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It’s a fair question and has been discussed many times in other ways. At 60 for average males and better for females hearing ability is still good enough, with high frequency loss at about 12000-14000

Youth is wasted on the young ?   but yeah, basically this 'Reason why older people spend big is they have accumulated wealth and years of experience to know what to buy. "   Slowe

It's amazing how good our brains are at compensating for ear-related physical hearing loss.  I haven't checked for quite a while now, but at 73 I'm assuming my HF loss comes under the heading of

On 10/12/2020 at 5:11 AM, sktn77a said:

Just a word of caution - if you need hearing aids, forget it.  

 

If I'm hearing you correctly (pun intended), you're saying that once you need hearing aids then your hearing is too far gone? If that's the case, I say get your head out of the sand and listen up.

 

The advancement in hearing aid technology in recent years is astounding. I have very recently been fitted with a pair, and I believe I'm hearing better than I ever have at any time in my adult life. Having been subjected to a lot of live music (up to 5 times per week for several years) and actively involved in motorsports, my ears have copped a caning. The aids sound very life like, and my hearing test with aids is similar to someone in their 20s. Hearing loss in the upper register may not be completely diminished, but of diminished volume to the point of being ineffective. Modern aids can counter this by assisting with the required frequencies only, hence the reference in a previous post about the cup style, shape and size. Also, the idea of basic tone controls as mentioned previously, simply won't cut the mustard. The frequency adjustability is very fine indeed, and must be done by the audiologist at time of fitting, with reference to your hearing test. The aids have multiple programs for things like echo in rooms, specific settings for listening to recorded music, attenuation of own voice, etc. all selectable from an app on your phone. They have multiple mics that allow you to hear directionality, a bird chirping to your upper right rear is easily identified as being where it is. The sound, it's very natural. But, they do come at a hefty price, like anything worthwhile in audiophile terms.

 

Another good place to visit for testing and aids, is Hearing Australia. They are government run, have numerous clinics, and don't apply commissions to sales, so prices are good and they don't push a particular model on to you if there are better options suited to your individual circumstance.

 

Just a final note, everybody, regardless of age, should get regular hearing tests done. Hearing is not like vision, where it is obvious when decline happens, and hearing loss can have dramatic effects on your mental well being. Not only can it cause issues with memory, but also concentration, and depression. It's not something to take lightly. 

Edited by t_mike
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  • 4 months later...

17 hours ago, mrbuzzardstubble said:

 

If only there was a breakthrough treatment for tinnitus.

 

Unfortunately this tinnitus research appears to have issues:

1.   some research authors work for the company selling the patented device for 2,500eur raising concerns of commercial bias

2. there's no placebo arm 

3. wheres the peer review

A sceptic might say the study looks like it was created by chance or by design to produce the right result for commercial success. A better designed trial with a placebo or wait listed control group could  sink the products viability.

 

As usual we need to talk to our GP'S  / registered health professionals for a trust worthy opinion.

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This thread makes me quite sad really.

I already can't hear above 13kHz, curse that Audiotone CD on Tidal, it was better not knowing!

😞😞😞

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Posted (edited)

I downloaded these test tones and through headphones on the PC i can hear 15kHz clearly and at good levels but then they gradually diminish in each tone level one after the other after that. I can hear 17kHz but It's substantially fainter than 15kHz....18Khz and 19kHz are very faint with volume up fairly high and can't hear 20 at all.

 

So drops off sharply after 15kHz for me.

 

https://mdf1.tripod.com/test-tones.html

 

Edit: I'm about to turn 60 very soon.

 

20210509_180447.jpg.0856d76af6c20a41f51856fca00190ed.jpg

Edited by muon*
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16 minutes ago, muon* said:

I downloaded these test tones and through headphones on the PC i can hear 15kHz clearly and at good levels but then they gradually diminish in each tone level one after the other after that. I can hear 17kHz but It's substantially fainter than 15kHz....18Khz and 19kHz are very faint with volume up fairly high and can't hear 20 at all.

 

So drops off sharply after 15kHz for me.

 

https://mdf1.tripod.com/test-tones.html

 

Edit: I'm about to turn 60 very soon.

 

Lucky bastard!! 😀😀😀

Didn't you ever go to rock concerts in ur misspent youth?!

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Just now, tripitaka said:

 

Lucky bastard!! 😀😀😀

Didn't you ever go to rock concerts in ur misspent youth?!

Some but likely could count them on two hands and two feet, and the odd party but not many.

