amdan Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I was talking to a dealer recently and he described his experience with a customer which left me astonished. The dealer spent 2 hours demonstrating this piece of equipment to the customer. After which, the customer whipped out his iPhone and showed the dealer how he could buy the same equipment used for just over half price - which is exactly what he was going to do. The dealer also told me he had another similar experience where the customer whipped out his iPhone and showed him an online price - which was of course cheaper. The dealer did not get this sale either. The dealer has decided to close his retail shop. Buying elsewhere after spending the dealer's time in a situation like this seems very unethical to me. The customer was only there to get the demo and had no intention of buying. That's like stealing. I believe there is an unspoken contract that when you spend any retailer's time you have some intention of buying. Telling the dealer that you were going to buy elsewhere was stunningly rude and obnoxious. My approach is to give the dealer a fair go. If I get a demo I will not buy used or online unless the dealer is clearly gouging (I have yet to come across this). Say the RRP is $1000 and the on-line price is $800. I would shop the price with the dealer. However, I don't expect a dealer who has spent his precious time with me, has to pay for the rental overhead not to mention keeping stock to match the on-line price. I would be happy with a price of $900 which any dealer would be happy to do. A 10% discount is fairly standard and easy to do. How do the rest of you approach this?
Decky Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 ...and how about when customer asks for a 20% discount and you give it to him, and than he says "no thanks"?
Darryl Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I'm with you amdan, it's mind boggling how someone can behave that way.
Guest Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 This sort of thing isn't new and not just subjected to audio .When my parents had a photograghy shop the would have customers coming in saying the same thing I can buy it cheaper down the road .But what got me .when they did buy it down the road they got no after sales service and would come back to my parents shop and ask them how to use the camera . Cheers
Guest The Fresh Prince Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I was talking to a dealer recently and he described his experience with a customer which left me astonished. The dealer spent 2 hours demonstrating this piece of equipment to the customer. After which, the customer whipped out his iPhone and showed the dealer how he could buy the same equipment used for just over half price - which is exactly what he was going to do.The dealer also told me he had another similar experience where the customer whipped out his iPhone and showed him an online price - which was of course cheaper. The dealer did not get this sale either. The dealer has decided to close his retail shop. Buying elsewhere after spending the dealer's time in a situation like this seems very unethical to me. The customer was only there to get the demo and had no intention of buying. That's like stealing. I believe there is an unspoken contract that when you spend any retailer's time you have some intention of buying. Telling the dealer that you were going to buy elsewhere was stunningly rude and obnoxious. My approach is to give the dealer a fair go. If I get a demo I will not buy used or online unless the dealer is clearly gouging (I have yet to come across this). Say the RRP is $1000 and the on-line price is $800. I would shop the price with the dealer. However, I don't expect a dealer who has spent his precious time with me, has to pay for the rental overhead not to mention keeping stock to match the on-line price. I would be happy with a price of $900 which any dealer would be happy to do. A 10% discount is fairly standard and easy to do. How do the rest of you approach this? Very sad. I have heard this story also. The aforementioned shop will close, but I believe the business will be run from home.
frankn Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Not good form old chap - bounders no doubt. Now, what about the proprieter that has a pair of speakers listed at say $5K which he will happily reduce by 5-10% - you purchase but two weeks later you see he is advertising online for 15-20% off? Shouldn't they ring you up and offer you money back? It is swings and roundabouts. I try to know what price I want to pay before I go shopping, checkout the internet etc but with a mind to use local business whenever I can even if it costs a bit more - how much more depends on the purchase. I also want that local retailer to allow me to go listen to gear even if I'm not ready to purchase, or loan me gear to try at home. There is no doubt that the internet & mobile communication is having an effect on retail - along with the buy it cheapest mentality of the majority of customers. IMO retailers with service will come through, but in future it might mean that customers will have limited access to listen to equipment. Look at the newer(?) model of marketing of some organisations - ppl with high(er)-end setups in their homes - you want to see some of the other models - you have to travel interstate, perhaps wait or purchase in good faith that it will suffice your lust
Ray H Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Yes, this is a story that seems to be more and more prevalent. certainly seems to be a lot of the younger generation (not solely them either unfortunately) looking for a stone cold bargain that dont quite understand the benefit's of customer service and the after market care and support provided after an initial demonstration. I can understand wanting a bargain but wasting a person/dealers time is one thing but to then rub it in his face (ie with intent to already purchase elsewhere or second hand) is very rude and perhaps based on ignorance in a lot of cases. Unfortunately this is part of the reason that long time audiophiles will loose out in the long run with fewer and fewer dealers to go to to actually demo a product prior to purchase, who would want to be a bricks and mortar Hi Fi dealership nowadays, it seems only those selling on reputation and to the ignorant rich are the ones that seem to be able to keep making a dollar. Of course there is online retail, cheaper prices but often you dont quite know how the item you buy is going to sound or work in your system, a true contradiction in that it has never been cheaper or more competitive to buy new equipment and this has also boosted the amount of products and cheap prices available in the second hand equipment market, as evidenced by the falling prices of some of the high-end speakers in the FS section here on SNA. Unfortunately I think the attitudes of some dealers in the last few years has had a certain amount to do with scaring off new potential audiophiles from purchasing from these dealerships, making online retail even more attractive, thus why mag/online reviews can be such a strong selling tool. I would certainly not approach a dealer prior to knowing if they offered a competitive enough price coupled with the service and demo as part of the package to make it a strong purchasing situation.
