Garrard 401 advice please

[Tax]

I would appreciate some advice from members who have owned or currently own the Garrard 401.

 

1) Does the original idler wheel need upgrading? The one in my unit looks good and does not shown any wear when I run my finger around it.

 

When I powered it up, it ran smoothly at the speeds and speed was spot on when measured with my Allnic strobescope.

 

2) Are there significant gains (if any) by upgrading to an after market idler wheel such as Audio Silente or others?

 

This TT is in such good original condition that I am loath to do any unwarranted modifications.

 

3) Are there any recommendations for feet for the plinth? 

4) Not sure whether it is worth the investment from something like still points. Is there anyone using them on a Garrard?

 

Thanks

Edited September 17, 2020 by Tax

[aussievintage]

I love idler turntables, and my main tables are both idlers.  I have  Rek-o-kut B-16, CEC FR-250 , and Garrard 4Hf tables (plus some smaller idlers).  So while I don't have a 401, the idler on it is very similar in my Garrard 4Hf.

 

The idler in these big Garrards is large and very well made.   Gains from upgrading an original (in good condition) would be small IMO.  If the one I had was getting old and hard, then, yes, maybe upgrade instead of just replacing.  However, from your description yours is in good condition, so I would save the money.

 

You don't say what plinth you have.  Big idlers benefit from large massive plinths.    You need appropriate large, strong feet.  I have my large plinth on rubber vibration absorbing  pads, sitting on a wooden platform that has an absorbing layer under that.  Sort of a 2-stage thing.  Experiment with different materials.  Bunnings is a good source, for example the rubber squares that they use under airconditioners and washing machines, and also the foam/rubber things for under furniture legs.  You don't have to spend a fortune and it's fun to experiment.   I have even used a layer of polystyrene foam under mine.

[Grumpy]

G'day Tax. Your wheel does look to have some kind of marking or wear on it, but If the speed is already fine, I woudn't bother with the idler wheel upgrade yet unless you want to. (I was thinking of doing the wheel upgrade also, but I am happy with the way things are, for now, maybe I wil upgrade the wheel in the future,)

I recentley changed the thrust pad bearing on my 401 which gave me better speed stability and to my old ears a cleaner more detailed sound.

The feet I use are spikes onto spike cups onto vibration pads from Bunnings  - works fine with no footfall thumps or vibrations that i can detect.

What plinth is the 401 in ?

Edited September 18, 2020 by Grumpy

[Tax]

5 hours ago, Grumpy said:

G'day Tax. Your wheel does look to have some kind of marking or wear on it, but If the speed is already fine, I woudn't bother with the idler wheel upgrade yet unless you want to. (I was thinking of doing the wheel upgrade also, but I am happy with the way things are, for now, maybe I wil upgrade the wheel in the future,)

I recentley changed the thrust pad bearing on my 401 which gave me better speed stability and to my old ears a cleaner more detailed sound.

The feet I use are spikes onto spike cups onto vibration pads from Bunnings  - works fine with no footfall thumps or vibrations that i can detect.

What plinth is the 401 in ?

 

5 hours ago, Grumpy said:

G'day Tax. Your wheel does look to have some kind of marking or wear on it, but If the speed is already fine, I woudn't bother with the idler wheel upgrade yet unless you want to. (I was thinking of doing the wheel upgrade also, but I am happy with the way things are, for now, maybe I wil upgrade the wheel in the future,)

I recentley changed the thrust pad bearing on my 401 which gave me better speed stability and to my old ears a cleaner more detailed sound.

The feet I use are spikes onto spike cups onto vibration pads from Bunnings  - works fine with no footfall thumps or vibrations that i can detect.

What plinth is the 401 in ?

Thanks Grumpy!

 

Looks like the money would be better spent on other things first as the speed stability and noise through stethoscope was good.

 

Plinth is going to be a combination of blackwood and redgum stacked and glued to 120mm. Thanks to @TD19 who kindly shared a printable template. 

 

I found some Marigo Audio TT feet which I had bought more than a decade ago when I had my Well Tempered Classic and am considering incorporating them into the plinth build. They are like a hard composite puck with a double sided spike that you can interchange from blunt rounded side to piercing spike. Photo attached.

