A modern state of the art "needle drop" transfer to digital versus the same performance mix released digitally

[MLXXX]

This is a comment recently made in another thread in The Great Debate section of the forum about advances in vinyl technology:

 

 

On 19/05/2021 at 11:46 AM, davewantsmoore said:

.... technology has not stood still, and the vinyl system benefits from advances in materials/mechanical science as much if not more than anything.

 

I think it should be of great surrpise to people how good vinyl can sound, given its "specs" (non-linear distortion, noise, channel separation, etc. etc.)

 

That isn't an advert for vinyl ....as much as it is a reminder of where the bar is actually set for "good quality" sounds reproduction on many of the metrics that audiophiles have been gaslighted into obsessing over.

 

 

I am very open to being pleasantly "surprised" at modern vinyl sound!  Could someone please point me to an extract of a really good sounding transfer to digital of the playing of a vinyl disc, and for comparison an extract of the same musical performance released digitally?  I'm not looking for a heavily compressed digital version, or a performance of hard rock which might involve intentional distortion of the sound. A soft ballad, or a classical music performance would be much more my style, and hopefully would be revealing of sound qualiity.

 

 

Below is an example of what I would subjectively assess as poor sounding audio in terms of its technical quality, but the album was released back in 1980 and so is not an example of a  state of the art mastered and pressed vinyl disc of today.  (YouTube audio codec compression would have a slight impact on the overall sound quality, though not much. The essence of what we hear would be the vinyl disc, as played on the audiophile's setup.)

 

Is there something much better than this audio quality available when playing a vinyl disc, these days?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by MLXXX

[MLXXX]

It's over two years since I started this thread, but recent discussion in this part of the forum reminded me that the challenge or invitation I presented in my opening post above was still unanswered.

 

There are considerable technical limitations to overcome, or at least deal with, and so it is remarkable that the technology has retained its popularity for a significant percentage of forum members (to judge  from the many posts in favour of the format). Also out in the world at large there are many reports of a resurgence in sales of vinyl, such as: Vinyl sales surpassed CDs for the first time in 35 years as records make 'remarkable resurgence'.

 

However, some forum members who love vinyl technology still seem to think the reason for their love is that the sound is technically more faithful to the original analogue sound than digital could ever be. That is demonstrably a fallacy: digital technology can recreate the electric signals coming from a microphone with astonishing precision and transparency. Vinyl cannot.   The charm of vinyl must be for other reasons.

 

In its own way, AM radio has an allure. With typical AM radio reception you get a robust sound lacking in treble and with a fair amount of harmonic and intermodulation distortion, and typically a fair amount of dynamic compression. In a noisy environment, AM radio can hold its own. A lot of pop songs hit the top of the charts through people hearing the song on their AM radios and liking it so much they went out and bought the single or the album.

 

Anyway, just as a gentle reminder or guide to those souls still clinging to the notion that vinyl technology may be  technically superior, this article provides some home truths about various technical limitations inherent in the technology: LP replay performance.   It is perhaps surprising that, despite such limitations, the format can give so much listening pleasure.

Edited July 12 by MLXXX

[Hydrology]

https://darko.audio/2023/08/when-hi-res-audio-cant-compete-with-vinyl/

 

 

[muon*]

Technical limitations be they inclusive or absent don't tell you what you like the sound of.

 

Edit: OR what sounds more life like for you.

Edited August 31 by muon*

[tripitaka]

@MLXXX I think this is a great thread topic, you are asking a very interesting question to help move the discussion forwards. I have heard some really beautiful sounding (to my ears) turntable rigs which, sadly, I could never afford. As to their accuracy, I could not attest (since I have human ears).  Yet I suspect the post from @davewantsmoore that you have quoted may prove helpful.

 

In any case, I'm disappearing from the Great Audio Debate for a month, based on a mental health challenge agreed with another SNA member, starting tomorrow,  1 September

 

Good luck and best wishes all. We all love music so let us not  argue too heatedly about its reproduction

[LHC]

On 12/07/2023 at 10:12 AM, MLXXX said:

However, some forum members who love vinyl technology still seem to think the reason for their love is that the sound is technically more faithful to the original analogue sound than digital could ever be. That is demonstrably a fallacy: digital technology can recreate the electric signals coming from a microphone with astonishing precision and transparency. Vinyl cannot.   The charm of vinyl must be for other reasons.

