Garrard 401 advice please

[marcusD]

2 minutes ago, mr_gray said:

it is here https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/garrard-301-401-shindo-style-brass-platter-with-copper/

 

mat is 296 mm in dia. and 4.5 mm thick and fits neatly into same sized recess carved into top of "shindo" esque platter (shown below).  

 

Didn’t know Ray had made that.

should sound fantastic 

[mr_gray]

i am very impressed with the stuff sold to me thus far.  The advice provided on the webpage is very good i think and i have found it to be accurate.  there aren't too many people in this space right now it seems with artisan fidelity having withdrawn into providing whole turntables only perhaps (and being US based of course and quite bleedingly high end).  i am rather hopeful he will make more idler drive wheels of rubber as that seems to have been a success for those fortunate enough to get one.  

[marcusD]

2 hours ago, mr_gray said:

i am very impressed with the stuff sold to me thus far.  The advice provided on the webpage is very good i think and i have found it to be accurate.  there aren't too many people in this space right now it seems with artisan fidelity having withdrawn into providing whole turntables only perhaps (and being US based of course and quite bleedingly high end).  i am rather hopeful he will make more idler drive wheels of rubber as that seems to have been a success for those fortunate enough to get one.  

I am pretty happy with my audio silente idler wheel, but I have purchased a fair bit of stuff off Ray and he is a lovely person to have a chat with

[mr_gray]

Hi Marcus

I also am very happy with the Audio Silente wheel.  I did think Ray's mainly rubber wheel might be an advance on it so worth a shot.  

 

A key piece of excitement is if the new spindle Ray is sending (brass),  rather than current SMD spindle (steel), makes a measurable difference re: W/F.  The significantly higher weight of the Shindo platter plus copper mat might put a spindle under more pressure than it normally is.

 

It is worth mentioning perhaps too that a side benefit of the CTC brass spindle is that one can adjust VTA via a knob on bottom of spindle.  So reach under table and you can adjust deck height versus and hence VTA.  So this would allow VTA to be adjusted whilst a record is playing which is a bit interesting I think.  I currently have a workflow to adjust VTA on my Kuzma arm but of course it is stop record, adjust VTA, then restart record.  Being able to adjust more readily whilst record plays will be interesting (maybe).

 

 

[marcusD]

18 minutes ago, mr_gray said:

Hi Marcus

I also am very happy with the Audio Silente wheel.  I did think Ray's mainly rubber wheel might be an advance on it so worth a shot.  

 

A key piece of excitement is if the new spindle Ray is sending (brass),  rather than current SMD spindle (steel), makes a measurable difference re: W/F.  The significantly higher weight of the Shindo platter plus copper mat might put a spindle under more pressure than it normally is.

 

It is worth mentioning perhaps too that a side benefit of the CTC brass spindle is that one can adjust VTA via a knob on bottom of spindle.  So reach under table and you can adjust deck height versus and hence VTA.  So this would allow VTA to be adjusted whilst a record is playing which is a bit interesting I think.  I currently have a workflow to adjust VTA on my Kuzma arm but of course it is stop record, adjust VTA, then restart record.  Being able to adjust more readily whilst record plays will be interesting (maybe).

 

 

Ah ok, you are talking about a complete bearing replacement to a ctc brass bearing.

I have bearings in other tables that can adjust platter height but I don’t tend to use it to adjust VTA, I find there is usually a specific platter height that gives the most stable rotation and lowest wow and flutter.

 

[mr_gray]

right.  well that could be of interest too.  if there is one thing i like doing it is taking my measurements.  i should mention though that i don't think VTA adjustment is "so" critical.  by which i mean record to record.  i don't want to come across as some sort of obsessive and put off those just getting interested.

[marcusD]

3 minutes ago, mr_gray said:

right.  well that could be of interest too.  if there is one thing i like doing it is taking my measurements.  i should mention though that i don't think VTA adjustment is "so" critical.  by which i mean record to record.  i don't want to come across as some sort of obsessive and put off those just getting interested.

Steve,

yoo need to get hold of a ShakNspin to get super accurate data, I have one and love it.

i will run a cycle on my 401 tomorrow morning and post the results, here is my commonwealth 12d3

[marcusD]

17 hours ago, mr_gray said:

right.  well that could be of interest too.  if there is one thing i like doing it is taking my measurements.  i should mention though that i don't think VTA adjustment is "so" critical.  by which i mean record to record.  i don't want to come across as some sort of obsessive and put off those just getting interested.