Aslan Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Nothing new there amdan and decky. Times are tough and the world we live in is currently populated with low ballers, vultures, and arrogant arseholes who want to screw you into the ground to save a quid themselves. They don't give a damn about anyone but themselves and object to you trying to earn a living too. Get used to it.............it is the way of the future.
valvelover Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Without sounding mean, business wants a free market. That door swings both ways - business and potential purchaser. As to manners and ethics, whilst I personally think what the person(s) did in the OP's post is wrong, how do you think the wealthy magnates become super filthy rich? I'm sure it wasn't through being nice, and polite, and morally behaved. I'm not championing this sort of, what I personally consider, as very bad ethics, but I can understand where it's coming from. It doesn't mean I like it, but one has to ackowledge it, or we're living with our heads in the sand. I do suspect that the majority of potential customers do the right thing, but alas, there will always be a small percentage that don't. And I do not think that will ever change sadly. One more thing - how does one judge price gouging... Dave
tricka Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 and object to you trying to earn a living too. Actually mate..I don't think they think about that. I'd suggest they just act in their own interest without regard for the consequences to you. I'd be surprised if anyone actually took the time to object to anything to do with the retailer. The internet has and will forever change retail. We are in a time of great change. The infrastructure constructed to support the bricks and mortar retail model will I suggest break down over the next 20 years, to be replaced by an efficient online service. Unfortunately in evolution a few species don't make it. Having said that the customer referred to is a complete spiv.
JA Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Leaving aside the unscrupulous conduct mentioned, it's just human nature to want to get the best outcome in any transaction. We're wired for it. The retailer want's the best for themselves as does the buyer. If an arrangement can be reached there's a sale. If not, wait for another buyer or go find another vendor. Best JA
cableconnoisseur Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 This is precisely why I don't miss my 'retailing' days................. A good sales person ought to resort to asking certain questions to 'qualify' a customer before spending a couple of hours demonstrating something. It may offend some, but if the buyer is genuine, they'll appreciate why you're asking the question/s before spending valuable time with them. 'Nuff said.
proftournesol Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 It sounds like a sale that he was never going to have so then not really a sale lost. The sale really hinges on the ability to form a trusting relationship between the possible customer and the shop salesperson, but that takes 2 people willing to make it work.
brumby Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 This is precisely why I don't miss my 'retailing' days.................A good sales person ought to resort to asking certain questions to 'qualify' a customer before spending a couple of hours demonstrating something. It may offend some, but if the buyer is genuine, they'll appreciate why you're asking the question/s before spending valuable time with them. 'Nuff said. That is absolutely spot on. Except I wouldn't say the sales person should "resort" to the questions, I'd say he or she should ALWAYS ask them first up. This used to be known as "qualifying" customers. Obviously, the f**kwit in the OP's example did not qualify. Ever fewer people do these days. That is one among many reasons why bricks and mortar retail is going down the tubes and will never be the same again. Given modern shipping methods and global access from anywhere thanks to the internet, most people no longer deem a "middleman" as necessary. If there is room for the retail trade in future - it will be on a basis of expertise and service both before and AFTER the sale. This is something that not many Aussie retail outlets still provide. Some do, though (or did - vale Aslan for one) and some are even still managing to prosper. But most "customers" these days are not really customers at all. They want everything a retail establishment can provide without giving anything in return, least of all an actual "sale". An "exchange" entails give and take on BOTH sides of the bargain. The majority of retailers and the VAST majority of their "customers" seem to have forgotten that. Oh well, it's their loss, on both sides of the cash register.