 

I don't know if your statement here is in any way related to the Paul McGowan video I posted in another thread. In any case Paul in that video did claimed that digital (DSD in his case) recording sounded the same as the microphone feed from their recording studio; whereas a vinyl recording would sound very different. That is true but we need to be careful of the details - Paul never claim that their DSD recording sound the same as the original analogue sound heard in the studio where the musicians performed the music for recording. In fact I have not seen anyone claim that modern recording technology can faithfully capture the original studio sound, either in digital or vinyl. Steve Guttenberg is someone who has spent time in a recording studio and always maintained that recordings cannot sound the same as live music. For Steve vinyl sounded a little more life-like than digital, but it is still far from being faithful.

 

There is another 'issue' with digital recording which I might post about at a later stage. 

[Addicted to music]

On 24/05/2021 at 11:31 PM, MLXXX said:

 

 

Is there something much better than this audio quality available when playing a vinyl disc, these days?

 

 

 

To answer the question: No there isn't. 

 

I cant go back and listen to vinyl or LP as they called it back in the day.   As soon as you hit play on this utube,  the SCP (snap crackle and pop) that starts of  can no longer tolerate.   As the dynamic range takes off on some albums the peaks are distorted to the point i no longer stand, this doesnt happen with digital unless its heavily compressed recording.  

I was at a SNA member who is a dedicated vinyl person,  he now rips his entire collection of vinyl to high resolution.  whats funny as we play these rips and then play the LP, is that when these very "audible distortions " occur, he "shrugs his shoulder "  like as nothing has occurred, in other words hes already tolerates what i can no longer.  

At a HIfi show, cant remember the rig, but some very expensive vinyl rig thats German made,  was over $50K plus of vinyl gear and puts on the ultimate LP of Louis Armstrong; it was like WTF!   I heard this on direct transfer on tape and its never as distorted as this, even another SNA member agreed!  

At another HiFi show i was listening to original tapes of a Studer Recorder;  tapes that are 40-60yrs old isn't exactly faithful to the recording as it deteriorate over time,  you can hear this "aged effect". Never with digital even if it was 16/44.

When digital CD came out, i was also under the belief and agreement the it didn't havre that sparkle like LP has........until i used a Stax Lambda MR2 headset.  When i went to this headphone it told me a lot about what i was tolerating on vinyl.  Few weeks in with this Stax , i can no longer listen to vinyl even on open 2 channel speakers because 'what has been heard cant be unheard"and its just there! 

 

5 hours ago, Hydrology said:

https://darko.audio/2023/08/when-hi-res-audio-cant-compete-with-vinyl/

 

 

 

Dynamic range is just one aspect of the recording, as noted and discussed,   compression has 2 advantages and still can sound decent if its done right:  increases quite notes making it more detailed and of cause increase loudness.  unfortunately, you get recordings that boost the compression that high its unlistenable.

 

23 minutes ago, LHC said:

 

I don't know if your statement here is in any way related to the Paul McGowan video I posted in another thread. In any case Paul in that video did claimed that digital (DSD in his case) recording sounded the same as the microphone feed from their recording studio; whereas a vinyl recording would sound very different. That is true but we need to be careful of the details - Paul never claim that their DSD recording sound the same as the original analogue sound heard in the studio where the musicians performed the music for recording. In fact I have not seen anyone claim that modern recording technology can faithfully capture the original studio sound, either in digital or vinyl. Steve Guttenberg is someone who has spent time in a recording studio and always maintained that recordings cannot sound the same as live music. For Steve vinyl sounded a little more life-like than digital, but it is still far from being faithful.

 

There is another 'issue' with digital recording which I might post about at a later stage. 

 

There are a few composers who have claimed that recording using digital techniques is far more accurate than any analog technique.  I agree with Paul on this.  However the process of recording using analog tapes is very different to using digital, even the transfer to media is different.   Traditional dedicate vinyl lovers often say that its what preferred, is it because they are use to the SQ like Steve Guttenberg and other dedicate well known owners,  who have listen to the effects and characteristic SQ of vinyl all there life that they find the other alternative just alienates them to the point they feel threatened?      

 

Edited August 31 by Addicted to music

[muon*]

Try a system that has no snap crackle and pop!

 

These things are not present in a good system with a well setup rig, and clean undamaged records.

[MLXXX]

7 hours ago, Hydrology said:

https://darko.audio/2023/08/when-hi-res-audio-cant-compete-with-vinyl/

 

 

Hi Hydrology, I didn't notice any actual needledrop recordings though the article has a number of cross-references and one of those might lead to an actual recording.  I did notice this narrative:

 

"What does it sound like? Listening back to my own vinyl rip through the same Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 integrated amplifier and KEF R3 Meta loudspeakers (to which the PS Audio phono stage was previously connected), I heard less crisply defined layer separation and softer transients than the hi-res download played back through the same system but also more meat, especially in the midrange.