[marcusD]

There you go,

my 401 is in the back of my office at the moment.

the test was run on a cold table from start up, it improves when it’s warm

[mr_gray]

those are very good W/F results i dare say Marcus?  like wow!  i leveled my table last night and got the rpm app w/f down to 0.10% consistently.  have ordered a shaknspin.  will be fascinating to see if the new spindle, new idler wheel make any difference to this.  also be of interest to see what shaknspin has to say about the rpm app numbers. not something i "need" of course.  but i must admit i am very much looking forward to using it.

 

also Marcus so you already use a copper mat?  what other things did you do to your table to get such great numbers out of it?

[marcusD]

2 hours ago, mr_gray said:

those are very good W/F results i dare say Marcus?  like wow!  i leveled my table last night and got the rpm app w/f down to 0.10% consistently.  have ordered a shaknspin.  will be fascinating to see if the new spindle, new idler wheel make any difference to this.  also be of interest to see what shaknspin has to say about the rpm app numbers. not something i "need" of course.  but i must admit i am very much looking forward to using it.

 

also Marcus so you already use a copper mat?  what other things did you do to your table to get such great numbers out of it?

I replace or recharge the sintered motor bearings, I use the absolute best oil.

i have my platters zero balanced to 1200rpm. I get my idler wheels ground to as close to perfect as possible ( 0.02mm runout)and I adjust every part of the table

[marcusD]

2 hours ago, mr_gray said:

those are very good W/F results i dare say Marcus?  like wow!  i leveled my table last night and got the rpm app w/f down to 0.10% consistently.  have ordered a shaknspin.  will be fascinating to see if the new spindle, new idler wheel make any difference to this.  also be of interest to see what shaknspin has to say about the rpm app numbers. not something i "need" of course.  but i must admit i am very much looking forward to using it.

 

also Marcus so you already use a copper mat?  what other things did you do to your table to get such great numbers out of it?

Yes I use copper mats on all my tables , have done for years 

[PKay]

9 minutes ago, marcusD said:

I replace or recharge the sintered motor bearings, I use the absolute best oil.

i have my platters zero balanced to 1200rpm. I get my idler wheels ground to as close to perfect as possible ( 0.02mm runout)and I adjust every part of the table

what oil did you use?

[marcusD]

2 hours ago, mr_gray said:

those are very good W/F results i dare say Marcus?  like wow!  i leveled my table last night and got the rpm app w/f down to 0.10% consistently.  have ordered a shaknspin.  will be fascinating to see if the new spindle, new idler wheel make any difference to this.  also be of interest to see what shaknspin has to say about the rpm app numbers. not something i "need" of course.  but i must admit i am very much looking forward to using it.

 

also Marcus so you already use a copper mat?  what other things did you do to your table to get such great numbers out of it?

How many years ago was your 401 rebuilt and did they replace everything?

[mr_gray]

i don't know.  a chapdown in SA did it and then he sold it to a fellow who is on gumtree (St Hallets Cove) and that's where i got it in about 2018 or so.  when i got it - it was all clean looking, in a new plinth, with new SMD platter and new SMD spindle and audio silente idler wheel.  apparently the guy who did has done more than one.

 

anyway no idea if he did a deep dive on motor or not.  it makes sense he would but honestly who knows.  of course i left it sitting for 5 years too.

 

 

[marcusD]

1 minute ago, PKay said:

what oil did you use?

It’s a 5 weight  ( single weight)full synthetic with a blended friction modifier.

performs as a five weight at 100c (motor) and as a 20 weight at 40c ( bearing).

3 in 1 oil builds a varnish on the sintered bronze and stops them wicking oil.

automotive oils have the wrong additive package and are generally too thick.

i had the oil made for me and have been testing it for the last few months, I am happy with it and just placed a large order a couple of weeks ago, by the time it’s made and shipped to NZit will be around September/ October 

[PKay]

1 minute ago, marcusD said:

It’s a 5 weight  ( single weight)full synthetic with a blended friction modifier.

performs as a five weight at 100c (motor) and as a 20 weight at 40c ( bearing).

3 in 1 oil builds a varnish on the sintered bronze and stops them wicking oil.

automotive oils have the wrong additive package and are generally too thick.

i had the oil made for me and have been testing it for the last few months, I am happy with it and just placed a large order a couple of weeks ago, by the time it’s made and shipped to NZit will be around September/ October 

What is the closest commercially available oil?

