Archimago measures Ethernet cables

[Steffen]

7 minutes ago, frednork said:

Lovely plumage though

 

The plumage don’t enter into it!

[sir sanders zingmore]

19 minutes ago, andyr said:

What @Stereophilus was saying - which I understood to mean ... the simple measurements that current technology allows us to take does not cover all the sonic differences that we can hear,

That’s also what I took his comments to mean. My response is unchanged  

[sir sanders zingmore]

23 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

There are (many) unanswered questions that require a thorough methodology to reach valid conclusions about what we hear when we reproduce recorded music and why

Do any of these questions relate to Ethernet cables?

[Stereophilus]

1 minute ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Do any of these questions relate to Ethernet cables?

nice.

 

Clearly there are and it is why we are all here sharing our thoughts somewhat amicably.

 

Archimago prodded his "dead" parrot with a stick and concluded it was dead when it didn't  respond.  I'm not yet convinced that the only explanation for a bird that is prodded with stick to remain motionless is death.

[sir sanders zingmore]

10 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Clearly there are and it is why we are all here sharing our thoughts somewhat amicably.

If there are indeed studies that show that in the absence of other known and understood reasons, there are audible differences between Ethernet cables then I agree, science should investigate. 

[Ittaku]

Just now, sir sanders zingmore said:

If there are indeed studies that show that in the absence of other known and understood reasons, there are audible differences between Ethernet cables then I agree, science should investigate. 

Are there?

[bob_m_54]

3 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Are there?

Do you mean other than filtered customer feedback on manufacturers websites?

Edited March 16, 2021 by bob_m_54

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

Are there?

I guess the “it’s not dead, it’s resting” folk will furnish them presently  

[Ittaku]

2 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

 The denial of audible difference in the absence of measurable difference is really just lazy science.  There remains a great opportunity to explore and expand the science of audio reproduction and human hearing. 

What do you suggest they measure?

[Stereophilus]

20 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

If there are indeed studies that show that in the absence of other known and understood reasons, there are audible differences between Ethernet cables then I agree, science should investigate. 

There are none that I know of, but that is not reason enough to not explore further.

 

14 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

What do you suggest they measure?

Firstly, please understand that like you, Con, I have a university and post-graduate education that encourages critical thinking.  In this forum I am applying that critical thinking to a hobby I indulge.  I am not specifically proficient in the science of music reproduction.  However, from what I know, my suspicions are:

1) that our current knowledge significantly underestimates our ability to differentiate subtle changes in a complex mix of air pressure frequencies (ie music).

2) that we neglect whole system effects when we measure individual parts.

3) our current controls for minimising the impact of psychoacoustics (ie blind testing) are poorly understood and poorly implemented in general.

[sir sanders zingmore]

9 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

There are none that I know of, but that is not reason enough to not explore further.

 

Firstly, please understand that like you, Con, I have a university and post-graduate education that encourages critical thinking.  In this forum I am applying that critical thinking to a hobby I indulge.  I am not specifically proficient in the science of music reproduction.  However, from what I know, my suspicions are:

1) that our current knowledge significantly underestimates our ability to differentiate subtle changes in a complex mix of air pressure frequencies (ie music).

2) that we neglect whole system effects when we measure individual parts.

3) our current controls for minimising the impact of psychoacoustics (ie blind testing) are poorly understood and poorly implemented in general.

Our current knowledge of gravity doesn’t allow us to incorporate quantum mechanics. The theory is incomplete and there is a vast amount science doesn’t know. 

But if I claim my ability to levitate is evidence of that incompleteness, I fully expect scientists to think critically and decide no further investigation is required. 

[Telecine]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

What do you suggest they measure?

 

I would suggest 1's and 0's.

[bob_m_54]

12 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

There are none that I know of, but that is not reason enough to not explore further.

 

Firstly, please understand that like you, Con, I have a university and post-graduate education that encourages critical thinking.  In this forum I am applying that critical thinking to a hobby I indulge.  I am not specifically proficient in the science of music reproduction.  However, from what I know, my suspicions are:

1) that our current knowledge significantly underestimates our ability to differentiate subtle changes in a complex mix of air pressure frequencies (ie music).

2) that we neglect whole system effects when we measure individual parts.

3) our current controls for minimising the impact of psychoacoustics (ie blind testing) are poorly understood and poorly implemented in general.

Firstly understand that I don't have a university education. I do however have extensive experience in the field of electronics and electrical engineering principles.

