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Posted

@65eclipse      I was comparing the Artisan Fidelity copper platter against the Micro Seiki cu180 copper/gun metal platter on my Technics SP10 mk3.

 

  both are light years ahead of the Technics rubber mat.    

 

  The Artisan Fidelity has a lovely richness on top of the transparency , bass control and neutrality it adds to the music.

 

  The Micro Seiki cu180 is similar with a little more detail/transparency over the AF.

 

  both wonderful improvements to any DD table - can't comment about the Garrards, but Artisan Fidelity use their copper platter on all their high end Garrards, so they must be good.

 

  cheers.

  • Like 1

Posted
On 21/09/2020 at 3:37 PM, Tax said:

I wonder whether building a separate base plate out of wood may work where I can either use spikes or polymers depending on whether I need to couple or decouple?  Interestingly some of the internals of the Artisan plinths look like they may have some small voids in between the layers of stacked wood.  In another photo you can see that they also use rubber bushings under the top plate but I think that plinth may not be for a Garrard. So it may be that they have spots where they couple and decouple.

 

Do you happen to use the original mounting rods or longer ones? I am considering getting some from SMD in the UK where they are 90 -100mm long so that way the voids for the mounting rods can be small for at least the top 80mm of the plinth.

Hi Tax, this is a great thread with many interesting contributions. Sorry I took so long to get back to this thread to answer your query's.

 

A good rule of thumb to determine whether you need coupling or de-coupling under the Plinth is to play some dynamic music with lots of bass energy, at a level you consider loud-ish, and put your fingers lightly  on the position/rack where the Table is to reside. If you can feel anything thru your fingers, and I do mean anything because your cartridge is going to be a thousand times more sensitive than your fingers, then you probably should go with de-coupling and find feet that are compliant to prevent the vibration entering the Table Body and showing up at the Cartridge. You can build a Base Plate that the Table sits on and couple the Table to it via Spikes or similar, then experiment with various compliant feet under that. By coupling to the Base you get some extra inertia in the "Sprung Mass" to keep it a bit more stable. In this arrangement the Base material will change the sound as well as it becomes a part of the Resonant Mass. Experimenters seem to get good results with Bamboo in this location. Me, I'd leave the Base Plate till later and do a raft of testing with different feet on the Plinth itself, and get the best result you can before going to a Base Plate trial.

 

Back to your finger test, if there is no vibration felt in your fingers then you may consider going the coupling route because you are now want to lock the Table to something that is stable and will help the Table resist moving with the music. Use the Spikes/Ceramic Balls or any number of types of rigid coupling Feet to achieve this.  

 

Regarding the original Studs that hold the Garrard to the Plinth, I simply use the originals, only one has to be machined shorter for clearance on my Tables. If you can find 1/4" BSF Threaded Steel Rod you can make your own extended mounting rods, rather than importing them, but this rod would be pretty rare here in Oz. The neatest job would be to settle on a Recess depth with your Plinth maker, set the length, then get them screw cut on a lathe. I'd use 1/4" BSF on the Garrard ends, and M6 Metric on the other end to allow a good choice of Flange Headed Whiz Nuts in the Recesses. These Nuts are freely available here.

 

Cheers, Mark.

Posted (edited)
On 22/09/2020 at 6:16 PM, 65eclipse said:

Hi Tax,

Enjoying the thread,

Could you please give me your opinion on the difference between the herbies and Gai 3s ?

 

Just for the record, I manufactured a few platters for 301"s and 401's a couple of years ago out of 6061 Ally and just the billets cost $125.00 each.

 

IMG_0557.jpg

 

Hi 65eclipse,

 

The platter looks fantastic!

 

I seem to have ended up with many types of feet over the years. Some Herbies, some Marigo Audio, some spikes and the latest additions (based on the advice in this thread from @NeilNZ and @TD19) the Isoacoustic Gaia 111's which arrived today.