[marcusD]

7 minutes ago, mr_gray said:

i don't know.  a chapdown in SA did it and then he sold it to a fellow who is on gumtree (St Hallets Cove) and that's where i got it in about 2018 or so.  when i got it - it was all clean looking, in a new plinth, with new SMD platter and new SMD spindle and audio silente idler wheel.  apparently the guy who did has done more than one.

 

anyway no idea if he did a deep dive on motor or not.  it makes sense he would but honestly who knows.  of course i left it sitting for 5 years too.

 

 

Best advice I can give you is make a modest investment and get the CTC rebuild kit and a new eddy disc, and give your deck a birthday.

The bearing and platter you have is more than good enough 

[marcusD]

1 minute ago, PKay said:

What is the closest commercially available oil?

Amsoil 0-16w was the best I could find with a shot of zx1 friction modifier added.

i went down the oil rabbit hole because of my commonwealth, I tried the oil in one of my commonwealth bearings I was having trouble with, using the amsoil the best spin down from 78rpm I could get was 50 seconds, using the new sample I got 2 minutes 40 seconds. Almost fell off my chair 

[marcusD]

11 minutes ago, PKay said:

What is the closest commercially available oil?

I have some sample 30ml packaging arriving in the next 10 days or so,

I will decant 30 mls off and send you (and you @mr_gray) a unlabelled sample for evaluation and feedback 

[mr_gray]

marcus it would be so great to try out this oil.  i will send you money for post.  let me know.

 

you recommend i get the CTC rebuild kit.  i appreciate that advice.  i did already change the braking wheel for the CTC one piece.  i was shocked at what a difference that made!

 

the table sounds fantastic right now.  i am looking forward to getting the shaknspin on it and also installing new brass spindle which Ray of CTC seems to be very proud of.

 

we will also see if Ray has managed to have new rubber idler wheels made.

 

 

[marcusD]

13 minutes ago, mr_gray said:

marcus it would be so great to try out this oil.  i will send you money for post.  let me know.

 

you recommend i get the CTC rebuild kit.  i appreciate that advice.  i did already change the braking wheel for the CTC one piece.  i was shocked at what a difference that made!

 

the table sounds fantastic right now.  i am looking forward to getting the shaknspin on it and also installing new brass spindle which Ray of CTC seems to be very proud of.

 

we will also see if Ray has managed to have new rubber idler wheels made.

 

 

The audio silente wheel is pretty good and unless it isn’t round it won’t affect your performance, the idler wheel bushes on the other hand can cause problems.

also the rubber grommets that attach the idler wheel mechanism to the frame are a common fail point.

when you get your shaknspin it will be a lot easier to diagnose a weak spot ( if you have one).

I promise you will love the shaknspin, you can make tiny adjustments and then test the table instantly. Best audio test equipment ever 

[mr_gray]

ok the ShaknSpin is wonderful.  it is somehow fun to use.  i ended up getting all of my tables out for a spin so i could measure them.  i did this for the RPM app too for comparison's sake.

 

RPM app is good for spin accuracy but terrible for wow and flutter.  

 

shaknspin is just a very good "thing".  tactile, didactic and reliable (comes with a thing to help calibrate it).

 

with my 401 i had a dead on run for speed but wow and flutter is 0.04/0.02.  it is the w/f that i find really interesting.  even the frequencies predominating that it is pointing out.  fascinating to be able to see the long dog audio PSU doing its work with speed precision.  also even seeing how the table performance changes as it warms up or when there is less traffic even (live on busy road).

 

anyway i measured a garrard 401, technics 1210gr and an AUdio Note tt3.  the garrard 401 was the only one where i had to change speed to get 33.3.  the others just did it.  which is quite nice.  the tt3 is a little over the odds but consistently so and stylus drag is rated at 0.06 rpm so 33.39 is what you what by that logic.  RPM app gave me same speed as shaknspin (0.01 rpm less  consistently but very low discrepancy if any).

 

for W/F though the Technics 1210gr murdered with 0.02/0.02 (and speed dead on even though it had been sitting on a shelf for 18 months).

then the 401 with 0.04/0.02

then the TT3 with 0.12/0.03  

 

the technics had the tightest hold on speed, with 401 just behind and then the tt3.

 

far and away the technics was the worst to listen to (i didn't listen now with same everything, i am just remembering).  sounded like constrained digital even with various mods to the table (PSU, silicon bath etc).  it was glorious at the time (clarity) but it never really sung.  so what these numbers mean is perhaps not very clear.  

 

i do know when the 401 got a PSU upgrade and better speed stability, the stereo image got solid and less changeable.  