 

8 hours ago, aussievintage said:

You don't say what plinth you have.  Big idlers benefit from large massive plinths.    You need appropriate large, strong feet.  I have my large plinth on rubber vibration absorbing  pads, sitting on a wooden platform that has an absorbing layer under that.  Sort of a 2-stage thing.  Experiment with different materials.  Bunnings is a good source, for example the rubber squares that they use under airconditioners and washing machines, and also the foam/rubber things for under furniture legs.  You don't have to spend a fortune and it's fun to experiment.   I have even used a layer of polystyrene foam under mine.

Thanks Aussievintage!

 

Yes, amazing what you can find in Bunnings

 

Plinth is going to be a combination of blackwood and redgum stacked and glued to 120mm. I am not sure how much the final unit will weigh. The armboards may weigh a couple of Kg so overall it will be a somewhat heavy turntable.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Tax

[Baffilled]

Hi Tax,

I too have a Garrard 401, I use Herbie's gear underneath it. I've experimented a bit. Seismic are better but at a considerable price.

I use Fat Dot underneath the sub plinth plate and Tender feet big tall extra firm under the plinth.

The plinth is made of marine ply, with an aluminum arm plate that was color matched to the original color. I've been told it's better to have the turntable motor and tonearm on the same plate, that is, not separated.

 

The tonearm is a 12" Golden age audio with a custom head shell, the cartridge is a modified Zyx bloom with a sound smith tip.

 

I was fortunate to work with the brilliant Peter on this project, he was surprised how good it sounded, but as earlier mentioned, preferred the Commonwealth followed by the 301.

 

I've sent a pic to explain above

 

Hope this helps, Kev.

Edited September 19, 2020 by 65eclipse

[Shark]

On 18/09/2020 at 8:52 AM, Tax said:

1) Does the original idler wheel need upgrading? The one in my unit looks good and does not shown any wear when I run my finger around it.

 

When I powered it up, it ran smoothly at the speeds and speed was spot on when measured with my Allnic strobescope.

 

2) Are there significant gains (if any) by upgrading to an after market idler wheel such as Audio Silente or others?

 

This TT is in such good original condition that I am loath to do any unwarranted modifications.

 

3) Are there any recommendations for feet for the plinth? 

4) Not sure whether it is worth the investment from something like still points. Is there anyone using them on a Garrard?

Hi Tax, congrats on the Garrard 401 purchase, you won't regret it, so long as you attend some basic things in the build. I've built a good handful of Garrards now, and a bunch of other Tables, and hopefully my comments help you make some decisions without going "crazy" with your budget.

 

1) + 2) The Drive System is critical on any Deck and Garrards are no exception. One of their biggest advantages Garrards have over other decks is Dynamics. The life of the music stems from dynamics, and the Garrads being a pseudo-direct drive have dynamics to burn. Any micro slip in the drive will compromise dynamics and speed stability. The Idler in your photo looks pretty good, but the rubber at the end of the day, is 50+ years old and compromised at best. You can get it dressed (linished), and it may be ok for a while, but it's still 50 year old rubber and no where near as grippy as it was on day one. I won't build a Garrard now without the Audio Silent Idler. It comes with new bearing bushes and a drive pin which is usually what is required. If you can feel any movement in the Idler with respect to its bearings then it needs new Bushes. Movement here will result in noise and mistracking at the Rim. The Top Plate Bush is easy to replace, but the Lower Bush is a pig and needs the Thrust Plate de-riveted and tapped for re-attachment. Below is one such Assy I did recently.

 

3) I see you're using a Mass Loaded Plinth which without a suspension is going to be super sensitive to what it sits on. You can see 65eclipse has done just that above. I assume your going to put the Table on a Rack or similar so don't be tempted to "couple" the Table to it using Spiked Feet, or similar rigid coupling system. Use something compliant (decouple) like the Herbies units above or Vibrapods as I use, which are cheap and very effective. See photo below.

 

4) Still Points. hmm, very expensive items. They probably work really well in the correct context, but seem to be a coupler rather than a decoupler. Anybody pulled their Still Points apart? Do they use anything compliant inside or is it ceramic balls  or other hard internal components?

