Garrard 401 advice please

[mr_gray]

@marcusD this evening i took the 13kg platter off and the 3 kg copper "mat" because i could hear some sort of grinding noise on the garrard 401 occasionally especially when starting it up from cold.  anyway i didn't think it was the spindle but i thought i'd see about getting some of that red oil you'd sent me into the spindle just for laughs.  

 

well it turned out it was critical lubrication.  as in the spindle desperately needed oil.  i recall now a bit leaked a bit out of it one day when i tried using that height adjustment and backed the screw out too far.  based on what happened next i think the spindle was running a tad dry.

 

for a while i have felt like the vinyl frontend seemed to be in real danger of being equalled by a cambridge streamer and 3k DAC.  i mean vinyl was much better but not in a way that was commensurate with effort or cost.

 

recent leaps and bounds in vinyl have come from VTA adjustment via microscope, using a precision level to level the tonearm mount and today the most extraordinary improvement of all came about by using your red oil @marcusD

 

as soon as i used the oil i could feel that the spindle spun better for it.  it was audibly running quieter.  it seems the noise had been obscuring detail. almost like the music had been simplified somewhat.  anyway normal blah blah about previously heard detail in well known records.  but these have been very exciting changes for me not just because the music is better but also because i'm learning and not just buying gear.  

 

anyway marcus the oil is extremely good i think.  i know some will say i am full of it but it was instantly audible.  i took shaknspin measurements cause it sounded as slick as.  i repeated the measurement 4 times because i thought by doing so i might improve confidence in the numbers.  imgur is not happening right now so i will summarise 

DIN      WRMS   Peak    fhz    W       F

0.002    0.000     0.093   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.002    0.000     0.092   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.002     0.001      0.097   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.003    0.001     0.113      0.018    0.02  0.02

 

 

[marcusD]

3 hours ago, mr_gray said:

@marcusD this evening i took the 13kg platter off and the 3 kg copper "mat" because i could hear some sort of grinding noise on the garrard 401 occasionally especially when starting it up from cold.  anyway i didn't think it was the spindle but i thought i'd see about getting some of that red oil you'd sent me into the spindle just for laughs.  

 

well it turned out it was critical lubrication.  as in the spindle desperately needed oil.  i recall now a bit leaked a bit out of it one day when i tried using that height adjustment and backed the screw out too far.  based on what happened next i think the spindle was running a tad dry.

 

for a while i have felt like the vinyl frontend seemed to be in real danger of being equalled by a cambridge streamer and 3k DAC.  i mean vinyl was much better but not in a way that was commensurate with effort or cost.

 

recent leaps and bounds in vinyl have come from VTA adjustment via microscope, using a precision level to level the tonearm mount and today the most extraordinary improvement of all came about by using your red oil @marcusD

 

as soon as i used the oil i could feel that the spindle spun better for it.  it was audibly running quieter.  it seems the noise had been obscuring detail. almost like the music had been simplified somewhat.  anyway normal blah blah about previously heard detail in well known records.  but these have been very exciting changes for me not just because the music is better but also because i'm learning and not just buying gear.  

 

anyway marcus the oil is extremely good i think.  i know some will say i am full of it but it was instantly audible.  i took shaknspin measurements cause it sounded as slick as.  i repeated the measurement 4 times because i thought by doing so i might improve confidence in the numbers.  imgur is not happening right now so i will summarise 

DIN      WRMS   Peak    fhz    W       F

0.002    0.000     0.093   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.002    0.000     0.092   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.002     0.001      0.097   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.003    0.001     0.113      0.018    0.02  0.02

 

 

Great result 

[PKay]

2 hours ago, marcusD said:

Great result 

Are you using the oil in Sien’s bearing?

[marcusD]

2 hours ago, PKay said:

Are you using the oil in Sien’s bearing?

I have moved one generation forward in oil since the red oil, the new oil is called “ little blue”, because it’s blue.

that’s what I am using in Seins bearing at the moment. The red and the blue have the same viscosity but they both get there by different paths. In some bearings little blue is a big improvement over RED and some not so much.

[marcusD]

10 hours ago, mr_gray said:

@marcusD this evening i took the 13kg platter off and the 3 kg copper "mat" because i could hear some sort of grinding noise on the garrard 401 occasionally especially when starting it up from cold.  anyway i didn't think it was the spindle but i thought i'd see about getting some of that red oil you'd sent me into the spindle just for laughs.  