valvelover Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 It sounds like a sale that he was never going to have so then not really a sale lost. The sale really hinges on the ability to form a trusting relationship between the possible customer and the shop salesperson, but that takes 2 people willing to make it work. yeah but the problem is Mike that the audio demonstration took this business's time. That time could have been used to help another customer, do the accounts, sort out advertising/marketing requirements, unpack stock, hone the various demonstration setups, etc etc. OK, at home, we can waste time and it's really inconsequential. During work, we cannot. Dave
Orpheus Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I buy quite a lot of gear. I buy some of it here, and some of it overseas, some of it new, and some of it second-hand. Once I have decided what I want, I want to buy it for as little as possible. It is my job to work out at what price the seller is prepared to sell, and his job to work out at what price I am prepared to pay. For us both to be good at that game, both of us must be prepared to walk away. That's the reality. I might like some people who want to sell me things, and I may even form a sort of relationship with them. But when it comes to business, I do not want to feel manipulated or guilty. Often, listening to equipment in a showroom is only a starting point anyway, because it is hard to know what it will sound like in your system. If I like it, and the shop is prepared to allow me to take it home, and I still like it, it is likely that I will buy it from the person who allowed me to do it, rather than someone else. Apart from anything else, it is easier, because I do not have to pick it up, have it couriered, etc, etc. But provided I have not given a false impression, I do not owe the salesperson anything. They have lent to me in the hope that it will lead to a sale, not on the promise that it will. Harsh, I know, and sometimes complicated by a genuine sense of warmth in the relationship (which perhaps, subconsciously, becomes worth a premium), but these are market transactions.
Tony M Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 But, Russ, I must admit to being totally P****D off by the rote qualifying questions. I hate shopping for cars, but when I do I try to have a tricky answer to the inevitable "What are you driving now, sir" I think the very best sales people take a far more subtle approach. They seem to effortlessly engage the prospective purchaser in conversation but remain attuned for clues and information that will indicate what the buyer is after and if they are genuine or a tyre-kicker. IMHO the best sales people are very easy-going, personable types who are genuinely knowledgeable and infectiously enthusiastic about the products they are selling and appear to be demoing the item for the sheer fun and enjoyment of doing so. I guess this approach is becoming more and more difficult to maintain in the current retail environment. Another conclusion I've come to over many decades of buying a lot of stuff and selling some is that "playing games" is a waste of everyone's time. Being totally candid just seems to work better for me, even as a seller - nothing can then turn around and bite you. Cheers Tony This is precisely why I don't miss my 'retailing' days.................A good sales person ought to resort to asking certain questions to 'qualify' a customer before spending a couple of hours demonstrating something. It may offend some, but if the buyer is genuine, they'll appreciate why you're asking the question/s before spending valuable time with them. 'Nuff said.
Zammo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Certainly poor form, bit I wouldn't quite equate it to stealing. There is no contract entered into by sampling a pair of speakers, just as there is no contract entered into by test driving a car. Sure, it's a waste of the retailers time if there is no intention to buy, and additionally demanding an unrealistic price (by comparison with a second hand product with no warranty of after sales service) is unfair, but then the world is full of arseholes. As cableconnoisseur suggested, there are ways to weed out tyre kickers to minimise such situations, but in the end you just have to move on to the next potential sale. From a consumer perspective, though, I can understand the need to negotiate a price that results in me not feeling as though I have been ripped off. Big brand products (whether it be audio or other) are often ridiculously overpriced in the Australian market. For example, I don't even bother buying parts for my road bike locally - my tyres are $120 each locally, or $45 each online. There is no excuse for such gouging. Tyres are cheap to ship, need no warranty, are subject to minimal tax, require no special storage conditions etc. That said, I bought my bike itself from a local store - fitting, free service for a year, etc. If retailers don't adapt to the increased buying power of consumers provided by the internet, they will go the way of the dodo. Provision of unique locally produced products, after sales service, acceptance that online prices will necessitate more competitive pricing - all these are necessary to survive in todays market.
Orpheus Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) That is absolutely spot on. Except I wouldn't say the sales person should "resort" to the questions, I'd say he or she should ALWAYS ask them first up. This used to be known as "qualifying" customers.Obviously, the f**kwit in the OP's example did not qualify. Ever fewer people do these days. That is one among many reasons why bricks and mortar retail is going down the tubes and will never be the same again. Given modern shipping methods and global access from anywhere thanks to the internet, most people no longer deem a "middleman" as necessary. If there is room for the retail trade in future - it will be on a basis of expertise and service both before and AFTER the sale. This is something that not many Aussie retail outlets still provide. Some do, though (or did - vale Aslan for one) and some are even still managing to prosper. But most "customers" these days are not really customers at all. They want everything a retail establishment can provide without giving anything in return, least of all an actual "sale". An "exchange" entails give and take on BOTH sides of the bargain. The majority of retailers and the VAST majority of their "customers" seem to have forgotten that. Oh well, it's their loss, on both sides of the cash register. What did the salesperson in the example given lose, apart from a couple of hours of their time, which they were going to spend in the shop anyway? They learnt something about what other people were prepared to sell this guy the piece of equipment for, they learnt something about his attitude, and they learnt something about what particular sort of equipment and sound that particular bloke likes. If they handled it really well, they had a potential customer in the future. I have known plenty of salespeople genuinely interested in the equipment and what I think of it (Mick Stallone is one, and Joe at Audio Connection is another(I mean little Joe, not the Joe who is the boss, who is a figure of mystery to me)), and have got me to sit down and listen to things (after I've auditioned what I want to audition) that they know I have no interest in, and know I won't purchase. Ultimately, I either have, or will buy something from them, and the fact that they are prepared to approach it that way makes it even more likely. Edited July 9, 2011 by Orpheus
Guest guru Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 it wouldn't worry me at all, it would be considered a cheap escape from someone you wouldn't want to deal with but on the way out i would mention the internal component upgrades possible to improve the performance of said component in question and how much of a difference they make. the dagger of doubt is now lodged firmly between the shoulder blades and let the online retailer answer those questions.