 

Your Bearing is also an area of potential issue. Virtually all Garrards I've looked at have a metal Thrust Bearing (copper sprayed steel) which has a flat worn on it and "grinds away" making lots of noise. See photo below. Wasn't really a big issue when the Radio Transmission Medium of the day was AM! You could have a rampant herd of teenagers doing burnouts in the Radio Station car park and you wouldn't hear it on AM Radio!  On a high end system however,....everything gets noticed. Do yourself a favor and pull the Spindle Bearing apart. Check there is no discernible Radial Clearance on the Spindle with a bit of oil in place, and throw away the original Thrust Bearing and replace it with an Engineering Plastic unit like the one below. These are cheap, require no modification, and are very quiet. Think "Silky", not "Grindy"! 

 

Sorry if I'm rambling here a bit, but don't think of your Garrard as some old relic that's just a nice piece of nostalgia that looks nice near the rest of your gear. These units can really boogey and perform remarkably well, which is why Sugano San of Koetsu used Garrards as test Decks for his cartridges, so put a decent Tone Arm on it. A client of mine recently put a Jelco 12" on one of my Tables and it performs brilliantly and is considering something more exotic to unleash even more potential. Use something of this ilk or better to get the most out of your Garrard.

 

There's lots of other things you can do to hot rod Garrards, but the above will give you a very good start so you can hear what all the fuss is about.

 

Post some Photos of it when your done on the "Show us your Tables" thread I'd love to see how it turns out. Best of luck Tax.

Cheers, Mark.

 

 

[Full Range]

No need to change the idler wheel unless it’s damaged 

 

Inspect the bearing to see if it has any wear. If it needs replacing I favour the ball bearing replacement over the ceramic type 

 

We have spoken about the plinth and arm pods, so you are on the right track

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Full Range

[Soundscape]

Regarding using either coupling or isolation under the plinth, it depends on what the turntable is sitting on. If it's a properly damped rack or platform, then go with coupling as that would serve to drain any left over energy from the plinth into the damped platform. But if the platform/rack shelf is not damped (most are not) , then isolate using a compliant material like vibrapods. 

[NeilNZ]

I've rebuilt many 301s and 401s. No need to change the idler if it isn't damaged. I tried an Audio Silente in my 301 and there was no difference. It is a beautiful thing though, can't fault Simone's engineering. The best feet I have ever used on a Garrard are the Isoacoustic Gaia3s. They're amazing.

 

[TD19]

+1 for the Gaia 3s. I have them on a Vinylista plinth housing my 401.

[denimhunter]

Hi

1. there seems to be varying opinions about the idler.  I have changed my wheel in 401 to audio silente and there is noticeable difference.  Although the wheel looks ok and u can sandpaper it smooth but rubber hardens over time. Also it’s difficult to tell if the wheel it’s Marginally out of shape.  Change the wheel and see if I can hear the difference. Easily revert to original.
 

2. I have experimented with supports.  I am using a mass Multi layered ply plinth.  Tried Harmonix feet, ebony, various timber, soft feet etc.  I think the ‘supports’ need to do 2 things:  isolate noise coming into TT and drain vibration away as quickly as possible.  I found one type of feet won’t be able to do both.

Worse support are soft silicon type in direct contact with plinth, that drains the dynamic.

First contact with the plinth should drains vibration , not dampen.  I have use particular timber block for that after some experimentation.

then the timber block sit on but decouple from an isolating base like metal plate on a more dampening base to stop Air born and ground transmitted vibration.

 

keep experimenting.  hope that make sense.

 

[Guest 12ax7b]

16 hours ago, NeilNZ said:

I tried an Audio Silente in my 301 and there was no difference.

Just because you cant hear it doesn't mean there is no difference.

 

I have compared an original fully refurbished Audio Grail idler wheel to both the Audio Silente and Artisan Fidelity idler wheels in both a fully restored 301 and 401. The differences were clearly audible, the Artisan Fidelity being the best by some margin - much cleaner and more transparent high frequency extension being the most obvious along with better overall timing.

 

I have also tried removing the glaze and truing an original ( with 1200 wet and dry ) on a lathe. Whilst the initial gains were significant, over time the old rubber gets noisy again.

 

[NeilNZ]

I never said there was no difference, just that I couldn't hear one, in my system, or with the five different 301s and 401s that were tried. The only reason to change the idler wheel is if the rubber has perished, or the bushings are worn. Clearly the idlers of the Garrards I tested the AS with were in good condition, and they were. I have replaced many idlers, but I couldn't discern a difference between a good condition standard idler, or the AS. Doesn't mean there isn't one, but maybe I'm not sensitive to the type of change it produces. Who knows, or cares!

