dB+ from 30hz to 100hz at single digit distortion percentages is still really really good performance numbers

 

 

Plus the warranty and features, I still feel it's a decent value option

It really depends what you value.   As I said earlier a lot of subs can go loud but they sound horrible.  Slow, flabby, Ill defined.  Unfortunantly it’s expensive to get output AND quality.  In general sealed subs seem to have less output but sound better IMO.  If I get the chance I will try and find a PB4000 and see what it can do.  

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2 minutes ago, Steam said:

It really depends what you value.   As I said earlier a lot of subs can go loud but they sound horrible.  Slow, flabby, Ill defined.  Unfortunantly it’s expensive to get output AND quality.  In general sealed subs seem to have less output but sound better IMO.  If I get the chance I will try and find a PB4000 and see what it can do.  

PB4000 would not be one of those, it measures ruler flat to 20hz and below at very low distortion numbers, has a very good driver in a well built, large box and bulletproof limiters. 

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I have had a few svs subs and i can see why they are popular.    Their US pricing and trade-back offer makes it attractive in the US ofA but here in Oz, thier value proposition is overrated IMHO.   It is a safe brand to get as resales are sought after.

 

I recently took a punt on dual rel HT1003s.  I wasnt expecting much but boy they didn't disappoint. 10inch drive with 300 class d watts? In my mid sized room (4000cubic feet),they delivered a lot of clean output and punch for HT.  This is with the crossover set to 50hz and the vol at 10 o'clock.  Im also a believer that getting the right sized sub for the room is key.  Getting too big of a sub (driver+output) just causes more issues with uneven bass.  

 

From memory, one youtuber reviewed 1,2, and 4 rel predator 1508s and said that the best bang for buck was the 2 subs.  4 was hard to get an even calibration and the db gain wasnt worth the extra coin put in...

 

 

 

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Rythmik Audio G25HP?

 

12 hours ago, hopefullguy said:

too bad peter at Deep HZ Audio no longer stocks P.S.A subs

 

 

Yeah which further limits the already strained subwoofer options. An properly driven/integrated ipal 18/21" driver is the end game dream. 

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Enjoying reading this thread - never used a sub in my stereo only system but always loved hearing a good HT system with well integrated bass - with such a big room does size matter in terms of getting that ethereal chest slapping experience? The most impressive bass systems experiences I’ve had where mondies active Adam’s and his previous massive TAD system - both which had earth shattering bass but still so musical - the other time was simple scale when I heard stereo being played through a massive cinema test system set up at a krix factory tour playing some blue man group - but that was just mental in terms of scale - but again does size matter? Is 18inch cinema scale an option or will it be “flabby” being ported etc???

 

https://www.krix.com.au/kx-4010/

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5 hours ago, andythiing said:

Enjoying reading this thread - never used a sub in my stereo only system but always loved hearing a good HT system with well integrated bass - with such a big room does size matter in terms of getting that ethereal chest slapping experience? The most impressive bass systems experiences I’ve had where mondies active Adam’s and his previous massive TAD system - both which had earth shattering bass but still so musical - the other time was simple scale when I heard stereo being played through a massive cinema test system set up at a krix factory tour playing some blue man group - but that was just mental in terms of scale - but again does size matter? Is 18inch cinema scale an option or will it be “flabby” being ported etc???

 

https://www.krix.com.au/kx-4010/

krix had am not sure how many of those subs at last demo i went to of their andy :) probably at least 4 ! and maybe still one more for good measure... hehe because they could or something like that ! some of their theatres they have setup even have subs up in the ceiling ! 

 

great have got to enjoy a few setups to appreciate :) 

 

subs can do both 2ch and HT... I found a sub myself that is clean controlled goes deep enough to add value for 2ch... and huge fun for ht...

 

one of problems with many of the HT focussed subs is they are for effect and often cranked to benefit..... where with 2ch less is more ... you shouldn't actually hear the sub ... but feel it as the frequencies it goes down to are not locatable... integration with your main speakers and the room here is also crucial...

 

if you can place and hear the sub ... its probably doing naughty things :D and sticking out like a sore thumb :D

 

good subs for 2ch add air, depth and foundation...punch clarity etc...poor ones muddiness, actually can slow music down even yes annoying even !  :) 

 

for HT they can add huge fun factor.... :D 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, jamiebosco said:

PB4000 is shite??? 

I'm sorry but that's rubbish, it's essentially a PB13 Ultra with more power and features.

There ARE better value prospects in the USA dB/$$, but for 99.99% of the world's population, the PB4000 is still an excellent subwoofer. 

It's funny how some on AVS crap on SVS, but forget to mention the added benefits... Incredible customer service, app control, built in parametric EQ, 45 days trial period with free shipping both ways,multiple tuning options etc

 

Out of the options listed by the OP, objectively speaking, the PB4000 would decimate them performance wise. 