 

I likely did more damage after taking up this hobby in my 40's.

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3 minutes ago, muon* said:

Some but likely could count them on two hands and two feet, and the odd party but not many.

 

I likely did more damage after taking up this hobby in my 40's.

Well ur a lucky fella, I'm younger than you and 14kHz is pretty much silence for me.

 

Still it's no wonder that we all have different hifi sound signature preferences, we are literally listening to different sounds!

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Just now, tripitaka said:

Well ur a lucky fella, I'm younger than you and 14kHz is pretty much silence for me.

 

Still it's no wonder that we all have different hifi sound signature preferences, we are literally listening to different sounds!

True, and there is nothing above 15 anyway, so you are getting most of what there is there still I suspect.

 

Did you use some decent headphones to test?

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I regret doing that testing, now i have a slight very high pitched ringing :lol:

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1 minute ago, muon* said:

I regret doing that testing, now i have a slight very high pitched ringing :lol:

Oh sorry if that was my fault! 😶

 

No I didn't use headphones, I was actually doing some microphone frequency scanning and was in such shock to hear nothing that I just pretended it never happened😀

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Musical instruments fundamentals are mostly under 8,000Hz.  Over 8,,000Hz its mostly just harmonics and theres really only one octave up there. So its a waste of time testing over 10,000Hz.

 

Instrument_Frequency_Chart.jpg

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Just now, Nada said:

Musical instruments fundamentals are mostly under 8,000Hz.  Over 8,,000Hz its mostly just harmonics and theres really only one octave up there. So its a waste of time testing over 10,000Hz.

 

Instrument_Frequency_Chart.jpg

 

I'm going to choose to believe that, thankyou 🙏🙏😀😀😀

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12 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

Oh sorry if that was my fault! 😶

 

No I didn't use headphones, I was actually doing some microphone frequency scanning and was in such shock to hear nothing that I just pretended it never happened😀

I think you may have different results through some good headphones, at a guess.

 

I don't generally use headphones apart from gaming on the PC sometimes, and for these tests.

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Its a good idea for us not to do high frequency tests on speakers so  we don't damage the tweeters.

 

Its an even better idea not to do loud headphone  high frequency tests at all so we don't damage our remaining cilia in the inner ear.

 

It might be worth doing a careful lower volume upper frequency test, if you use computer audio, in order to set a low pass filter and cut out those useless high frequencies you cant hear anyway.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Nada said:

Its a good idea for us not to do high frequency tests on speakers so  we don't damage the tweeters.

 

Its an even better idea not to do loud headphone  high frequency tests at all so we don't damage our remaining cilia in the inner ear.

 

It might be worth doing a careful lower volume upper frequency test, if you use computer audio, in order to set a low pass filter and cut out those useless high frequencies you cant hear anyway.

 

 

 

Keep talkin' bout those useless high frequencies thanks, it's all music to my ears 🙂

 

But seriously, if my speakers are going to be damaged by a test at levels that I can control, then I'm ready to upgrade speakers!!! I buy high-powered amps for a reason hehe

 

 

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It's amazing how good our brains are at compensating for ear-related physical hearing loss. 

I haven't checked for quite a while now, but at 73 I'm assuming my HF loss comes under the heading of "Lots".

 

I still appreciate music and high quality sound, maybe more than ever.

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I'm sorry, i can't hear you over the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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I often wonder if one of those 31 band graphic equalisers used in commercial audio would be of any use. Data from an audiologist's test of you hearing could be used to set and forget the bands, assuming that you could adjust it to correct your hearing to a 20 year old natural balance. The bypass switch could be used when others are around.

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I went to Specsavers the other day and they said I had great hearing...😁

 

I actually have a huge dropout in my hearing in the 165-265Hz area. Apparently that's also the exact pitch my wife speaks at.

 

22 minutes ago, t_mike said:

I often wonder if one of those 31 band graphic equalisers used in commercial audio would be of any use. Data from an audiologist's test of you hearing could be used to set and forget the bands, assuming that you could adjust it to correct your hearing to a 20 year old natural balance. The bypass switch could be used when others are around.

There are/were a number of mixing desk guys who used to work around Melbourne in the 80's, 90's & 00's who used to have very little hearing above mid-range. so the sounds was always horrible and I (and a few others I knew) would end up listening to the band(s) from outside the venue - or at least, the room.

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Right now, my wife is in the sweet spot with a pair of demo hearing aids. Her hearing has gotten pretty bad over the last 6 months or so to the point that she would have the volume up so loud just to watch TV that it would annoy me.