Orpheus Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 it wouldn't worry me at all, it would be considered a cheap escape from someone you wouldn't want to deal with but on the way out i would mention the internal component upgrades possible to improve the performance of said component in question and how much of a difference they make. the dagger of doubt is now lodged firmly between the shoulder blades and let the online retailer answer those questions. Which shows that you are good at the game that I am talking about; if the buyer thinks that he can only get what he really wants from you, then suddenly the price that he is prepared to pay goes up, because he does not have so many options.
Orpheus Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I suppose what I want to get out in the open is that price is a major consideration when I am purchasing gear, and I think it is for most people, and that is normal and understandable. A good example is my coffee machine. I went along and saw them demonstrated at Di Bartoli. I told them before they demonstrated the machines that I would not necessarily purchase from them, but that if I made a decision, I would ask whether they could match a competitor's price before purchasing. They were happy with that, and spent about 25 minutes demonstrating the various machines. I decided the Bezerra was the machine I wanted, and Winnings were prepared to sell it for significantly less. I rang Di Bartoli and asked whether they could either match it or come close. They said with no rancour that they could not. Later, I needed a gasket. They sold me one, and they also included brochures outlining the services they provide, including their repair centre, their barista courses, and the beans which they supply. They knew I didn't buy from them. But although Winnings put me in touch with people to service the machine, I have had it serviced by Di Bartoli, because they are more personal, and provide a better service. If I need another coffee machine, I am quite likely to buy it from Di Bartoli. From the tone of this column, you would think that I am a ****ty customer. But I think I am a fairly normal customer, and that if there is a reason to do other than pay the cheapest price, I am open to it. I suspect they make much more money out of peripherals than they do from selling cofee machines, anyway.
cableconnoisseur Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 But, Russ, I must admit to being totally P****D off by the rote qualifying questions. I hate shopping for cars, but when I do I try to have a tricky answer to the inevitable "What are you driving now, sir"I think the very best sales people take a far more subtle approach. They seem to effortlessly engage the prospective purchaser in conversation but remain attuned for clues and information that will indicate what the buyer is after and if they are genuine or a tyre-kicker. IMHO the best sales people are very easy-going, personable types who are genuinely knowledgeable and infectiously enthusiastic about the products they are selling and appear to be demoing the item for the sheer fun and enjoyment of doing so. I guess this approach is becoming more and more difficult to maintain in the current retail environment. Another conclusion I've come to over many decades of buying a lot of stuff and selling some is that "playing games" is a waste of everyone's time. Being totally candid just seems to work better for me, even as a seller - nothing can then turn around and bite you. Cheers Tony Yes.......qualify the potential customer as subtly as possible. And knowing when to 'walk away' is another skill lost on most sales persons these days. That way you've covered all bases..............and no time's lost. I'm a firm believer in dealing with genuinely enthusiastic sales people.............and they're easy to spot, no matter where you shop.
brumby Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Of course price is a major consideration in any purchase or sale of anything. Orpheus. A good case could be made that it is the major consideration. But as you stated, it is not the only consideration. If it is, a person walking into a retail outlet is NOT going to buy and the retailer should try and establish that. Time is money. The old saying, especially amongst the purveyors of what are perceived as luxury goods, is that the quality remains long after the price has been forgotten. That is, in fact, a profound truth. I have bought many items from people when I KNEW with absolute certainty that I could have bought the same item for a lower cost elsewhere. And I'm penurious to a fault. The reasons varied, but foremost amongst them was always the reputation of the vendor for after sales service and the fact that the sales person treated the sale as a negotiation, not a contest to see who could come out on top. It used to be easy to do that in Australia because there was nowhere else to obtain the goods. That is no longer the case. The sooner a lot of retailers realise that, the better. But it is a shame that the genuine benefits that a good retail outfit can bring to a transaction are now either unknown or ignored by so many Aussies. BTW, the Winnings you mentioned in your post is a shining example of a GOOD retailer - IMHO. The contrast between Hardly Normal et al could not be more stark.
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