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Posted

The “correct” weight of oil for your turntable bearing is dictated by the size of the oil gap between the bearing face and the spindle, a thin oil is required for a finely engineered close tolerance bearing so it can maintain a oil film during operation, conversely a larger oil gap requires a heavier oil to operate properly . 

Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, marcusD said:

The Sph bearing only uses a smear of grease on the thrust pad, it is too tight a tolerance between the spindle and bushes to use grease as a rotation lubricant. I use a smear of kluber grease on the pad and lubricate the rotating spindle with my blue oil

Sien’s YouTube instruction has him smearing the spindle with grease. When I get some time I’ll clean my spindle and add some oil. 

 

How much oil did you put in? I'm guessing some of it will drain down and mix with the grease on the pad.

Edited by PKay
Posted
2 hours ago, PKay said:

How much oil did you put in? I'm guessing some of it will drain down and mix with the grease on the pad.

Such a simple question that raises a enough questions to write a book.

What is the purpose of adding oil - do you want to keep the oil and grease separate or are you trying to thin the grease with oil.

Many use oil to thin the grease, Marcus appears to be trying to keep the 2 separate - oil on the sleeve and grease on the thrust pad.

Some oils and greases are compatible many are not. What you use will depend on what you are trying to achieve. You need to understand the properties of both the oil and grease in order to properly implement either solution.

 

A bit of background - 

 

The original 301 used a flat bottom spindle and matching thrust pad.

A lot of folk eg Kokomo said oh I can put a ball in there and get a "better sound".

What these folk do not understand is that the flat bottom spindle and thrust pad actually stabilise the spindle ( remember the spindle bearing tolerances are not great). Put a ball under it and guess what - the spindle falls over.

 

The other reason Garrard used a flat bottom spindle and thrust pad was to spread the load, a point bearing increases the load significantly. That's why I get a 25 minute run down time when I turn the disengage the idler on the original bearing.

 

I have installed a number of aftermarket bearings for friends with Garrards, some quite expensive and guess what - they all wear out - in particular the heavy platters that are gaining popularity ( I won't mention names ) literally create a grinding machine - the bearings are stuffed within 12 months. I have no experience with the SPH bearing.

 

My 301, which is basically a B system for me that I use for background music or playing with my cartridge collection, blew off my old Platine Verdier in my B system by some margin - original bearing and original platter - both machined and blueprinted, but in keeping with the original design. Heavier platters degraded on my 301 the sound - in particular the bass lost coherency and I have stayed with a lightweight modded original platter by choice.

 

The caveat here is that the 401's have stronger motors, and the heavier aftermarket platters work better with the 401 than the 301 in my experience.

 

As always with mods be careful what you wish for and always revisit and check your bearing wear after mods - look for dirty oil/grease for signs of wear after a few months and a year later.

 

  • Like 1
Posted
3 hours ago, PKay said:

Sien’s YouTube instruction

Do you have link to this

Posted
9 minutes ago, e83cc said:

Such a simple question that raises a enough questions to write a book.

What is the purpose of adding oil - do you want to keep the oil and grease separate or are you trying to thin the grease with oil.

Many use oil to thin the grease, Marcus appears to be trying to keep the 2 separate - oil on the sleeve and grease on the thrust pad.

Some oils and greases are compatible many are not. What you use will depend on what you are trying to achieve. You need to understand the properties of both the oil and grease in order to properly implement either solution.

 

A bit of background - 

 

The original 301 used a flat bottom spindle and matching thrust pad.

A lot of folk eg Kokomo said oh I can put a ball in there and get a "better sound".

What these folk do not understand is that the flat bottom spindle and thrust pad actually stabilise the spindle ( remember the spindle bearing tolerances are not great). Put a ball under it and guess what - the spindle falls over.

 

The other reason Garrard used a flat bottom spindle and thrust pad was to spread the load, a point bearing increases the load significantly. That's why I get a 25 minute run down time when I turn the disengage the idler on the original bearing.

 

I have installed a number of aftermarket bearings for friends with Garrards, some quite expensive and guess what - they all wear out - in particular the heavy platters that are gaining popularity ( I won't mention names ) literally create a grinding machine - the bearings are stuffed within 12 months. I have no experience with the SPH bearing.

 

My 301, which is basically a B system for me that I use for background music or playing with my cartridge collection, blew off my old Platine Verdier in my B system by some margin - original bearing and original platter - both machined and blueprinted, but in keeping with the original design. Heavier platters degraded on my 301 the sound - in particular the bass lost coherency and I have stayed with a lightweight modded original platter by choice.