 

1) Our current knowledge of electrical principals and technology enables us to examine the electrical signals, that are applied to the transducer, to produce those changes in sound pressure to an infinitesimal degree.

 

2) It is appropriate to examine individual parts of the system, when claims are made that certain individual parts do make a difference, when well researched and proven electrical engineering principals would say they didn't.

 

3) yes. But that is more a reason to believe that any any perceived difference is a product of psychoacoustics, when there is no hard evidence to support it.

[bob_m_54]

7 minutes ago, Telecine said:

 

I would suggest 1's and 0's.

Why not pulse rate, body temperature and brain activity?

[muon*]

10 minutes ago, Telecine said:

 

I would suggest 1's and 0's.

And that's why nothing computer related sounds different, not even software players

[Stereophilus]

4 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Our current knowledge of gravity doesn’t allow us to incorporate quantum mechanics. The theory is incomplete and there is a vast amount science doesn’t know. 

But if I claim my ability to levitate is evidence of that incompleteness, I fully expect scientists to think critically and decide no further investigation is required. 

In regards to your claim, yes, that would be reasonable, at least for now.  But that will not impede the further advancement of knowledge.  It would naive to think we won't someday have the means to explore your claim with more rigour.

 

For the reasons I mentioned above, the science behind music reproduction remains relatively simplistic.  And it overlaps with the science of psychology, which is unlike the other sciences in many ways.  We still have much to learn.

[Telecine]

2 minutes ago, muon* said:

And that's why nothing computer related sounds different, not even software players

 

Data transmitted over ethernet cannot sound different if it is error free.

[muon*]

4 minutes ago, Telecine said:

 

Data transmitted over ethernet cannot sound different if it is error free.

Maybe, I don't know.

 

But I do know most people around here said that software players can't sound different to one another because It's all 1's and 0's, it seems like a fall back to any questions where binary code is used.

[Telecine]

1 minute ago, muon* said:

Maybe, I don't know.

 

But I do know most people around here said that software players can't sound different to one another because It's all 1's and 0's, it seems like a fall back to any questions where binary code is used.

 

Encoding, decoding and playback equipment can alter the sound, the data doesn't change. Spend you money on playback equipment rather than ethernet equipment.

[muon*]

1 minute ago, Telecine said:

 

Encoding, decoding and playback equipment can alter the sound, the data doesn't change. Spend you money on playback equipment rather than ethernet equipment.

To your knowledge and the current popular understanding of it.

 

Like many other things, I'll wait and see if things change in time

[Stereophilus]

8 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

1) Our current knowledge of electrical principals and technology enables us to examine the electrical signals, that are applied to the transducer, to produce those changes in sound pressure to an infinitesimal degree.

And you will note that I was careful to describe that the concern was not with the specifics of the electrical signal.

 

8 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

2) It is appropriate to examine individual parts of the system, when claims are made that certain individual parts do make a difference, when well researched and proven electrical engineering principals would say they didn't.

Yes it is appropriate to do that, but there is possibly a broader issue at play that is neglected in isolated testing.  This is an unproven theory, and conjecture on my part. 

 

8 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

3) yes. But that is more a reason to believe that any any perceived difference is a product of psychoacoustics, when there is no hard evidence to support it.

Sure.  But I'm curious and I believe we can do better than resorting to questionable methodology and faulty assumptions.

[Telecine]

1 minute ago, muon* said:

To your knowledge and the current popular understanding of it.

 

Like many other things, I'll wait and see if things change in time

 

180M Netflix subscribers have voted with their wallet.

[muon*]

1 minute ago, Telecine said:

 

180M Netflix subscribers have voted with their wallet.

That a poor example to rational thinking............. Netflix

 

Anyway, enough fun, I'll leave this for the people it matters to most.

[Telecine]

22 minutes ago, muon* said:

That a poor example to rational thinking............. Netflix

 

Anyway, enough fun, I'll leave this for the people it matters to most.

 

In fact it is a very good example of the robustness of the protocols and stack, working as designed over a variety of equipment and connections while preserving the integrity of the jitter prone data.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Telecine

[bob_m_54]

13 minutes ago, Telecine said:

 

In fact it is a very good example of the robustness of the protocols and stack, working as designed over a variety of equipment and connections while reserving the integrity of the jitter prone data.

cum on, you can't use that sort of language in a discussion about whether USB cables sound different to each other...

 

Geez next thing you'll start bringing logic into the discussion as well.