I don't claim to be any sort of golden-eared guru with magical senses of perception, but I do have my own experience to draw from. YMMV.

Edited September 20, 2020 by NeilNZ

[Guest 12ax7b]

On 19/09/2020 at 11:16 PM, NeilNZ said:

I tried an Audio Silente in my 301 and there was no difference.

 

5 hours ago, NeilNZ said:

I never said there was no difference, just that I couldn't hear one

 

Nuff said.

22 hours ago, 12ax7b said:

Just because you cant hear it doesn't mean there is no difference.

It would appear we are in agreement .

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by 12ax7b

[Tax]

On 18/09/2020 at 9:08 PM, 65eclipse said:

Hi Tax,

I too have a Garrard 401, I use Herbie's gear underneath it. I've experimented a bit. Seismic are better but at a considerable price.

I use Fat Dot underneath the sub plinth plate and Tender feet big tall extra firm under the plinth.

The plinth is made of marine ply, with an aluminum arm plate that was color matched to the original color. I've been told it's better to have the turntable motor and tonearm on the same plate, that is, not separated.

 

The tonearm is a 12" Golden age audio with a custom head shell, the cartridge is a modified Zyx bloom with a sound smith tip.

 

I was fortunate to work with the brilliant Peter on this project, he was surprised how good it sounded, but as earlier mentioned, preferred the Commonwealth followed by the 301.

 

I've sent a pic to explain above

 

Hope this helps, Kev.

Thanks Kev!

 

Plinth and set up looks great.

 

Yes, Duc was very helpful and was always willing to try and fabricate something when needed. 

 

I have 4 of these Herbies footers. I am contemplating whether I should cut out a recess in one of the plinth layers and then use it as a sandwich for the next layer. Not sure how it would work with the solid hardwood I am considering. Would possibly work in a birch play void with the wood veneer wrap.

 

 

[Tax]

On 19/09/2020 at 8:04 PM, Shark said:

Hi Tax, congrats on the Garrard 401 purchase, you won't regret it, so long as you attend some basic things in the build. I've built a good handful of Garrards now, and a bunch of other Tables, and hopefully my comments help you make some decisions without going "crazy" with your budget.

 

1) + 2) The Drive System is critical on any Deck and Garrards are no exception. One of their biggest advantages Garrards have over other decks is Dynamics. The life of the music stems from dynamics, and the Garrads being a pseudo-direct drive have dynamics to burn. Any micro slip in the drive will compromise dynamics and speed stability. The Idler in your photo looks pretty good, but the rubber at the end of the day, is 50+ years old and compromised at best. You can get it dressed (linished), and it may be ok for a while, but it's still 50 year old rubber and no where near as grippy as it was on day one. I won't build a Garrard now without the Audio Silent Idler. It comes with new bearing bushes and a drive pin which is usually what is required. If you can feel any movement in the Idler with respect to its bearings then it needs new Bushes. Movement here will result in noise and mistracking at the Rim. The Top Plate Bush is easy to replace, but the Lower Bush is a pig and needs the Thrust Plate de-riveted and tapped for re-attachment. Below is one such Assy I did recently.

 

3) I see you're using a Mass Loaded Plinth which without a suspension is going to be super sensitive to what it sits on. You can see 65eclipse has done just that above. I assume your going to put the Table on a Rack or similar so don't be tempted to "couple" the Table to it using Spiked Feet, or similar rigid coupling system. Use something compliant (decouple) like the Herbies units above or Vibrapods as I use, which are cheap and very effective. See photo below.

 

4) Still Points. hmm, very expensive items. They probably work really well in the correct context, but seem to be a coupler rather than a decoupler. Anybody pulled their Still Points apart? Do they use anything compliant inside or is it ceramic balls  or other hard internal components?