 

The caveat here is that the 401's have stronger motors, and the heavier aftermarket platters work better with the 401 than the 301 in my experience.

 

As always with mods be careful what you wish for and always revisit and check your bearing wear after mods - look for dirty oil/grease for signs of wear after a few months and a year later.

 

Mine is a Lenco GL75 with the standard platter.

Posted
5 minutes ago, PKay said:

PM Sent.

Thanks.

What I glean from the video is that he applies the grease sparingly  to the upper and lower bushes and bottom only. With oil bearings, although they used sintered bushes that hold oil, the bearing well is an oil bath that provides replenishment to the bushes.

The question for Marcus is why does he think the bearing tolerances are too tight for grease, when the designer clearly uses it - does he have a different design ??? from SPH.

I would suggest you clarify with the designer what options and recommendations regards oil/grease etc.

 

 

Posted
29 minutes ago, e83cc said:

With oil bearings, although they used sintered bushes that hold oil, the bearing well is an oil bath that provides replenishment to the bushes.

 

Many bearings were not sintered, and various other means were used, such as  a felt reservoir for the oil at the top, and cut grooves in the bearing that work as an oil pump from the well at the bottom as the platter rotates.

  • Like 1
Posted

@e83cc would you be so kind as to describe the basic arrangement of a 401 as it pertains to spinning.  terms like inverted bearing etc i am unfamiliar with and frankly i have no idea also re: where is grease and where is oil?

 

i have a garrard 401 albeit with a CTC brass spindle and one of these heavy platters you seem a  bit suss on.  it has been great to date though i may have recently inflected harm on it by running it too dry perhaps.  i wonder if i shouldn't haul it out and see if i do have any wear.  but this pertains to my first request as in i wouldn't even know what to look at.

 

 

Posted
2 hours ago, e83cc said:

Such a simple question that raises a enough questions to write a book.

What is the purpose of adding oil - do you want to keep the oil and grease separate or are you trying to thin the grease with oil.

Many use oil to thin the grease, Marcus appears to be trying to keep the 2 separate - oil on the sleeve and grease on the thrust pad.

Some oils and greases are compatible many are not. What you use will depend on what you are trying to achieve. You need to understand the properties of both the oil and grease in order to properly implement either solution.

 

A bit of background - 

 

The original 301 used a flat bottom spindle and matching thrust pad.

A lot of folk eg Kokomo said oh I can put a ball in there and get a "better sound".

What these folk do not understand is that the flat bottom spindle and thrust pad actually stabilise the spindle ( remember the spindle bearing tolerances are not great). Put a ball under it and guess what - the spindle falls over.

 

The other reason Garrard used a flat bottom spindle and thrust pad was to spread the load, a point bearing increases the load significantly. That's why I get a 25 minute run down time when I turn the disengage the idler on the original bearing.

 

I have installed a number of aftermarket bearings for friends with Garrards, some quite expensive and guess what - they all wear out - in particular the heavy platters that are gaining popularity ( I won't mention names ) literally create a grinding machine - the bearings are stuffed within 12 months. I have no experience with the SPH bearing.

 

My 301, which is basically a B system for me that I use for background music or playing with my cartridge collection, blew off my old Platine Verdier in my B system by some margin - original bearing and original platter - both machined and blueprinted, but in keeping with the original design. Heavier platters degraded on my 301 the sound - in particular the bass lost coherency and I have stayed with a lightweight modded original platter by choice.

 

The caveat here is that the 401's have stronger motors, and the heavier aftermarket platters work better with the 401 than the 301 in my experience.

 

As always with mods be careful what you wish for and always revisit and check your bearing wear after mods - look for dirty oil/grease for signs of wear after a few months and a year later.

 

Your platter spins down for 25 minutes from shutdown on a standard bearing with an eddy brake?, I think that may be defying the laws of physics . Please post a video because I would love to see it.

the kluber grease is a base iso22 oil and blends well with appropriate oils 

Posted
2 hours ago, e83cc said:

Thanks.

What I glean from the video is that he applies the grease sparingly  to the upper and lower bushes and bottom only. With oil bearings, although they used sintered bushes that hold oil, the bearing well is an oil bath that provides replenishment to the bushes.

The question for Marcus is why does he think the bearing tolerances are too tight for grease, when the designer clearly uses it - does he have a different design ??? from SPH.