 

She's complaining there's no bass. I've tried putting the hearing aids in my ears and in one ear it's a bit loose so I wouldn't expect much bass, but there doesn't seem to be any in the other ear either.

 

Does anyone have some experience with hearing aids that are good for full range listening? 

 

Edit: she's just taken them out and cranked it up...

Edited by Pim
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16 hours ago, Pim said:

<snip>Does anyone have some experience with hearing aids that are good for full range listening? 

No actual experience, but some thoughts.

If the hearing problems are not frequency dependent then a set of headphones and a headphone amp for her might work. She could still get the 'whole body' sound perception from the speakers as well as the extra volume for the ears.

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On 05/10/2020 at 6:12 PM, parrasaw said:

For all of those who are wondering "what is the state of my hearing at present?", stop wondering, get some testing done, and with luck you too may be pleasantly surprised.

A totally uncontrolled but interesting test is easily done by playing a frequency sweep.

There are plenty of apps that provide such, and you can do it quite slowly. Then you can see for yourself where the drop-off is. IN-room!

My daughter @20 easily hears way above what I hear @40 so it is a real, measurable problem. OTOH, I am loving the sounds my systems make so, functionally, I don't care.

 

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20 hours ago, Pim said:

She's complaining there's no bass. I've tried putting the hearing aids in my ears and in one ear it's a bit loose so I wouldn't expect much bass, but there doesn't seem to be any in the other ear either.

 

Does anyone have some experience with hearing aids that are good for full range listening? 

 

They're likely not amplifying much (or possibly even any) low frequency sounds, assuming a typical age related hearing loss.

 

She's also likely become acclimatised to things sounding a certain way. If she is very new to hearing aids she is going to find the balance of sound is going to be quite different. I suspect it's more to do with that rather than a lack of bass (she's basically eq'ing her ears and the added high frequency can easily be mentally interpreted as being light on low frequencies). She's likely to find she'll acclimatise quickly and it'll start to sound normal again soon.

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4 hours ago, Fangzie said:

 

They're likely not amplifying much (or possibly even any) low frequency sounds, assuming a typical age related hearing loss.

 

She's also likely become acclimatised to things sounding a certain way. If she is very new to hearing aids she is going to find the balance of sound is going to be quite different. I suspect it's more to do with that rather than a lack of bass (she's basically eq'ing her ears and the added high frequency can easily be mentally interpreted as being light on low frequencies). She's likely to find she'll acclimatise quickly and it'll start to sound normal again soon.

Thanks for that info mate.

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@Pimi have basic government funded hearing aids through a private audioligist, he is aware that i have a hifi and i let him know music is a big part of my recreational interest, i presume he has set the hearing aids for 'normal' hearing, very happy with them. Previously, 6yrs ago, i paid $8000 for hearing aids, my audioligist keeps up to date with world wide technology, said these basic ones today will be better than my expensive ones of 6yrs ago, due to improvements in hering aid technology, i have to agree with him

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As now a member of the 'older generation' (I am 68) and having been a Hi-Fi enthusiast all my life, I have discovered that we don't just hear with our ears, which is a great relief to me!  Research carried out in Japan has concluded that ‘inaudible’ high-frequency components do affect the acoustic perception of audible sounds. Researchers used an electroencephalogram (EEG) to measure and record the electrical activity of the brain while people were listening to music that included supersonic frequencies (high frequency components, or HFCs). They were able to measure the increased electrical activity that the HFCs caused when played with the low frequency components. I did a bit of investigation via Google and found that either ultrasonic sound is picked up by the appropriate parts of the inner ear through bone conduction (as the middle ear is not much good at those frequencies) and then transmitted to the brain, or the brain itself is excited (physically, not emotionally 😁) by the ultrasonic sound and sends this information back into the middle ear for processing along with the audible sounds. After all, we have all experienced very low infrasonic frequencies, such as a thump on our chest from a bass drum. It has also been suggested, according to NASA, that the resonant frequency of the eyeball is around 18Hz and our eyeballs can also respond to infrasound. So, whatever mechanisms in the body respond to infrasonic and ultrasonic frequencies, it does seem that these inaudible frequencies influence our enjoyment of music. 

 

So, don't give up on Hi-Fi just because your ears' frequency responses are dropping off!  As has been said before on this forum, the brain is very adaptable and can supplement your enjoyment through other parts of your body!