 

The Herbies came in a number of guises. Soft cubes of elasto polymer (Tender foot) that absorb. Gabon Ebony wood blocs that can tighten up the sound, a harder elastomer compound cup  (Iso-cup) with either Gabon ebony or bronze balls so you could tune the sound. The Marigo had a tweak for the Well Tempered Classic TT (which I had a decade ago) and they are the PMO (Delrin) white pucks you can see in the photo with with a screw in insert that is spiked on one end and rounded on the other and has the blue absorber dots. 

 

I have not tried the Herbies or the Gaia's under the 401 as I have not got the plinth made up yet. I am using the Herbies under the existing feet of a Luxman PD370 and that is providing good isolation as that TT is just set up on a side table in the lounge.

 

Having seen the Isoacosutic Gaia's at close range I can see that the designer has gone for absorbtion at the bottom vs rigid coupling at the top so I am inclined to think that this would be a good combination albeit more expensive than the Herbies tenderfeet at USD $13.99 per foot https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/component-isolation/products/tenderfoot

 

The Gaia iii's are on sale at $295 AUD for a set of 4 at SNA sponsor Selby's in Melbourne where I bought mine.

 

 

 

IMG_1159.jpg

IMG_1012.jpg

Edited by Tax
  • Like 1

Posted
On 22/09/2020 at 6:43 PM, metal beat said:

@65eclipse      I was comparing the Artisan Fidelity copper platter against the Micro Seiki cu180 copper/gun metal platter on my Technics SP10 mk3.

 

  both are light years ahead of the Technics rubber mat.    

 

  The Artisan Fidelity has a lovely richness on top of the transparency , bass control and neutrality it adds to the music.

 

  The Micro Seiki cu180 is similar with a little more detail/transparency over the AF.

 

  both wonderful improvements to any DD table - can't comment about the Garrards, but Artisan Fidelity use their copper platter on all their high end Garrards, so they must be good.

 

  cheers.

Good to know @metal beat. Thanks for describing the differences.

 

I ended up managing to source one of these Oyaide platter mats to try as I quite liked this look on the Garrad.

 

Hopefully it should arrive tomorrow or Monday.....come on Mr Postman ?

 

possible shape.jpg

MJ_12_1280_960.jpg

Posted
13 minutes ago, Tax said:

Good to know @metal beat. Thanks for describing the differences.

 

I ended up managing to source one of these Oyaide platter mats to try as I quite liked this look on the Garrad.

 

Hopefully it should arrive tomorrow or Monday.....come on Mr Postman ?

 

possible shape.jpg

MJ_12_1280_960.jpg

 

Good stuff Tax, it will be an improvement over the stock mat.     I demoed one of those a few years back.

Posted

-Try a mix of materials such as steel plate and timber even different timber species (avoid mdf) for the plinth

-try using outrigger for the arm (minimise vibration transmission fr the plinth)

-try using coins (the old copper) to decouple the arm board and/or the TT.

 

Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ian McP said:

A fun read!

 

Appreciating Oxymorons: The Peculiar Case of the Garrard 301 Turntable
 

Thanks!

 

Yes, an interesting read with some truth.

 

Is an AF or Shindo sonically and aesthetically worth $25k hardearned??.. most probably not.
 

If I was a property developer, investment banker, surgeon, drug peddler, scammer or trust fund kid or crown prince..a mug or someone enjoying my retirement and not wanting to leave the next of kin a windfall...why not?


Most days I feel like I took a nap and woke up to a whole new world where There has to be more than 5 digits in the price tag.

 

My story as to why this Garrard project... I started with professional gig equipment as an 18 yo dj (still paying with a bad back from pre OH&S days from carrying around the biggest badass Peavey, EV, JBL towers to and from gigs) to run of the mill domestic hifi to trying bespoke valves and horn speakers to monster 4 arm TT's to being underwhelmed hy the suspended Thorens, playing the Japanese DD route, bummed by missing out on a Commonwealth 16 and finally saying lets see what all the Garrard hype is about.

