New home theatre - cabling and equipment questions

[verukins]

Background:

Building a new house with a 8x10 basement, part of which will be a home theatre

Im and IT nerd by trade – so I get some bits, but I’ve never really dealt with the audio/video stuff much – so im hoping you guys can sanity check my thoughts. I’ve read bucketloads of articles, but they’re not always helpful!

Sanity Check 1 – cabling:

Below projector screen, there will be a cabinet with a receiver, media centre (TV, DVD and BluRay), PS3, Xbox, Wii (and then future consoles)

Connected to receiver via HDMI where possible (so all but the Wii)

8 power points and 8 network points available, centrally patched. TV signal will be presented over cat6

HDMI run between the wall behind the receiver and where the projector will sit

4 speaker runs between the wall behind the receiver and the rear speakers

Front speakers don’t need to be run behind any walls etc

Anything I’ve missed here that you guys can think of ?

Sanity check 2 – equipment:

This seems to be fairly contentious – everyone has a different opinion and I’m trying to sort through who is just trying to sell me stuff – and which stuff offers good bang for buck.

Im after a 140†fixed screen, 1080p projector, receiver with at least 4 HDMI inputs and some reasonable 7.1 speakers

I was looking at the “Epson EH-TW3600†based on http://www.projectorreviews.com.au/hometheatrereviews.htm - my main question here is – are they promoting a projector which makes them cash – or is the projector actually good ?

I was thinking about getting a 140†fixed screen – any comment here on getting a different type of screen ?

Receiver and speakers – this is where im struggling in particular – so many options! I was expecting the receiver to cost me about $1k – but there appear to be many many options here. Is there any particular features I should be looking for here ? HDMI 1.4a seems to be a given, but outside of that, I spose im struggling to understand which features are important are which less-so.

Any help much appreciated

[Quark]

Your cabling sounds good - you should add some extra conduit with draw strings installed in case anything gets damaged during construction - tradies can be careless.

A 140" screen will be too large for the TW3600 - try the calculator here: www.projectorcentral.com/Epson_Europe-EH-TW3600-projection-calculator-pro.htm

You need to allow some margin, as the lamp will lose ~25% brightness in the first few hundred hours.

The reviews at Projector Reviews are considered reliable. The TW3600 have probably had more faults than average for current projectors.

To light up a 140" screen the best bargain would be the BenQ W6000 for $1996 on a group buy here: www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=94240 The only caution I'd raise about the W6000 is that it's based on DLP tech - some people see "rainbows" when watching fast moving objects on DLP projectors. Later models like the W6000 use a 4X colour wheel, so few people are affected (I noticed it badly on earlier projectors, but own a W6000). There's some GB prices on the TW3600 and 5500 at the same site (these are not public).

Before you buy a receiver, settle on your speakers. Most receivers will safely drive 6+ Ohm speakers, but you'll probably need to spend a lot more to safely drive speakers with a lower impedance. Other features in a receiver would be pre-outs (so you have the option to add a power amp later) and Audyssey (or a similar room correction technology). Ignore the power output figures (these are BS) - look at the power consumption and weight - these are a better indicator (unless you're going with something with class D amplification). Given you're looking at playing DVDs, you'll need a good upscaler - it's cheaper to get these in a blu-ray player than a receiver.

Your receiver should complement your speakers - you don't want a "bright" set of speakers with a "bright" receiver.

For home theatre the centre and sub are the two most important speakers - try to avoid cutting corners with these. I haven't heard them, but Adelaide Speakers have a strong following and some very affordable models.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

Run conduits everywhere.

Also run Cat 6 everywhere - anywhere you are going to put a speaker, 4 to your projector, 4-10 to where your rack is - its cheap and you cant have enough of them.

I know you're on a budget, but if you're serious you'd get an acoustically transparent screen and put your speakers behind it

Thats a very large room, you should have horns or compression drivers in your LCR's at a minimum. DIY econowave would be the ticket, unless you can find a pro speaker cheap/second hand

there is heaps more, but thats probably a starting point - if you can, have your builder put in an isolated frame and ceiling, that will be the main help for soundproofing and you cant change it later easily

As a general rule - get the room right first then worry about gear

[Guest Peter the Greek]

Receivers - refurbed Onkyo's for about $850 on ebay, with warranty, thats the ticket

[Paul Spencer]

Consider a hidden rack of equipment in a ventilated cupboard, with a remote sender and receiver so you can point all your remotes to the screen. All your equipment hidden away and plenty of space for anything you want to add. You don't have to worry about neatness or matching equipment then. The centre speaker has more placement flexibility and "breathing space." And the space in your room is more open and free. You also have the option if you want it, of having 3 exactly matching fronts and you don't have to do a horizontal centre, which is always a compromise.

On the audio front, the really important things are your choice of speakers, room treatment and sub integration. If you have a solid cave-like basement room then you will have some major bass challenges. Bass traps become critical or you end up with a cavernous boomy bass response.