 

Yep you're on it.

 

One thing to remember about the big SVS sub-woofers is they are essentially three sub-woofers in one.

All ports open = ported

One port closed = ported

All ports closed = sealed

So you really have a choice that can be made after purchase and into the future.

 

Also, it makes me amused there are those who insist that sealed sub-woofers are they only ones that are acceptable but yet they have ported speakers. 🤔

And those ported speakers will almost certainly be tuned higher in the more audible and group delay sensitive range.

 

Which brings me to my final point, here are some group delay measurements of an SVS PB-13 (the model before the PB-4000).

As can be seen the performance of the two ported options delivers group delay performance that is virtually identical to the sealed option all the way to about 28Hz.
It is only from about that frequency down that group delay is higher.

This can only be achieved by very deep port tuning, much lower than what even large floor-standers are tuned at.

There's hardly any content in music down that low so for all intent and purpose you get the advantages of a sealed sub-woofer for music without the disadvantages of a sealed sub-woofer for music (lower efficiency, higher distortion).

Delay Chart

https://www.svsound.com/blogs/subwoofer-setup-and-tuning/75367747-sealed-vs-ported

Edited by Satanica
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On 31/05/2021 at 10:40 AM, kudeta2003 said:

I was looking at a similar list of subs. The JL Fathom sounded amazing on demo, very controlled, lots of sound pressure in a bigger room than you have, Just lots of $$$. I listened to the REL Predators in a 6 stack, in a huge floor showroom, so it didn't achieve the sound pressure, though was very controlled and lots of DB as you would expect. 

I'm basing my purchase decision off a few respected people I have had conversations with. I was advised against the REL's by a few retailers that sell them, Not sure if thats because they get a better margin on the other subs they were trying to suggest or real advice. That was enough to take them off my list.

For the same money as what 2 x REL Predators was going to cost me I ended up going for a couple of Rythmik F18's - Sealed, Big drivers, solid amp, small enclosure for their size and well engineered with the Servo style system 

I cant comment on how they sound just yet as I'm still waiting for delivery on them.  Just my 2c - If you are happy with 1 sub I'd go the Fathom, I wanted 2 and couldn't justify that $$$ spend. Hoping the Rythmik's turn out well.

I can second the Rythmik. I have a FVX15 and have been using since last year. It beat the SVS subs around the price range. No idea about JL

 

Got the sub from Richard- Audio Salon. He's a great guy to deal with. I'm getting Paul - Redspade Audio to come measure the room and calibrate. 

 

I personally think if you have the money (and can afford those options), spend it on a room measurement and treatments first? Especially with bass.

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ok ok i dont own a pb4000 and was only relaying the many opinions on that particular sub from my many readings on avs forums. over there they do not have the price problems we have. no-one here is going to pay $4000 and say it is shite, but they always come up 2nd hand and take forever to sell. from readings you are better off with the pb3000x2 anyway. but hey each to their opinion.

 

as for the pb13 ultra... its a classic and i would have proven classic over computerised new.

 

but the main attraction from avs forum members is a try and return policy from svs,

with the pricing here and lack of customer returns/upgrade policy its a punt with svs.

 

wouldnt be punting with $4000+

 

but each to their own and best of luck with what ever is bought.

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10 hours ago, andythiing said:

but again does size matter? Is 18inch cinema scale an option or will it be “flabby” being ported etc???

Its important to look at it from multiple angles I think Andy . There is a direct link between air moved by the driver/s and feeling it in the chest . If an enclosure is large and the driver as well and it has a large excursion range ;more air is delivered . The important thing is a well braced/inert cabinet and baffle so distortion is kept down in concert with a cone that is stiff but still compliant enough to have a good reaction time to the signal ..

Now if the cone is stiff with well constructed spiders etc and a very large excursion [which is key] that can help move more air   even with a smaller cabinet. Ports can be well designed not to "chuff" and muddy the sound . The difference between ported or not is low frequency rolloff vs spl levels generally speaking . Eg as an apples to oranges off on a tangent  :);  my main L/R are both transmission line ported so go very low into the 20hz range but its very hard to design a good transmission line compared to a regular ported speaker..

 

 

Quote

I personally think if you have the money (and can afford those options), spend it on a room measurement and treatments first? Especially with bass.

Yes ;the better the room nulls and peaks are tamed the less the room eq needed .

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1 hour ago, hopefullguy said:

as for the pb13 ultra... its a classic and i would have proven classic over computerised new.