 

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19 hours ago, Neville Roberts said:

As now a member of the 'older generation' (I am 68) and having been a Hi-Fi enthusiast all my life, I have discovered that we don't just hear with our ears, which is a great relief to me!  Research carried out in Japan has concluded that ‘inaudible’ high-frequency components do affect the acoustic perception of audible sounds. Researchers used an electroencephalogram (EEG) to measure and record the electrical activity of the brain while people were listening to music that included supersonic frequencies (high frequency components, or HFCs). They were able to measure the increased electrical activity that the HFCs caused when played with the low frequency components. I did a bit of investigation via Google and found that either ultrasonic sound is picked up by the appropriate parts of the inner ear through bone conduction (as the middle ear is not much good at those frequencies) and then transmitted to the brain, or the brain itself is excited (physically, not emotionally 😁) by the ultrasonic sound and sends this information back into the middle ear for processing along with the audible sounds. After all, we have all experienced very low infrasonic frequencies, such as a thump on our chest from a bass drum. It has also been suggested, according to NASA, that the resonant frequency of the eyeball is around 18Hz and our eyeballs can also respond to infrasound. So, whatever mechanisms in the body respond to infrasonic and ultrasonic frequencies, it does seem that these inaudible frequencies influence our enjoyment of music. 

 

So, don't give up on Hi-Fi just because your ears' frequency responses are dropping off!  As has been said before on this forum, the brain is very adaptable and can supplement your enjoyment through other parts of your body!

 

 

Research positing we respond to inaudible ultrasound  in a way that aids music listening is highly questionable. Some research looks scientific but is nonsensical. 

 

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On 19/06/2021 at 6:47 PM, Pim said:

Right now, my wife is in the sweet spot with a pair of demo hearing aids. Her hearing has gotten pretty bad over the last 6 months or so to the point that she would have the volume up so loud just to watch TV that it would annoy me.

 

She's complaining there's no bass. I've tried putting the hearing aids in my ears and in one ear it's a bit loose so I wouldn't expect much bass, but there doesn't seem to be any in the other ear either.

 

Does anyone have some experience with hearing aids that are good for full range listening? 

 

Edit: she's just taken them out and cranked it up...

Check how the EQ is set and what program she is running. 

 

If optimised for speech they may be dropping below 300Hz as content less than this can add 'noise' that reduces intelligibility. 

 

Another reason why my wife dislikes full range speakers for TV dialogue, she's deaf with hearing aids. Movie LFE and LF make dialogue harder. 

 

But you won't hear base through them. Most likely her hearing loss is in the mids and highs which are boosted to flatten her hearing out. So if you listen you will just hear the mid and high frequency gain.

 

Often with new hearing aids they can be too good, people with hearing loss get used to losing the mids and highs, flat can sound shrill or no base. Often they need tweaking to slowly get flatter a month at a time until they get used to it all. It's likely she has been listening to all music on the 'club' setting before getting them. 

 

$10k hearing aids 8 years ago are now surpassed by $6k ones now and good until 10kHz or more. My wife with moderate to severe loss can hear the quality drop and lower clarity of $20k Krix powered by Anthem compare to my 4.0 Lenehan driven by Electrocompaniet monoblocks for music and movies. 

 

When she first got them she had about 2 months of surprises with what she could hear. Being deaf since age three there was a whole world of new sounds compared to life with older tech. 

Edited by DrSK
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22 hours ago, wen said:

@Pimi have basic government funded hearing aids through a private audioligist, he is aware that i have a hifi and i let him know music is a big part of my recreational interest, i presume he has set the hearing aids for 'normal' hearing, very happy with them. Previously, 6yrs ago, i paid $8000 for hearing aids, my audioligist keeps up to date with world wide technology, said these basic ones today will be better than my expensive ones of 6yrs ago, due to improvements in hering aid technology, i have to agree with him

could you tell me what brand they are? She hasn't settled on which to buy yet but she was pushed into an 8 grand pair which to me sounds like a very expensive solution for simple amplification of sound.

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11 minutes ago, Pim said:

could you tell me what brand they are? She hasn't settled on which to buy yet but she was pushed into an 8 grand pair which to me sounds like a very expensive solution for simple amplification of sound.

NDIS should cover $6k Phonak which should be plenty. 

 

With these my wife could comment on Krix and Anthem vs Lenehan and Electrocompaniet for clarity and quality. 

 

I love that we can stream to my wife's head from the TV and I don't have to hear her crappy shows. 