 

Your Bearing is also an area of potential issue. Virtually all Garrards I've looked at have a metal Thrust Bearing (copper sprayed steel) which has a flat worn on it and "grinds away" making lots of noise. See photo below. Wasn't really a big issue when the Radio Transmission Medium of the day was AM! You could have a rampant herd of teenagers doing burnouts in the Radio Station car park and you wouldn't hear it on AM Radio!  On a high end system however,....everything gets noticed. Do yourself a favor and pull the Spindle Bearing apart. Check there is no discernible Radial Clearance on the Spindle with a bit of oil in place, and throw away the original Thrust Bearing and replace it with an Engineering Plastic unit like the one below. These are cheap, require no modification, and are very quiet. Think "Silky", not "Grindy"! 

 

Sorry if I'm rambling here a bit, but don't think of your Garrard as some old relic that's just a nice piece of nostalgia that looks nice near the rest of your gear. These units can really boogey and perform remarkably well, which is why Sugano San of Koetsu used Garrards as test Decks for his cartridges, so put a decent Tone Arm on it. A client of mine recently put a Jelco 12" on one of my Tables and it performs brilliantly and is considering something more exotic to unleash even more potential. Use something of this ilk or better to get the most out of your Garrard.

 

There's lots of other things you can do to hot rod Garrards, but the above will give you a very good start so you can hear what all the fuss is about.

 

Post some Photos of it when your done on the "Show us your Tables" thread I'd love to see how it turns out. Best of luck Tax.

Cheers, Mark.

 

Thanks Mark!

 

This is good advice.

 

My initial thoughts are to get a suitable plinth done up and then give the 401 a listen so I get some bearing as to its sound signature and then decide how much money should be thrown at it to address any issues arising. 

 

I hope to be using a 12 inch tonearm (to be purchased) with a couple of SPU G type cartridges which I own. I am also considering making the plinth so it has the capability to take two tonearms ala the Artisan Fidelity TT's in the photos below. I will deal with another arm somewhere down the track when I know what I am doing but intend having the arm cut out and base plate ready so I do not have to muck around with the plinth later.

 

I have not fully decided on the footers yet. Given that I have Herbies tender feet and Marigo Audio feet mod that I got for my old Well Tempered TT which is some form of delrin type material, I would be interested in a cheaper approach. Interestingly Marigo had some form of rubber and spike arrangement so that it was a combination of three materials. I was looking at the Track Audio footers as Woodsong Audio uses them in their Garrard plinths.

 

I wonder whether building a separate base plate out of wood may work where I can either use spikes or polymers depending on whether I need to couple or decouple?  Interestingly some of the internals of the Artisan plinths look like they may have some small voids in between the layers of stacked wood.  In another photo you can see that they also use rubber bushings under the top plate but I think that plinth may not be for a Garrard. So it may be that they have spots where they couple and decouple.

 

Do you happen to use the original mounting rods or longer ones? I am considering getting some from SMD in the UK where they are 90 -100mm long so that way the voids for the mounting rods can be small for at least the top 80mm of the plinth.

 

 

 

[Tax]

On 19/09/2020 at 9:16 PM, NeilNZ said:

I've rebuilt many 301s and 401s. No need to change the idler if it isn't damaged. I tried an Audio Silente in my 301 and there was no difference. It is a beautiful thing though, can't fault Simone's engineering. The best feet I have ever used on a Garrard are the Isoacoustic Gaia3s. They're amazing.

 

Thanks!

 

The Gaia3S seem more affordable than the Track Audio which are around $900.

 

Is there a particular thread size that you prefer ala M8 or M6?

 

Also how have you compared the AS idler whhel to the Artisan Fidelity one?

Edited September 21, 2020 by Tax

[Tax]

On 20/09/2020 at 2:04 PM, 12ax7b said:

I have compared an original fully refurbished Audio Grail idler wheel to both the Audio Silente and Artisan Fidelity idler wheels in both a fully restored 301 and 401. The differences were clearly audible, the Artisan Fidelity being the best by some margin - much cleaner and more transparent high frequency extension being the most obvious along with better overall timing.

 

Thanks!

 

What is the going price on the Artisan Fidelity idler. Do they still sell components such as idler wheels to the DIY community?

[metal beat]

29 minutes ago, Tax said:

Thanks!

 

What is the going price on the Artisan Fidelity idler. Do they still sell components such as idler wheels to the DIY community?

 

absolutely Tax.  $US 365        I bought one of their copper platters.

