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Posted

Hey all,

Apologies for the slightly provocative title :thumb:

I guess my question essentially stems down to: Say you have $3k to spend on speakers. If you buy kits, parts, etc, and do it yourself, how much value for money are you getting (not taking into account the time it takes you to put them together)?

Further, what are the chances of things seriously going wrong, and what kind of equipment/knowledge do you need?

Cheers

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Posted

If you get a good design and use quality components(for $3k you would be getting some damn nice stuff) you should beat a commercial speaker of the same type. You look at all the companies who use Seas excel , Scanspeak, Accuton drivers just to name a few. All well in the thousands of dollars.

It depends on what you mean by "seriously going wrong". If you have a pre-designed speaker you like the look of and you have all the details, it should all go relatively smoothly. Depending on what design you end up going for, the crossovers may come presoldered. Thats also dependant on where you get them from.

So all you need to have is the cabinets cut(per design spec), finish them the way you want(veneer, paint etc). Order the components and drivers, damping, cable, terminals, screws, ports and whatever else you need for the design. Then you need some side cutters, soldering iron and solder(if assembling the xovers yourself).

Place everything in the cabinet as per design, connect your amp and away you go. The beauty with diy though, is that your able to test the sound before you finalize the speaker. Then you can make any needed adjustments to the xover, with the help of the designer or supplier and tune it to your preference.

I suggest taking a look at the sites below. These are probably the 3 most respected designers on the net:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download.html

http://www.zaphaudio.com/

Cheers

Posted
Hey all,

Apologies for the slightly provocative title :thumb:

I guess my question essentially stems down to: Say you have $3k to spend on speakers. If you buy kits, parts, etc, and do it yourself, how much value for money are you getting (not taking into account the time it takes you to put them together)?

Further, what are the chances of things seriously going wrong, and what kind of equipment/knowledge do you need?

Cheers

Hello XT,

Well everything in life is something of a risk, but ..........

a $3000 speaker, may have anything between $300-600 of cost built in, maybe even $1000ish depending on the marketing/distribution model of the manufacturer. Building the speaker yourself has more risk (of an unsatisfactory outcome), but it also has more reward, not only in personal development terms, but also potentially in performance terms, as one is able to use the whole $3000 towards the cost of the speakers, which provides the possibility for better componentry, construction and finish.

Best

JA

Posted

Thanks guys! Much appreciated. The fact that you would be spending all of the money on materials as opposed to... assisting with profit margins, is what makes it so appealing I think. I'll have to look into it.

Posted

Not to mention the knowledge and the fun.

The con for me is the cabinet making, my speakers look shyte but sound ok.

Since my last efforts I have learnt more, so the next crossovers would be better.

Alot of the final sound is impacted by the crossover choices...

Posted

What can go wrong? Well, you could chop your fingers off!

The main risk lies in not having heard it before spending money.

I have a DIY floorstander (TL) speaker on my blog. Costs about $1k to build and has comparable parts to a retail $5k+ speaker. That is a good amount to spend. It has some nice Vifa drivers which you can still get at Jaycar. You could take a step up and go for something with Scan Speak drivers. Speaking of which, Cheeky has a Scan Speak DIY speaker in the classifieds, worth checking out. The work is done. That is one of the projects I would point you to anyway.

$3k is a lot to spend on a DIY project. Often there is no need to spend that much. It's not like buying retail speakers where you can keep spending more and more. Here the point of diminishing returns kicks in much much earlier.

Posted (edited)
what kind of equipment/knowledge do you need?

This to me is the big downside to the diy approach. If you are new to diy in general you have to start from scratch acquiring an array of tools that you've not found a use for previously and may never use again it can be a fairly costly exercise.

If you include the one off costs of tools into the cost of the speaker build process it starts to erode the value equation pretty quickly.

On the other hand with diy speakers you have the ability to design from scratch or tweak existing known designs by a respected speaker designer's published (some linked earlier in the thread) design to suit your budget, taste, room and the rest of your system. There is a rabbit hole filled with knowledge and ideas on the internet and one of the biggest limitations is finding time to read it and isolating the good parts!

In short I think diy speakers make the most sense if you are intending to enjoy the learning journey and make it a hobby and build at least a few speakers.