I would suggest you clarify with the designer what options and recommendations regards oil/grease etc.

 

 

I simply use what gives me the best measured results from this bearing in terms of W&F , speed stability and performance, the SPH bearing uses bearing grade plastic for its bushes and they are a tight tolerance fit. The bearing does not have a sump so oil is displaced by the spindle and forced up the side of the spindle where it acts as boundry lubrication

  • 1 month later...
Posted

recent improvements in my 401.  quite significant.

1.  i think my idler wheel holder /wheel might have been put in upside down  (by me) - fixing that was a revelation.

2.  got the vertere mat back out.  hugely reduced noise.  interesting how copper mat is so dead to tap though.  when you tap the platter (bronze) it is like an actual bell.  but with copper mat in, tap on that, dead.  anyway for now a  mat is on as it seemed to be noisy without

3.  sra setup with microscope.  along with checking tonearm mount was flat this yielded extraordinary improvement.

4.  new idler wheel.  

 

i had a CTC idler wheel (which seems to be same as Audio Silente?).  Well the  one i bought off ebay (probably used, wasn't in original packaging or anything) wasn't identified re: brand.  but looking today on internet it seems to be an Artisan Fidelity.  Heavy.  Stainless steel.  Instantly sounded mental stable, high freq extension, bass totally different and cleaner.  I think it has come maybe with an improvised o-ring rather than lathed rubber as it may have originally come..  The difference putting it on was striking.  Especially with higher frequency material.  It is like the resolution has hugely improved.  It was exactly what I was looking for and of course AF idler wheels were 365 USD when u could get them.

 

it is hard to understate how these two significant improvements, one on top of other, have thrilled me.  i have been working on the table trying to improve it as it had bold vigour etc. but was almost cartoonish in its lack of internal detail/atmosphere.

 

a good day to be an audiophile!  Marcus your oil continues to be amazing and well utilised.   so far 2 measurements of W&F since new wheel installed.  both results ludicrous low.  as in "is this thing working" low.

  • Like 2
Posted
4 minutes ago, mr_gray said:

recent improvements in my 401.  quite significant.

1.  i think my idler wheel holder /wheel might have been put in upside down  (by me) - fixing that was a revelation.

2.  got the vertere mat back out.  hugely reduced noise.  interesting how copper mat is so dead to tap though.  when you tap the platter (bronze) it is like an actual bell.  but with copper mat in, tap on that, dead.  anyway for now a  mat is on as it seemed to be noisy without

3.  sra setup with microscope.  along with checking tonearm mount was flat this yielded extraordinary improvement.

4.  new idler wheel.  

 

i had a CTC idler wheel (which seems to be same as Audio Silente?).  Well the  one i bought off ebay (probably used, wasn't in original packaging or anything) wasn't identified re: brand.  but looking today on internet it seems to be an Artisan Fidelity.  Heavy.  Stainless steel.  Instantly sounded mental stable, high freq extension, bass totally different and cleaner.  I think it has come maybe with an improvised o-ring rather than lathed rubber as it may have originally come..  The difference putting it on was striking.  Especially with higher frequency material.  It is like the resolution has hugely improved.  It was exactly what I was looking for and of course AF idler wheels were 365 USD when u could get them.

 

it is hard to understate how these two significant improvements, one on top of other, have thrilled me.  i have been working on the table trying to improve it as it had bold vigour etc. but was almost cartoonish in its lack of internal detail/atmosphere.

 

a good day to be an audiophile!  Marcus your oil continues to be amazing and well utilised.   so far 2 measurements of W&F since new wheel installed.  both results ludicrous low.  as in "is this thing working" low.

Are you using Vertere mat in addition to the copper mat? Or is the Vertere mat better than  the copper mat.

Posted

I’m using the vertere on the copper. I have also used the vertere without cu (and vice versa).  Vertere is cork down. Doesn’t seem to matter with cu mat or not if u use vertere.  I figured might as well employ it for extra mass if nothing else. Given how dead cu mat is versus platter it has to be better with cu. 

  • Like 1
Posted
27 minutes ago, mr_gray said:

I’m using the vertere on the copper. I have also used the vertere without cu (and vice versa).  Vertere is cork down. Doesn’t seem to matter with cu mat or not if u use vertere.  I figured might as well employ it for extra mass if nothing else. Given how dead cu mat is versus platter it has to be better with cu. 

Thanks. I’m curious if there is difference with W&F measurements. 

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