 

well it turned out it was critical lubrication.  as in the spindle desperately needed oil.  i recall now a bit leaked a bit out of it one day when i tried using that height adjustment and backed the screw out too far.  based on what happened next i think the spindle was running a tad dry.

 

for a while i have felt like the vinyl frontend seemed to be in real danger of being equalled by a cambridge streamer and 3k DAC.  i mean vinyl was much better but not in a way that was commensurate with effort or cost.

 

recent leaps and bounds in vinyl have come from VTA adjustment via microscope, using a precision level to level the tonearm mount and today the most extraordinary improvement of all came about by using your red oil @marcusD

 

as soon as i used the oil i could feel that the spindle spun better for it.  it was audibly running quieter.  it seems the noise had been obscuring detail. almost like the music had been simplified somewhat.  anyway normal blah blah about previously heard detail in well known records.  but these have been very exciting changes for me not just because the music is better but also because i'm learning and not just buying gear.  

 

anyway marcus the oil is extremely good i think.  i know some will say i am full of it but it was instantly audible.  i took shaknspin measurements cause it sounded as slick as.  i repeated the measurement 4 times because i thought by doing so i might improve confidence in the numbers.  imgur is not happening right now so i will summarise 

DIN      WRMS   Peak    fhz    W       F

0.002    0.000     0.093   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.002    0.000     0.092   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.002     0.001      0.097   0.18  0.02  0.02

0.003    0.001     0.113      0.018    0.02  0.02

 

 

Oli’s do sound different, no doubt about it. The red oil should be giving you better bass definition and clean up the midrange by stopping the overhang on mid bass notes.

once you clean up the bottom end it really lifts everything else 

[mr_gray]

that is an extraordinarily good description of exactly what happened.  and also the speaker i am using has a pronounced mid bass anyway (especially with the amp i was trialling) and that may have contributed to how extreme a change it seemed.

[vinyl-62]

3 hours ago, marcusD said:

I have moved one generation forward in oil since the red oil, the new oil is called “ little blue”, because it’s blue.

that’s what I am using in Seins bearing at the moment. The red and the blue have the same viscosity but they both get there by different paths. In some bearings little blue is a big improvement over RED and some not so much.

How does one go about purchasing the blue or red oil?

[PKay]

5 minutes ago, vinyl-62 said:

How does one go about purchasing the blue or red oil?

Great question.  I'm interested as well.  @SPR08Ythis might be of interest with your new SPH bearing.

Edited November 14, 2024 by PKay

[marcusD]

I will get some kooky labels printed in the next couple of weeks and put them in the market.

Chris from AllClear Audio ( cafe latte) will be handling the distribution in Australia 

[crtexcnndrm99]

I’ll have to remember to put my hand up for side as well. Sounds good

[aussievintage]

Red and blue oil ?  - well colour skeptical  

[marcusD]

2 hours ago, aussievintage said:

Red and blue oil ?  - well colour skeptical  

Yup

i get it

but in reality they sound completely different 

[e83cc]

What's the difference - is the blue oil woke.

 

There is no generic best oil for any specific Garrard because the bearing tolerances are all over the place - and very loose.

 

Personally I use Motul V300 Power Racing double ester oil in my modded 301, but my bearing has been reworked and has much closer tolerances than any standard bearing, and most of the aftermarket, which often aren't much better.

[aussievintage]

3 minutes ago, e83cc said:

What's the difference - is the blue oil woke.

 

There is no generic best oil for any specific Garrard because the bearing tolerances are all over the place - and very loose.

 

Personally I use Motul V300 Power Racing double ester oil in my modded 301, but my bearing has been reworked and has much closer tolerances than any standard bearing, and most of the aftermarket, which often aren't much better.

 

I am sticking (no pun intended) with compressor oil.

[e83cc]

8 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I am sticking (no pun intended) with compressor oil.

TT's are no different than cars - good oil, and clean.

Check your oil periodically for contamination and/or bearing wear.

 

[PKay]

35 minutes ago, e83cc said:

What's the difference - is the blue oil woke.

 

There is no generic best oil for any specific Garrard because the bearing tolerances are all over the place - and very loose.

 

Personally I use Motul V300 Power Racing double ester oil in my modded 301, but my bearing has been reworked and has much closer tolerances than any standard bearing, and most of the aftermarket, which often aren't much better.

What viscosity?

[e83cc]

9 minutes ago, PKay said:

What viscosity?

For my Garrard 301 with modded bearing I use either the Motul V300 Power Racing either 5W40 or 10W40.

 

Motul is very slippery and can hold a film of oil between surfaces in a seized motor. It's very very good, highly unctuous.