Edited by zman
Posted

The biggest problem with DIY speakers is not really the risk vs return argument; it's a problem with addiction. You see, building speakers is a dangerous addiction ruining the lives of men all over the world. We enter the addiction with good intentions - perhaps to get more value from our hifi or for that sense of satisfaction you get from building something yourself. Eventually life is consumed by either building a speaker or stealing time to flesh out the plans for our next build. I think you would have trouble finding anyone who has built a pair of speakers that doesn't have some scheme underway for their next set, or at least tweaks to their last build.

Please, won't someone think of the audiofools and put an end to this terrible condition.

Posted
The biggest problem with DIY speakers is not really the risk vs return argument; it's a problem with addiction.

:hiccup

Just like cookies, it is hard to stop at just 1.

These days, if a speaker retails at $100, there is probably $10 in parts & boxes. If you are buying directly from a cottage industry manufacturer, there is likely $25-50 worth of parts & boxes (at retail -- he is likely getting at least a small discount on those). If you are buying from a diyer, there is likely $75-150 worth of parts & boxes. If you are buying my R&D boxes, $90-110 worth of bits i always have more of them, than i really have room for -- just after annual diyFEST, i probably have 20-some pairs.

As a diyer, you can build speakers that would not be available in the market-place. This is particularily true of my playground, full-range (or mostly FR) speakers.

$3000 is a crazy amount to drop on a diy speaker, especially a 1st one (mark what MellowFellow said about addiction). I'm working on a statement speaker now, i'd have to work at it to put $3k into it (it would need to include the woofer amps and be made with bamboo ply, and even then i'd have to get silly). I have little doubt it will outdo the $20k Ellipsas down at the local hifi emporium (the only speaker they have had that in the last 10 years that have caught my attention (sonically)).

For a 1st time project i strongly recommend doing a modest proven design. Pretty easy within this remit to end up with something that compares to $3k spent at the shop on high street.

Someone mentioned tools. If you are already a woodworker (or have a buddy with tools), you are already prepared. If you are looking to buy tools to diy a set of speakers, that seriously skews the cost (upwards). Tool cost can easily exceed the cost of the speakers, hard to amortize against a single pair of speakers. So you need to be headed that way already. But guys (and the few intrepid gals) have built speakers with not much more than a jigsaw and a soldering iron (but usually not real pretty)

There are ways to do it will minimal tools. Don't know about Oz, but here in NA, you can get pre-built boxes (some are not that good, but the better ones (PE curved cabinets) are reasonable. Just cut holes, wire em up and go. A step more diy is getting a flat-pak. Choice for these is still somewhat limited. As an example thou if you live in the Melbourne* area (or reasonable shiping away), a Frugel-Horn Mk3 flat-pak with Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 drivers will probably set you back on the order of $600. It should easily outdo those 3k retail speakers at the shop -- unless what you are after is ear damaging loud or you have a really big room -- add a pair of powered helper woofers as a 2nd project and much of that is taken care of. Hey look you are already on your 2nd cookie :thumb:

My FH3 flat-paks can usually be assembled with glue, masking tape (clamp substitutes), screwdriver, drill, and soldering iron (+ finish), hopefully others are as easy. If you want to see what is involved there is a pictoral assembly guide embedded in this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planet-10-hifi/184088-frugel-horn-mk3-flat-paks.html (don't ask -- these exceed the 20kg limit of post from Canada to Oz)

*Ben at Sound with Style (i have no relationship except providing moral support). I've been talking with someone in Brisbane as well, they could probably be pushed over the edge with an order. I'm on a campaign to encourage this cottage industry all over the world (no financial interest on my part)

dave

Posted

I think one of the greatest benefits of building your own speakers is spending hours in the shed away from the psychotic rants. "You're a uselss piece of sh*t, Nigel, with a tiny thingy, why don't you stay out in the shed with your precious speakers. You expect me to clean house, cook the meals. You're not a man, you're a selfish, no good turd on the footpath of life".

Posted
I think one of the greatest benefits of building your own speakers is spending hours in the shed away from the psychotic rants. "You're a uselss piece of sh*t, Nigel, with a tiny thingy, why don't you stay out in the shed with your precious speakers. You expect me to clean house, cook the meals. You're not a man, you're a selfish, no good turd on the footpath of life".