Something to think about:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/07/rfz-what-it-is-and-why-do-you-need-it.html

It's a recent mini article I wrote with some things to keep in mind. It is from a 2 channel perspective, but it can apply quite well to a dedicated HT room.

Are you handy at all? I get the impression that you have the kind of budget that really suggests DIY could be a good idea, if you have the means and inclination. Don't be put off by what you don't know, you don't have to design it (most don't). These days you can pick a design, get the box parts cut CNC, assemble and glue, then paint or veneer it. So that puts DIY within reach of just about anyone who is willing to have a go.

For your speakers, a DIY speaker called the Ewave is a good choice for HT. It's an efficient speaker that can give you the kind of slam you get at the theatre that proves a challenge for more conventional hifi speakers.

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2010/11/introducing-econowave-speaker.html

If you want something more conventional, I have something also on my blog that suits:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2009/08/diy-transmission-line-speakers.html

It is a bit more mellow and laid back in nature, and a nice bonus is that the design is well suited to making matching surrounds. All the info is in there on a separate page. It would not be my choice for HT, I'd go Ewave instead, but many prefer something more familiar.

[magtam]

Sounds like you have most things covered. Some other point to think about, depending on your budget:

- Pre-provision cables for Foxtel and satellite feeds

- Don't forget to add a power point in the ceiling for your projector

- Ensure your have adequate timber supports to mount your projector at its optimum location

- Definitely add a conduit with draw string to your projector. You may want to add accessories like anamorphic lens attachments etc. in the future

- If you ever want to go 10.2 etc, you may want to pre-provision speaker cables now and leave them dormant.

[JA]

Hello V

Re Sanity check 1 - Cabling:

Siting the equipment at the front of the room is good for:

• short main speaker / sub cables and easy speaker cable install (over carpet if you like)
  
• good remote control reception (right in fornt of you) and
  
• perhaps that general feeling of symmetry
  

however, in a darkened home theatre room when you get up to change the disc, make an adjustment etc... you get beautifully sillhouted against the screen so that your visitors see your back and @^$#..... and then to top it all off when you turn around to get back to your favourite chair you get 300 watts beamed through an expensive lens right at you. Inevitably always straight into the eyes.

If you are building a home theatre I would consider a towards the front side or side location for the equipment to avoid this. There is also more room for disc storage and a non-puny sized centre channel speaker. Sure the cable runs are longer- possibly 3 times longer. Use low impedance speaker cable and be happy. If you really would like the remote to fire a the screen you can install a remote repeater/extender RF or Infra red device for your receiver. Your projector should have no problem with receiveing a reflected signal off the screen.

Re Sanity check 2 - Equipment:

I'm not familiar with that particular Epson projector but have seen some of their TW 4000/5000 something models a while ago. Whilst they were excellent, I endeded up preferring a JVC Dila type projector. They have a much higher native contrast ratio which along with 1080p contributes to startlingly sharp images. See if you can have one demonstrated along side the Epson you favour.

A 140 inch screen IS GOOD, but depending on the projector's sharpness, contrast and light output you may wish to also consider 100 or 120 as well.... but no smaller....it's all about BIG and an immersive experience. If you want a fixed flat screen, get a suitably sized piece of white satin finish melamine or better still white satin finish MDF. The only thing it wont have is the important (in non-black rooms) black felt/velvet edge. It wouldn't be hard to fix that either.

Best

JA

Edited July 8, 2011 by JA

[Paul Spencer]

I'll remember that one JA

[ArthurDent]

Consider a hidden rack of equipment in a ventilated cupboard,...

And if you do why not put it near the rear of the room. With full access to the rear of it so you can get to all the connections for all the gear really easily. Nothing worse than trying to wire up shelf/rack mounted gear from the front.

Bigger is better but a 140" screen is half as bright as a 100" screen.

16x9 or Scope. Something else to consider.

[warren2503]

re cabling

I would agree with running cat 6 to most places and especially to TVs and projectors future proof networking - Not Just the AVR and PS3 etc . I have also noticed that there are now HDMI cable that are ethernet HEC compatable http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10m-HDMI-Cable-High-Speed-Ethernet-HEC-1080p-3D-/330566370648?pt=AU_Electronics_Accessories_Wires_Cables&hash=item4cf74a8558. I am not sure if that is marketing Hype or not havent had time to look into it

Additionally I put the power point for my projector in the roof it hides a power plug and surge protector

W

Edited July 8, 2011 by warren2503

[verukins]

geez guys - thanks for all that - there are some good replies in there - but a few of which i dont understand!... so, to start off with the stuff i do understand

1) yes, the cabling will be feature-proofed with cable TV cables, additional cat6 and conduits as required. I am having 8 points run to the area where all the equipment will be located - so i wont be short on points!