 

A believer that you will never never know if you never never go... so rather than die wondering I am going to give it a try ?

Edited by Tax
Typo
  • Like 2

Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Shark said:

Hi Telecine, nice find. Last time I looked for BSF Allthread in Oz it was "get it from the UK or get something else."

 

Cheers,

@Telecine

 

Yes, thanks! Good to know.

 

Unfortunately I had already contacted Shaun at Peak HiFi and ordered the 110 mm bolts.

 

Hopefully the next sna member doing a Garrard plinth will benefit from being able to source it locally.

Edited by Tax
  • Like 1
Posted
6 hours ago, denimhunter said:

-Try a mix of materials such as steel plate and timber even different timber species (avoid mdf) for the plinth

-try using outrigger for the arm (minimise vibration transmission fr the plinth)

-try using coins (the old copper) to decouple the arm board and/or the TT.

 

Thanks Denimhunter!


Yes, using different types of timbers and metal alloys.

 

Current thinking and exploration is around a metal alloy tonearm pillar embedded in the wooden plinth. There will be a metal alloy armboard bolted onto the pillar.

 

Actually mimicking my Micro Seiki. Those designers were ahead of their time nearly 50 years ago.

 

Hoping to visit a machinist tomorrow with my current MS armboards to explore replicability and cost.

 

Hoping that we can manage to strike a happy medium on fabrication costs as the bare bones of a Garrard is somewhat cheap compared to the cost of refurbishment and improvements. Nothing like having to spend a $hitload to enhance and preserve vintage gear.... waaahhh

Posted
On 23/09/2020 at 9:59 PM, Shark said:

Hi Tax, this is a great thread with many interesting contributions. Sorry I took so long to get back to this thread to answer your query's.

 

A good rule of thumb to determine whether you need coupling or de-coupling under the Plinth is to play some dynamic music with lots of bass energy, at a level you consider loud-ish, and put your fingers lightly  on the position/rack where the Table is to reside. If you can feel anything thru your fingers, and I do mean anything because your cartridge is going to be a thousand times more sensitive than your fingers, then you probably should go with de-coupling and find feet that are compliant to prevent the vibration entering the Table Body and showing up at the Cartridge. You can build a Base Plate that the Table sits on and couple the Table to it via Spikes or similar, then experiment with various compliant feet under that. By coupling to the Base you get some extra inertia in the "Sprung Mass" to keep it a bit more stable. In this arrangement the Base material will change the sound as well as it becomes a part of the Resonant Mass. Experimenters seem to get good results with Bamboo in this location. Me, I'd leave the Base Plate till later and do a raft of testing with different feet on the Plinth itself, and get the best result you can before going to a Base Plate trial.

 

Back to your finger test, if there is no vibration felt in your fingers then you may consider going the coupling route because you are now want to lock the Table to something that is stable and will help the Table resist moving with the music. Use the Spikes/Ceramic Balls or any number of types of rigid coupling Feet to achieve this.  

 

Regarding the original Studs that hold the Garrard to the Plinth, I simply use the originals, only one has to be machined shorter for clearance on my Tables. If you can find 1/4" BSF Threaded Steel Rod you can make your own extended mounting rods, rather than importing them, but this rod would be pretty rare here in Oz. The neatest job would be to settle on a Recess depth with your Plinth maker, set the length, then get them screw cut on a lathe. I'd use 1/4" BSF on the Garrard ends, and M6 Metric on the other end to allow a good choice of Flange Headed Whiz Nuts in the Recesses. These Nuts are freely available here.

 

Cheers, Mark.

Thanks Mark!

 

Yes, many good Garrard related advice forming here that I was wondering whether @Marc should review and consider feasibility of a dedicated Garrard subsection in Vinyl and Turntables.
 