 

https://www.artisanfidelity.com/accessories/garrard-301-precision-idler-wheel

 

 

[Tax]

49 minutes ago, metal beat said:

 

absolutely Tax.  $US 365        I bought one of their copper platters.

 

https://www.artisanfidelity.com/accessories/garrard-301-precision-idler-wheel

 

 

Thanks Shane!

 

Good to know. I will consider one down the track.

 
The copper platters have become increasingly expensive. Even the MS Cu180 seems to haveh it the thousand mark.Yikes

 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Tax

[Guest 12ax7b]

32 minutes ago, Tax said:

What is the going price on the Artisan Fidelity idler.

Expensive - US$365 - but worth it if you want the best. I installed one on a 401 that already had a bearing & platter upgrade and new idler wheel from Audio Grail, and the improvement was significant, particularly upper mid to high frequency transparency and precision.

 

I have also installed the Italian AS idler on a 301 that had a new Audio Grail idler wheel, and it was better, but not in the league of the Artidan Fidelity.

 

Bang for your buck the AS is good value, and if my idler wheel was old, I would buy this over a CTC or Audio Grail wheel replacement.

If you want the best the Artisan Fidelity is worth it in my view.

 

In both instances I installed new idler wheel bearings - I got them set to a point the idler wheel spins freely for a substantial period of time before stopping - this attention to detail is also well worth the effort.

 

Idler wheel noise is the archilles heel of the 301/401. Getting them smooth, noise free, and accurate is the best way to lower the noise floor and improve resolution - better than upgrading the platter/bearing in many ways.

[Tax]

16 minutes ago, 12ax7b said:

Expensive - US$365 - but worth it if you want the best. I installed one on a 401 that already had a bearing & platter upgrade and new idler wheel from Audio Grail, and the improvement was significant, particularly upper mid to high frequency transparency and precision.

 

I have also installed the Italian AS idler on a 301 that had a new Audio Grail idler wheel, and it was better, but not in the league of the Artidan Fidelity.

 

Bang for your buck the AS is good value, and if my idler wheel was old, I would buy this over a CTC or Audio Grail wheel replacement.

If you want the best the Artisan Fidelity is worth it in my view.

 

In both instances I installed new idler wheel bearings - I got them set to a point the idler wheel spins freely for a substantial period of time before stopping - this attention to detail is also well worth the effort.

 

Idler wheel noise is the archilles heel of the 301/401. Getting them smooth, noise free, and accurate is the best way to lower the noise floor and improve resolution - better than upgrading the platter/bearing in many ways.

Thanks!

 

Good to know that the base Garrard unit can be built upon by some enhancements.

 

I will probably fork out for the AS wheel at a later stage as this Garrard is not intended to replace my primary table. It will reside in the "downsized" second system but may someday become the primary hence provisioning the second armboard as I have 4 other tonearms on my primary that can be used on the 401. 

 

BTW: I just gave my idler wheel one spin with a finger and it spun out for 21 seconds (timed on my phone timer)

 

Are we looking for "spins freely" substantially more than that?

 

 

 

[Tax]

 

On 20/09/2020 at 8:52 AM, TD19 said:

+1 for the Gaia 3s. I have them on a Vinylista plinth housing my 401.

 

On 19/09/2020 at 9:16 PM, NeilNZ said:

I've rebuilt many 301s and 401s. The best feet I have ever used on a Garrard are the Isoacoustic Gaia3s. They're amazing.

 

Thanks Gents!

 

I have ordered a set of the Gaia 3's. Should arrive next week.

 

 

[crtexcnndrm99]

4 hours ago, Tax said:

Thanks Shane!

 

Good to know. I will consider one down the track.

 
The copper platters have become increasingly expensive. Even the MS Cu180 seems to haveh it the thousand mark.Yikes

 

 

It's not copper, but thought I'd offer that there is a brass platter by 'Audiocreative.nl' which would come in at ~500 or less whose gold brilliance I have my eye on ('eventually'...). 

[Baffilled]

Hi Tax,

Enjoying the thread,

Could you please give me your opinion on the difference between the herbies and Gai 3s ?

 

Metalbeat, was there a significant difference when you replaced your old platter with the Artisan fidelity copper platter?

I've been drooling over them for years.

 

Just for the record, I manufactured a few platters for 301"s and 401's a couple of years ago out of 6061 Ally and just the billets cost $125.00 each.