2) My rack will be located in different room and will be full of servers and switches for my IT business which i run from home. There will additional room should anything need to be stored centrally for the AV setup

3) Why would i run cat6 to speaker locations? speakers cannot run over cat6 last time i checked? is my knowledge just out of date or wrong?

4) Poweroint in ceiling for projector will be there, along with hdmi and ethernet (just incase)

5) Ethernet over HDMI is not a mature technology yet - im not discounting it - but im running cat6 everywhere - its cheap, standard and flexible. (im also running another 80 points around the rest of the house - for POE phones etc so its a standards thing... cat6 will be valid for a very long time yet.... and i dont see POE over HDMI yet :-) )

6) The white melamine screen comment... are you suggesting that a piece of wood from bunnings is better than a "proper" screen?

7) During the week, i was thinking, what about painting a screen on the wall? The cost difference would be massive.... is the viewing experience a little worse or massively worse? or is there a specific type of paint that makes it viable ?

8) i dont really get the comments about the 6ohm speakers or the "bright" reciever and speaker pearing - can you guys elaborate on this as all ?

9) Didnt know 10.2 was around.... it sounds excessive!

10) on the reciever/speaker stuff.... i spose im looking for some make/model suggestions and some brief technical reasons on why they would be a good fit... as this stuff is a bit over my head at the moment!

Thanks for the replies so far - much appreciated.

[Quark]

1) Good! Have a few power points especially around the front of the room for your sub - you'll need to experiment to find the best place for it.

2) Excellent - have you thought about how you will control the components? Universal remote and IR extender?

3) Pass for me too.

4) This is the priority for running some extra conduit in case your first HDMI cable is faulty or damaged. You'll need to settle on a projector and screen size before determining where it needs to be mounted.

5) Sounds good.

6) With a large screen you'll need a gain > 1 (gain = reflectivity with 1.0 = flat white). This is achievable with specialist screen paints, but by all accounts they're a pain to get right across the whole screen. Also, a good screen will have super dark black velvet surrounds so any overscan is invisible. I'm a fan of quality screens.

7) See above.

8) OK, rather than go into the technical stuff, how much do you want to spend? Then it will be easier to suggest particular options.

9) I'd suggest spending your budget in a smaller number of better speakers. You can always add more later.

10) OK, this comes down to budget.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Quark

[Guest Peter the Greek]

3) you dont know and you cant do it later - cable is cheap. You might need it for active control in the future, some sort of switching....I'd just do it because its cheap

HDMI over cat 6 is great, works very well....but in saying that if you can run a cable, do it, just run cat6 everywhere you can think of

You want a proper screen - dont skimp on this.

I guess all this depends on what you want to achieve - before asking any other question, ask yourself what you expect from the room and go from there

[verukins]

guys - im in the situation where im extending myself financially (maybe over extending) in order to build this house - however, 5 years down the track it will be a different matter (assuming business keeps going ok!)

So - as far as what im expecting..... basically i want something on the cheaper end of the scale to start off with (cheaper - but not complete crap!) and usable - otherwise there is no point in having the room! .... then ability to upgrade it in 5 or so years, when hopefully the finances are a bit better, to something that is in the "upper" quality range.....

[Jake]

Try and keep A and V on different power circuits. I would run 1 circuit to the PJ, 1 to your receiver and other amps, and 1 to your sources.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

If you dont have much coin do the thing you cant change later - soundproofing. Get that right and then add gear as and when you can afford it.....that'd be my approach, but then for me soundproofing is THE most important aspect, following by acoustic treatment, followed by gear

[Quark]

guys - im in the situation where im extending myself financially (maybe over extending) in order to build this house - however, 5 years down the track it will be a different matter (assuming business keeps going ok!)

So - as far as what im expecting..... basically i want something on the cheaper end of the scale to start off with (cheaper - but not complete crap!) and usable - otherwise there is no point in having the room! .... then ability to upgrade it in 5 or so years, when hopefully the finances are a bit better, to something that is in the "upper" quality range.....

For speakers, I think you'd be hard pressed to do better than these secondhand ones at the $2.5K price: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=95028

For a receiver, the Anthem MRX-700 is an option for $2K here: http://www.eastwoodhifi.com.au/specials.html or something like a Denon 3311 locally - you should be able to get one for~$1800 with some bargaining. While I'm an Onkyo/Integra fan, they've had some reliability issues with the current series and early versions of the new series, so I can't recommend at present.

The BenQ W6000 is the only affordable projector I'd recommend for a 140" screen, particularly if you're thinking about projecting on to a wall for a while (gain will be less than a quality screen, so dimmer).

An Oppo BDP93 would be a good blu-ray player - buy direct from Oppo in the US and fit a region free kit yourself or buy locally with the kit fitted (with region free you can buy discs from Amazon US - if you don't have region free, then Amazon UK is usually cheaper than local and is same blu-ray region as Oz).