The vinyl rip didn’t sound as nervy or as uptight (or as detailed!) as the hi-res download but if asked to choose only one set of FLACs as my forever version of Deluxe Stop Making Sense, I’d go with the vinyl rip. Whilst it doesn’t best the hi-res download/stream in all respects, here we have a solid example of why many people buy vinyl records in order to access a less dynamically compressed master."

 

It's a pity there's no actual recording.

[muon*]

This subject is a strange one in my view, as those that like vinyl would not like what those that dislike it prefer.

 

So It's not about what is better technically, as this hobby is about what each individual prefers subjectively due to the fact that we listen with our ears and that is processed by our brain.

 

If It's purely about the objective measurements, well that easy! and not controversial unless someone desires it to be.

[MLXXX]

4 hours ago, LHC said:

Paul never claim that their DSD recording sound the same as the original analogue sound heard in the studio where the musicians performed the music for recording. In fact I have not seen anyone claim that modern recording technology can faithfully capture the original studio sound, either in digital or vinyl.

Whether something sounds natural will depend on the microphone types and placements, the mix, and on speaker type and placement.  

 

We know that digital technology can faithfully reproduce the microphone signal and mix. In fact it is the one thing we can control to a high level of accuracy in recording and playback (an even freq response, low distortion, low noise).  Everything else is a variable!

Edited August 31 by MLXXX

[March Audio]

7 hours ago, muon* said:

Try a system that has no snap crackle and pop!

 

These things are not present in a good system with a well setup rig, and clean undamaged records.

 

The major problems of vinyl are inherent to the medium and simple physics (eg end of side distortion).  They cannot solved with a "well set up rig".  

 

Noise, scp and distortion are inevitable.

Edited August 31 by March Audio

[Addicted to music]

6 hours ago, muon* said:

Try a system that has no snap crackle and pop!

 

 

it’s called Digital…..and full digital doesn’t present such issues.  The passage are dead quite until the music starts, all you’re listening to is mic hiss or the present atmosphere if it’s a open recording…….  A well done digital recording will blow and analog away in terms of dynamic and clarity.   Listen to som pre 5.1 like Hell Freezes Over by the Eagles and the clarity and dynamics and the pin point accuracy of instruments puts you in the room where the recording source happens,  it will never be matched by ANY vinyl known to man…..  

 

 

7 hours ago, muon* said:

 

 

These things are not present in a good system with a well setup rig, and clean undamaged records.

Absolute rubbish,  I’ve been to dedicated vinyl owners and SNA members who are absolute dedicate in what they do with vinyl to get it enjoyable, take my hate off to them,  some even count the sides they play on the LP and keep track on stylus wear,  yet still it doesn’t matter what you say SCP is still there,  they have accepted and tolerated to the point it doesn’t bother them

[March Audio]

19 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Whether something sounds natural will depend on the microphone types and placements, the mix, and on speaker type and placement.  

 

Agreed.  The limitation is not the recording medium, its items you cite.

Edited September 1 by March Audio

[muon*]

3 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

it’s called Digital…..and full digital doesn’t present such issues.  The passage are dead quite until the music starts, all you’re listening to is mic hiss or the present atmosphere if it’s a open recording…….  A well done digital recording will blow and analog away in terms of dynamic and clarity.   Listen to som pre 5.1 like Hell Freezes Over by the Eagles and the clarity and dynamics and the pin point accuracy of instruments puts you in the room where the recording source happens,  it will never be matched by ANY vinyl known to man…..  

 

 

Absolute rubbish,  I’ve been to dedicated vinyl owners and SNA members who are absolute dedicate in what they do with vinyl to get it enjoyable, take my hate off to them,  some even count the sides they play on the LP and keep track on stylus wear,  yet still it doesn’t matter what you say SCP is still there,  they have accepted and tolerated to the point it doesn’t bother them

You say I'm speaking rubbish, I say you have no clue.

 

Edit: When I had my Sansui SR-828 and 2M Bronze another  member came over to pick up some tubes I had, and while here had a bit of a listen, his comment was "It's so clear!"

 

That comment was due to no snap crackle an pop present, so It's not rubbish at all.

Edited August 31 by muon*

[rantan]

4 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

 yet still it doesn’t matter what you say SCP is still there,  they have accepted and tolerated to the point it doesn’t bother them

 

No.