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Just now, DrSK said:

NDIS should cover $6k Phonak which should be plenty. 

 

I love that we can stream to my wife's head from the TV and I don't have to hear her crappy shows. 

My wife was borne with Cystic Fibrosis. At 49 she had a lung transplant that went very, very wrong. She had three heart attacks, her kidneys shut down, she had one lung removed in an emergency operation for which she was given a 5 to 10% chance of survival. Her left hand chest is completely ruined by operations trying to find where she was losing blood from. Her new lung collapsed. Her tracheostomy wore through a vain that caused blood to run into her new lung and clot...

 

I've probably missed a few things and all that was just in the first three months post transplant. She's still in a pretty bad shape physically, now 6 years on..

 

She's been knocked back by NDIS 3 times.

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1 hour ago, Pim said:

My wife was borne with Cystic Fibrosis. At 49 she had a lung transplant that went very, very wrong. She had three heart attacks, her kidneys shut down, she had one lung removed in an emergency operation for which she was given a 5 to 10% chance of survival. Her left hand chest is completely ruined by operations trying to find where she was losing blood from. Her new lung collapsed. Her tracheostomy wore through a vain that caused blood to run into her new lung and clot...

 

I've probably missed a few things and all that was just in the first three months post transplant. She's still in a pretty bad shape physically, now 6 years on..

 

She's been knocked back by NDIS 3 times.

 

Very sorry to hear that.

 

NDIS generally crap from my dealings and families we know truing to work with them, random and have no idea how to assess hearing aids (couldn't understand ehy $2k ones where my wife could only understand 50% of speech weren't good enough). It took us 2 years to get the funding for $6k auds after they awarded her $20k but wouldn't let her spend it. Our local Federal MP has a staff or two dedicated full time to helping community with NDIS. He gave them a shake. Pity it is this way. 

 

We pushed to give them $14k of the allocated funding back to them and just get the hearing aids she needed. Didn't want funding for house cleaners and family counciling they kept saying we could have... 

 

 

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@Pim sorry to hear about your wife, i have had dealing with people who work( a joke to use this word) at NDIS, cannot accuratly describe NDIS for fear of being banned from forum. the brand of hearing aids i have is Widex, when i saw a specialist and asked him which are the best, his advice was to research on the net, Widex came up as being the most suitable for what i wanted.

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Just to repeat "I know nothing about hearing aids" ...but I have a set of Phonak IEMs that kick butt for the price. (Unfortunately they are not made any more.) Note that Phonak and Sennheiser headphones are now sister companies.

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12 hours ago, wen said:

@Pim sorry to hear about your wife, i have had dealing with people who work( a joke to use this word) at NDIS, cannot accuratly describe NDIS for fear of being banned from forum. the brand of hearing aids i have is Widex, when i saw a specialist and asked him which are the best, his advice was to research on the net, Widex came up as being the most suitable for what i wanted.

Thanks Wen. Had a look and Widex definitely looks interesting.

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On 26/09/2020 at 10:45 PM, captain starlight said:

Question and debate, it is well known that our hearing diminishes as we grow older, so with that in mind, is our ongoing quest for the perfect and highest quality sound system a waste of time after we reach a specific age - maybe 60 or so?   I mean, at a certain age we loose the ability to discern the higher frequencies (and maybe have a more narrower range of frequencies in our heating spectrum) - so why do older people spend large amounts on very nice equipment, when in fact their older ears may not fully “acknowledge” or appreciate the ability of that equipment?  So should we all stop our searching and upgrading for better equipment after we reach 55-60?

 

is this a fair question? 

 

anyone care to comment?

 

Sure, it's a fair question.

 

It is often drastically overstated how much the presence high frequencies contribute to perception of sound.

 

Don't think that's true?   Listen to music and then add a (linear phase) filter which removes everything above 15khz.... 10khz..... 5khz.

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On 20/06/2021 at 3:18 PM, Fangzie said:

 

They're likely not amplifying much (or possibly even any) low frequency sounds, assuming a typical age related hearing loss.

 

She's also likely become acclimatised to things sounding a certain way. If she is very new to hearing aids she is going to find the balance of sound is going to be quite different. I suspect it's more to do with that rather than a lack of bass (she's basically eq'ing her ears and the added high frequency can easily be mentally interpreted as being light on low frequencies). She's likely to find she'll acclimatise quickly and it'll start to sound normal again soon.

The domes on the aids are critical to the sound that you hear I found. Get a few different ones and give that a try.

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