I will follow your advice on the "feel test" once I have the plinth and tonearm set up. Will start off with the Isoacoustic footers and adjust coupling vs isolation from there.
 

I have ordered the longer mounting bolts from Peak HiFi in the UK. Unfortunately I did not see Tele's post about the local source before I placed the order.

 

Cheers

 

Posted (edited)
On 22/09/2020 at 7:19 PM, crtexcnndrm99 said:

Does anyone in Oz still manufacture platters? Surely there’s be some interest..

My brother in law is a very talented Toolmaker with his own engineering business in Melbourne.  I once showed him a copper aftermarket platter for a Garrard and it’s asking price, and he had an almighty giggle.

If anyone has a CAD drawing for one, I reckon we could convince him to make a bunch of them at a fraction of the asking costs from overseas manufacturers......

I’ve got a 401 yet to be set up, so I’m certainly interested.....

Post Covid lockdown, I want to make a 12” tonearm with him as well....

Edited by Mat-with-one-t
  • Like 5

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Mat-with-one-t said:

My brother in law is a very talented Toolmaker with his own engineering business in Melbourne.  I once showed him a copper aftermarket platter for a Garrard and it’s asking price, and he had an almighty giggle.

If anyone has a CAD drawing for one, I reckon we could convince him to make a bunch of them at a fraction of the asking costs from overseas manufacturers......

I’ve got a 401 yet to be set up, so I’m certainly interested.....

Post Covid lockdown, I want to make a 12” tonearm with him as well....

Legend. I’d be in for a platter or platter mat. 
 

Will have to go digging for some CAD designs.

Edited by crtexcnndrm99
Posted
9 hours ago, crtexcnndrm99 said:

Legend. I’d be in for a platter or platter mat. 
 

Will have to go digging for some CAD designs.

yeah if anyone has proper CAD designs, spec's on best material, weight, bushings, whatever - let me know.  economy of scale.  He'll do anything one-off but that's always at a premium......

  • Like 1
Posted

Oyaide mat arrived.

 

Is it too much bling or does it give the Garrard a more contemporary look?

CBA16881-085D-4684-B74E-CE865A3A971D.jpeg

  • Like 3
Posted
3 hours ago, Tax said:

Oyaide mat arrived.

 

Is it too much bling or does it give the Garrard a more contemporary look?

CBA16881-085D-4684-B74E-CE865A3A971D.jpeg


It makes it unique ??

  • Like 1

Posted

I have replacement control panel faceplates .... replacement is the top one, above an original faceplate:

 

IMG_5705.thumb.JPG.2448baacbfd4110a0e53d0a6dd44d57b.JPG

  • Like 1
Posted
14 hours ago, Soundscape said:

I reckon if you can get the same finish on the control knobs then it's a winner ?

You have given me something to think about ? hmmm

  • Like 1
Posted
5 hours ago, TD19 said:

I have replacement control panel faceplates .... replacement is the top one, above an original faceplate:

 

IMG_5705.thumb.JPG.2448baacbfd4110a0e53d0a6dd44d57b.JPG

Hi TD19,

 

Do you mean you have one for sale or did you replace yours?

 

I have been thinking of whether I should get just the insert sticker or this whole chrome plate https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/garrard-401-chromed-control-panel-with-insert/


Also the full chrome knobs or just the inserts for the knobs?

 

What did you do?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, TD19 said:

I have replacement control panel faceplates .... replacement is the top one, above an original faceplate:

 

IMG_5705.thumb.JPG.2448baacbfd4110a0e53d0a6dd44d57b.JPG

 

18 hours ago, Soundscape said:

I reckon if you can get the same finish on the control knobs then it's a winner ?

I succumbed this afternoon and bought these

https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/garrard-401-new-chrome-control-knobs-set-of-3/

 

 

and this

 

https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/garrard-401-face-plates/

 

 

 

Edited by Tax
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