 

As you may know, I play and love both formats of disc......... but my vinyl collection does NOT have your stated "SCP " .

Unless you are eating that famous breakfast cereal while listening and using a Crosley portable,it is a non event and it is not a case of having been accepted and tolerated...........ever.

 

Of course, a damaged or completely worn vinyl album can do this but the VERY few I have in my collection are either not played at all or given to the local op shop.

 

What exactly is the point of chanting a mantra that is clearly untrue?

 

 

 

 

[Addicted to music]

3 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

No.

 

As you may know, I play and love both formats of disc......... but my vinyl collection does NOT have your stated "SCP " .

Unless you are eating that famous breakfast cereal while listening and using a Crosley portable,it is a non event and it is not a case of having been accepted and tolerated...........ever.

 

Of course, a damaged or completely worn vinyl album can do this but the VERY few I have in my collection are either not played at all or given to the local op shop.

 

What exactly is the point of chanting a mantra that is clearly untrue?

 

^^^^^^
 

Typical expected denial post like every other vinyl lover…….   The tolerance of SCP saids a lot…..   I haven’t seriously analytically listen to vinyl since the 80s since CD were introduced.  And I’m not going to,   Even though I still have a vinyl collection that’s dated back to that era: where the “better” analog LP were produced, nothing like todays transfer from digital  
 

 

[metal beat]

Is this April 1st or have some been drinking ?   LOLOLOL 

 

meanwhile I am listening to The Weeknd sounding wonderful on vinyl. 

  Rufus Du Soul - Live from Joshua Tree is going to arrive this arvo  - can't wait as it's mastered by CB/BG.

 

  All new release digital recordings that sound amazing on vinyl.

 

 U digital fanbois can believe what you like  

[rantan]

1 minute ago, Addicted to music said:

^^^^^^
 

Typical expected denial post like every other vinyl lover…….   The tolerance of SCP saids a lot…..   I haven’t seriously analytically listen to vinyl since the 80s since CD were introduced.  And I’m not going to,   Even though I still have a vinyl collection that’s dated back to that era: where the “better” analog LP were produced, nothing like todays transfer from digital  
 

 

 

Not sure if you are fishin'. but there ain't no bites n this pond mate

[muon*]

ATM's experience is what it is, it just vastly differs from some other's experiences.

[metal beat]

16 minutes ago, muon* said:

ATM's experience is what it is, it just vastly differs from some other's experiences.

 

You don't know what you don't know?  

[Marc]

How do you guys expect us to keep these threads open and running, when you tell each other "you are speaking rubbish", and "you have no clue", and often worse? 

 

It's there right in front of your eyes when you make a post - you can't miss it:

 

 

With this in mind - expect Warnings and time off from here on in. We have rarely used it in the past, but clearly some have forgotten the guidelines we all abide by when participating in this website.

[March Audio]

@MLXXX. I have some recordings coming soon for you to compare. Two different set ups:

 

1. MusicHall MMF 7.3 + Ortofon 2M Black + PSU Audio NuWave Phono stage.  The phono stage has an 192K A2D built in

 

2. $40K SME turntable with Koetsu cartridge from memory and digitised with M2 Tech Joplin at 96K or 192K. 

Edited September 1 by March Audio

[MLXXX]

4 minutes ago, March Audio said:

@MLXXX. I have some recordings coming soon for you to compare.

I  look forward to those!

 

The main purpose of this thread was to invite examples of the playing of vinyl pressings reflecting the state of the art:-

 

On 24/05/2021 at 11:31 PM, MLXXX said:

I am very open to being pleasantly "surprised" at modern vinyl sound!  Could someone please point me to an extract of a really good sounding transfer to digital of the playing of a vinyl disc, and for comparison an extract of the same musical performance released digitally?  I'm not looking for a heavily compressed digital version, or a performance of hard rock which might involve intentional distortion of the sound. A soft ballad, or a classical music performance would be much more my style, and hopefully would be revealing of sound qualiity.

 

. 

[LHC]

On 24/05/2021 at 11:01 PM, MLXXX said:

I am very open to being pleasantly "surprised" at modern vinyl sound!  Could someone please point me to an extract of a really good sounding transfer to digital of the playing of a vinyl disc, and for comparison an extract of the same musical performance released digitally?

 

I will see if I can find something that fits your request.

 

To be clear what you are asking for is a modern vinyl pressing (then needle dropped to a digital format) and the digital release of the same music. I assume you already know that their individual mastering are going to be very different, therefore you are in effect comparing apple with orange. So be it.