 

Before I modded the 301, when I purchased it, with the standard bearing, after cleaning the bearing, I ran Motul 10w40 and got a run down time of 25 minutes from 33 to 0 with the brake disabled.

 

The only issue is sealing the bottom bearing plate because the Motul can work its way anything not well sealed.

 

For my reference TT which has a 26kg platter system with inverted bearing - I use 10W40.

 

I have previously used Motul V300 0W30 on some light plattered TT''s with high quality bearings such as my old Roksan.

 

[aussievintage]

31 minutes ago, PKay said:

What viscosity?

 

9 minutes ago, e83cc said:

For my Garrard 301 with modded bearing I use either the Motul V300 Power Racing either 5W40 or 10W40.

 

Motul is very slippery and can hold a film of oil between surfaces in a seized motor. It's very very good, highly unctuous.

 

Before I modded the 301, when I purchased it, with the standard bearing, after cleaning the bearing, I ran Motul 10w40 and got a run down time of 25 minutes from 33 to 0 with the brake disabled.

 

The only issue is sealing the bottom bearing plate because the Motul can work its way anything not well sealed.

 

For my reference TT which has a 26kg platter system with inverted bearing - I use 10W40.

 

I have previously used Motul V300 0W30 on some light plattered TT''s with high quality bearings such as my old Roksan.

 

 

Discussions a while back centred around SAE30 or 40.   Seems right to me

[mr_gray]

with red oil the proof is in the pudding so to speak so drain your bearings and try it out if you dare.  it is a very light oil is my sense of it.

[PKay]

43 minutes ago, mr_gray said:

with red oil the proof is in the pudding so to speak so drain your bearings and try it out if you dare.  it is a very light oil is my sense of it.

waiting for @cafe latteto start selling it.  Although my SPH bearing is a grease bearing.

[e83cc]

I would have thought that whether you run oil or grease will depend on the bearing design and tolerances. From what I understand the SPH bearings are bespoke and not all the same. I would not run oil in a grease bearing and vice versa.

The cynic in me suggests the early Garrard grease bearings simply used grease because the tolerances are so poor and the spindle needs to be packed to take up the slack.

[PKay]

40 minutes ago, e83cc said:

I would have thought that whether you run oil or grease will depend on the bearing design and tolerances. From what I understand the SPH bearings are bespoke and not all the same. I would not run oil in a grease bearing and vice versa.

The cynic in me suggests the early Garrard grease bearings simply used grease because the tolerances are so poor and the spindle needs to be packed to take up the slack.

I think @marcusDis running oil in the SPH bearing so the tolerances should hopefully be okay. I’m guessing that Sien prefers the sound with grease. 

[e83cc]

6 minutes ago, PKay said:

I think @marcusDis running oil in the SPH bearing so the tolerances should hopefully be okay. I’m guessing that Sien prefers the sound with grease. 

It will be interesting.

Sometimes adding drag to a bearing can improve speed stability. The eddy brake in the Garrard does this by forcing the motor to work harder and operate in a zone where it produces more torque. That is also why I think it is a mistake for those with after market power supplies to remove the eddy brake.

The oils and greases do produce slightly different sonic signatures. My preference is for maximum speed and transparency and I tend to prefer very slippery high quality oils as thin as possible but making sure the bearing is well lubricated - always check for wear when changing oil.. 

When I had an audio business some years ago I noticed, having a wide range of customers from all over the world, that culture from different countries/continents can sometimes determine preferences - analogous to say French vs German orchestras.

Another way of looking at it is when you travel the world you encounter a rhythm of life peculiar to each country - and this is often reflected in musical choices.

 

 

 

[marcusD]

56 minutes ago, PKay said:

I think @marcusDis running oil in the SPH bearing so the tolerances should hopefully be okay. I’m guessing that Sien prefers the sound with grease. 

The Sph bearing only uses a smear of grease on the thrust pad, it is too tight a tolerance between the spindle and bushes to use grease as a rotation lubricant. I use a smear of kluber grease on the pad and lubricate the rotating spindle with my blue oil

[marcusD]

1 hour ago, e83cc said:

I would have thought that whether you run oil or grease will depend on the bearing design and tolerances. From what I understand the SPH bearings are bespoke and not all the same. I would not run oil in a grease bearing and vice versa.

The cynic in me suggests the early Garrard grease bearings simply used grease because the tolerances are so poor and the spindle needs to be packed to take up the slack.

Exactly why they used grease, there are a few badly engineered bearings for sale still that are running very heavy oil to mask the sloppy manufacture