 

It looks like they are still available here for 1k less than the PB-4000.

https://www.elite-electronics.com.au/Home_Entertainment/Subwoofers/SVS_PB13-ULTRA_13_3600W_Ported_Subwoofer_Black_Oak

 

And $300 more for a gloss black.

https://www.elite-electronics.com.au/Home_Entertainment/Subwoofers/SVS_PB13-ULTRA_13_3600W_Ported_Subwoofer_Piano_Gloss

 

But, I can pretty much assure you the PB-13 is DSP controlled so very much still a computerised subwoofer.

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1 hour ago, hopefullguy said:

ok ok i dont own a pb4000 and was only relaying the many opinions on that particular sub from my many readings on avs forums. over there they do not have the price problems we have. no-one here is going to pay $4000 and say it is shite, but they always come up 2nd hand and take forever to sell. from readings you are better off with the pb3000x2 anyway. but hey each to their opinion.

 

as for the pb13 ultra... its a classic and i would have proven classic over computerised new.

 

but the main attraction from avs forum members is a try and return policy from svs,

with the pricing here and lack of customer returns/upgrade policy its a punt with svs.

 

wouldnt be punting with $4000+

 

but each to their own and best of luck with what ever is bought.

While I agree the yanks get a MUCH better deal with SVS than we do (as they do with ALL ID sub companies ...and AVR's etc) IMHO the PB-4000 is still LESS of a punt than most Aussie brands in the same price category.

 

The Krix CYCLONIX 18 ACTIVE is over $4k,has no third party measurements, and is speced at 20Hz to 250Hz @ -10dB. Sure it will have way more output above 30hz than the PB4000,but that only means something if you need more than 115dB in the midbass region. Under 25Hz,and especially under 20Hz the PB4000 would have a massive advantage. For home theater I'd rather something that can play at least to 20Hz with authority.

The Osborn Monumental Subwoofer is $4.5k,and again has no (readily available) third party measurements, so how much are you getting at 20Hz?and  is it enough for your listening levels?

(I'm NOT saying these aren't great subs, but I just like to know what I'm getting for my $$)

 

The PB-4000 (and the PB13Ultra before it) has been thoroughly tested, so you know exactly what you're getting for your $$. 

 

Anyway,I'll back out of this I think, as most don't seem to place as much value/emphasis on the ULF or objective measurements as I do

 

cheers

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having heard both the krix and the monumentals ... they go like the clappers :D 

 

i know its easy to disregard the local options ... but need to keep in mind they dont have the brand marketing like the us brands that pour tons of money into - they live and die on that over there ! 

 

those osborne monumentals if still using the focal flower power sub drivers are phenomenal ! series kick, clean, detailed  very controlled  ! also build   is like literally nothing else ! only thing coming close have seen is flagship rel from years ago... even rel dont build them like they used to :D

 

the krix are very utilitarian so very much for dedicated threater where you dont care what looking like... just some black boxes to disappear into  and hide in the shadows :D 

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4 hours ago, jamiebosco said:

Anyway,I'll back out of this I think, as most don't seem to place as much value/emphasis on the ULF or objective measurements as I do

 

https://data-bass.com/#/systems?_k=ltpd8l

 

There's a place for measurements but I also think playing "loud" doesn't mean playing it well.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Dannygx said:

 

https://data-bass.com/#/systems?_k=ltpd8l

 

There's a place for measurements but I also think playing "loud" doesn't mean playing it well.

IMHO If a sub has a ruler flat frequency response,  plays with very low levels of distortion, and extends  as deep and as high as you need it to, at the level you need it to, that's all you can really ask for. 

 

And if a sub like the PB-13 can play 20Hz at 110dB  @ 5% THD

and your playback level is lower, the distortion numbers drop dramatically, I'd guess 100dB @ 20Hz @ 1% THD  or so

 

 

 

Edited by jamiebosco
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19 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

Well of course, but insisting they are mutually exclusive is just grinding a very big axe.

Never said they are. But I was only referring to things that don't necessarily show up on measurements. 

 

Anyway this is way off topic now. I'm not bashing any particular brand or model. My original comment was only that Rythmik is also worth a try, you can compare the "measurements" on the link above if you want.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dannygx said:

Never said they are.

 

Yep, fair enough and I should have made it clear that mine was a general comment and not necessarily referring to you. So I'm glad we agree. 

 

1 hour ago, Dannygx said:

But I was only referring to things that don't necessarily show up on measurements. 

 

Anyway this is way off topic now. I'm not bashing any particular brand or model. My original comment was only that Rythmik is also worth a try, you can compare the "measurements" on the link above. 

 

I'm not much for one believing in what can't be measured. But of course not all measurements are complete. Rythmik subs seem like they should be good.

 

But this is dragging hey. Anyway there at least seems to be mostly an agreement around here that what subwoofer one buys is less important than how it or they are set up to a somewhat degree. 

Edited by Satanica
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