So the upside is that she recognises how precious the speakers are, LOL.

Posted

Braging rights to your mates!

Seriously, Have assembled a couple of kits but that is to easy. Recently made a basic saw bench with an el cheapo Ozito saw bolted underneath. I'm just starting to get into it, ground up builds and think I'm hooked already. Tricky part for me has been geting the crossovers right and the carpentry for that matter to but having fun with it and learning heaps along the way.

Posted

IME purchasing secondhand speakers is the best value and safest option:

- You can audition prior to purchase.

- They are usually burnt in.

- If upgrading later secondhand will usually mean less of a financial loss, or maybe even a profit if you're shrewd.

- DIY is very hard to on sell in the secondhand market and if you invest a lot in a project the loss to upgrade can be significant.

- How much is your time worth? Don't underestimate all the time spent building could be listening time or family time!

- If speaker building/designing was so easy then why aren't all speakers excellent sounding?

- A speaker is the sum of all its parts combined with R&D. The best parts don't guarantee the best outcomes.

- If you have the slightest doubt in you ability to build, assemble or resolve technical problems with DIY, IMHO don't do it.

Cheers, flemo

Posted

Hi Xy

If its going to be your first project maybe you"ll be better of going with a kit speaker therws plenty out there for all taste and budgets .I heard a pair of these on the weekend and I don't think you could go wrong even if you were to sell at a later stage .If Buzz has another GTG theres a chance you could hear a pair .

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/33989-DTQWT-Build-)

Theres always someone on the forum that could get the cabinets made .Atleast with the kit the drivers are selected and the xovers have been worked out as well as the cabinet dimension's .

In the end resale doesn't really mean much its a ratio thing .

CHeers

Posted
IME purchasing secondhand speakers is the best value and safest option:

I agree, if you are just looking at it as for a bang for buck issue, and don't have a pile of electronics tools, measurement rigs and woodworking equipment handy - I'd go to ebay or the ads on this site, see whats cheap and google for reviews.

I've learnt a huge amount about audio and got a lot of satisfaction with DIY, but the time spent on it I find a relaxing way to unwind on weekends and after work.

Posted

Xy i heard Buzzzs speakers they are indeed very nice. They are on Troels website. I also built the jazzzman from troels website, you are welcome to hear them too. The Zaph speakers Cheeky built also sound great. These three cover variuos budgets. Your welcome to hear mine.

Posted
Xy i heard Buzzzs speakers they are indeed very nice. They are on Troels website. I also built the jazzzman from troels website, you are welcome to hear them too. The Zaph speakers Cheeky built also sound great. These three cover variuos budgets. Your welcome to hear mine.

Now thats a very nice offer :rolleyes: .

Pat at WarAudio http://www.warco.com.au/ can also offer kits but there going to harder to listen to . Also Leon & James at http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/ have kits as well .

Cheers

Posted

There is no such thing as "unsatisfactory outcome" with DIY. The pleasure is in the ride not the outcome - when you build something yourself you can change it yourself and have even more fun. Just remember do not rush to finish - just enjoy the ride.

Posted
Mal the boys from the west are welcome to come over anytime.

Cheers mate.

Just remember do not rush to finish .

Thats the way I roll :rolleyes: .

CHeers

Posted
Jaycar JV60 is hard to beat for the $ and available after a long break:

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=CS2562

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=CS2560

ALW

I have instructions on my blog about some mods to it and a TL box. It has always been the most popular page.

There is no such thing as "unsatisfactory outcome" with DIY. The pleasure is in the ride not the outcome - when you build something yourself you can change it yourself and have even more fun. Just remember do not rush to finish - just enjoy the ride.

While your point certainly isn't lost on me, I think there are some who wouldn't agree, who got in over their head and were in it for the result rather than the journey. Of course, I'm in it for both. I wouldn't keep doing it if I didn't like the journey, nor would I if I didn't also reach a destination every now and then.

Posted
There is no such thing as "unsatisfactory outcome" with DIY. The pleasure is in the ride not the outcome - when you build something yourself you can change it yourself and have even more fun. Just remember do not rush to finish - just enjoy the ride.

That's it Decky. I'm only just starting out but find it relaxing to go down to my little workshop under the house, some music and a couple of beers. Just make sure the beers only come after any cuts on the saw bench.

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