 

on the other hand there is no doubt the garrard 401 has lost charm as i have upgraded this and that.  the sound is very impressive in its clarity i daresay.  but once you install the PSU - alot of the romance that comes from the pitchy motor - is gone.

 

the tt3 has the worst numbers (except speed i dare say - in fact i think the tt3 is nicely poised in regards to averaging a little over the odds).  but the sound is extremely charismatic.  punchy and driving.  on a spectrum of entertainment i would put the technics last and the tt3 first.  well maybe the 401 and the tt3.  i like them both very much.  with the 401 i now have a very high mass platter with an idler wheel and great bearing and high end PSU and of course my choice of tonearm which i value.  

 

i think i might get out an old record and try recording the w/f and speed when the stylus drag is in effect.  this is of interest to me.  also keen to see if the new spindle from CTC (in brass) makes any positive change to the 401 W/F numbers of 0.04/0.02 which are quite frankly astonishing good i think? i should properly level the table.  i am sure i can do better.

[marcusD]

2 hours ago, mr_gray said:

ok the ShaknSpin is wonderful.  it is somehow fun to use.  i ended up getting all of my tables out for a spin so i could measure them.  i did this for the RPM app too for comparison's sake.

 

RPM app is good for spin accuracy but terrible for wow and flutter.  

 

shaknspin is just a very good "thing".  tactile, didactic and reliable (comes with a thing to help calibrate it).

 

with my 401 i had a dead on run for speed but wow and flutter is 0.04/0.02.  it is the w/f that i find really interesting.  even the frequencies predominating that it is pointing out.  fascinating to be able to see the long dog audio PSU doing its work with speed precision.  also even seeing how the table performance changes as it warms up or when there is less traffic even (live on busy road).

 

anyway i measured a garrard 401, technics 1210gr and an AUdio Note tt3.  the garrard 401 was the only one where i had to change speed to get 33.3.  the others just did it.  which is quite nice.  the tt3 is a little over the odds but consistently so and stylus drag is rated at 0.06 rpm so 33.39 is what you what by that logic.  RPM app gave me same speed as shaknspin (0.01 rpm less  consistently but very low discrepancy if any).

 

for W/F though the Technics 1210gr murdered with 0.02/0.02 (and speed dead on even though it had been sitting on a shelf for 18 months).

then the 401 with 0.04/0.02

then the TT3 with 0.12/0.03  

 

the technics had the tightest hold on speed, with 401 just behind and then the tt3.

 

far and away the technics was the worst to listen to (i didn't listen now with same everything, i am just remembering).  sounded like constrained digital even with various mods to the table (PSU, silicon bath etc).  it was glorious at the time (clarity) but it never really sung.  so what these numbers mean is perhaps not very clear.  

 

i do know when the 401 got a PSU upgrade and better speed stability, the stereo image got solid and less changeable.  

 

on the other hand there is no doubt the garrard 401 has lost charm as i have upgraded this and that.  the sound is very impressive in its clarity i daresay.  but once you install the PSU - alot of the romance that comes from the pitchy motor - is gone.

 

the tt3 has the worst numbers (except speed i dare say - in fact i think the tt3 is nicely poised in regards to averaging a little over the odds).  but the sound is extremely charismatic.  punchy and driving.  on a spectrum of entertainment i would put the technics last and the tt3 first.  well maybe the 401 and the tt3.  i like them both very much.  with the 401 i now have a very high mass platter with an idler wheel and great bearing and high end PSU and of course my choice of tonearm which i value.  

 

i think i might get out an old record and try recording the w/f and speed when the stylus drag is in effect.  this is of interest to me.  also keen to see if the new spindle from CTC (in brass) makes any positive change to the 401 W/F numbers of 0.04/0.02 which are quite frankly astonishing good i think? i should properly level the table.  i am sure i can do better.

That makes a lot more sense, 0.02 seems to be the lowest possible number and I have never been able to drop below 0.02 wow or flutter.

interestingly the number most quoted by manufacturers ( in the modern era) is W&F RMS (which shaknspin measures), I presume the AudioNote is a belt drive.

[mr_gray]

yes Audio Note TT3 is 3 motor belt drive. 

 

ah i was wondering what people "use" when they speak of W&F. 

 

I saw a chap had written "The defacto "wanted to have" Hi-Fi standard back in the day was 0.05% WRMS or better. "  So it seems WRMS or weighted Root Mean Square

 

So for W&F WRMS and RMS for 401 i measured

401 - 0.006/0.02

 

ShaknASpin doesn't say but i presume these might be 0.006% for WRMS?  Seems very low.