betty boop Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 Hopefully avforums guys get hold of one as well as play with a straight bat, tell it like it is. And good to see at least 2 reviewers comments here already doing this. Fluff reviews provide nothing. Oh look pretty pictures ! Jeepers at the price point these things I’d expect pretty pictures. What helps is critical and comparative reviews. That helps folks understand the real benefits one brands product offers over another. Even Sony deserve critical and comparative reviews. So they can take on and further refine. competition is a great thing, I only want more of it. And more of joy of possibilities shared with more. timing couldn’t be better, jvcs 2nd gen of dtm is due via firmware mid nov. Sony hopefully has hardware necessary, never know what can deliver via software down the track now to further improve and further refine. Hopefully provides something that’s up on jvc efforts i see lg with laser front projector, not native 4k and its Dlp, But they are bringing out with dynamic tone mapping https://www.stereo.net.au/news/lg-hu810p-laser-4k-projector-coming-soon bring it on! Now just need epson to get off its lazy butt and hopefully benq as well these are giants in projection world 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Marc Posted September 9, 2020 Administrator Share Posted September 9, 2020 Information is light I'm afraid. https://www.stereo.net.au/news/sony-launches-three-native-4k-home-cinema-projectors There's a full presentation and virtual launch for press and industry at 11am this morning so hopefully some more info. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 2 hours ago, betty boop said: Hopefully avforums guys get hold of one as well as play with a straight bat, tell it like it is. And good to see at least 2 reviewers comments here already doing this. Fluff reviews provide nothing. Oh look pretty pictures ! Jeepers at the price point these things I’d expect pretty pictures. What helps is critical and comparative reviews. That helps folks understand the real benefits one brands product offers over another. Even Sony deserve critical and comparative reviews. So they can take on and further refine. competition is a great thing, I only want more of it. And more of joy of possibilities shared with more. timing couldn’t be better, jvcs 2nd gen of dtm is due via firmware mid nov. Sony hopefully has hardware necessary, never know what can deliver via software down the track now to further improve and further refine. Hopefully provides something that’s up on jvc efforts i see lg with laser front projector, not native 4k and its Dlp, But they are bringing out with dynamic tone mapping https://www.stereo.net.au/news/lg-hu810p-laser-4k-projector-coming-soon bring it on! Now just need epson to get off its lazy butt and hopefully benq as well these are giants in projection world Will be interesting to hear what Vincent thinks oh and Kris Deering too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Just now, oztheatre said: Will be interesting to hear what Vincent thinks oh and Kris Deering too. as of 2 hours ago from Kris deering.... "This isn't a different implementation. Honestly, this isn't even as good as what Panasonic did with their advanced static tone mapping. This is just a contrast enhancer that changes the overall luminance of the frame while at the same time decreases saturation. It clips both the high and low end of the signal as well (clipping into white and into black) to boost perceptual contrast. A true DTM wouldn't care what settings you have when you bounced from something like a 4000 nit title (The Meg) to something with really low nits (BR2049). Both images would look great and you shouldn't have to adjust anything. With the Sony, you still have to setup the proper clip point for the tone map using the contrast setting like before, but instead of it adapting to different levels of content, you have to go back and change it for different titles or else you end up with severe clipping or an extremely dark image. Again, if this was demonstrated in front of you on screen the differences are night and day when you compare to a proper DTM solution. Even something like Panasonic's older intelligent static tone map does a better job going from one piece of content to another." I look forward to his full review and agree also to see what vincent actually has to say once has one in hands. hopefully Tony here locally gets something in his hands too and can do a "warts and all" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) On 09/09/2020 at 10:34 AM, betty boop said: as of 2 hours ago from Kris deering.... "This isn't a different implementation. Honestly, this isn't even as good as what Panasonic did with their advanced static tone mapping. This is just a contrast enhancer that changes the overall luminance of the frame while at the same time decreases saturation. It clips both the high and low end of the signal as well (clipping into white and into black) to boost perceptual contrast. A true DTM wouldn't care what settings you have when you bounced from something like a 4000 nit title (The Meg) to something with really low nits (BR2049). Both images would look great and you shouldn't have to adjust anything. With the Sony, you still have to setup the proper clip point for the tone map using the contrast setting like before, but instead of it adapting to different levels of content, you have to go back and change it for different titles or else you end up with severe clipping or an extremely dark image. Again, if this was demonstrated in front of you on screen the differences are night and day when you compare to a proper DTM solution. Even something like Panasonic's older intelligent static tone map does a better job going from one piece of content to another." I look forward to his full review and agree also to see what vincent actually has to say once has one in hands. hopefully Tony here locally gets something in his hands too and can do a "warts and all" wow.. reality check for them then. Let's try and be neutral and see how it pans out? Edited September 11, 2020 by oztheatre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrC Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Sounds like it is a thumbs down .... it appears as if it has all the hallmarks of classic marketing spin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooferocau Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, MrC said: it appears as if it has all the hallmarks of classic marketing spin. Exactly ...which is such a pity!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 I must admit to being utterly confounded as to why a company like Sony would not have picked up any shortcomings in HDR performance - shortcomings that seem obvious to experienced observers. I am looking forward to Vincent’s and SNA reviews however. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Kris is himself just as surprised as per note below, looks like he is reaching out to sony so we might have some answers. At end of it I still wonder what the benefit being provided by their approach...even if not quite what folks thinking what it does. "I definitely don't think Sony engineers are incompetent, they've created some fantastic displays including this one I'm reviewing. I'm just surprised that this is the dynamic tone mapping they are delivering when there are examples out there that would be easy to test against. I've reached out to the product managers and hope to find out more." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 It isn't a question of competence but rather why choose an approach that will not do the job? Most competent companies could do it - even LG does - so the reason is more likely to be due to internal bureaucracy . Time will tell I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 BTW, I heard back from a dealer that the new model is going to be the same price here as the 760. The price drop mentioned was more to bring the US pricing in line with the rest of the world I expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Marc Posted September 9, 2020 Administrator Share Posted September 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said: BTW, I heard back from a dealer that the new model is going to be the same price here as the 760. The price drop mentioned was more to bring the US pricing in line with the rest of the world I expect. Pricing is here: https://www.stereo.net.au/news/sony-launches-three-native-4k-home-cinema-projectors Some thoughts from Tony: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Disappointing. No price reduction on the 790ES for AU? RRP listed as $22,999. This is the same as the 760ES was it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooferocau Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 3 hours ago, TP1 said: It isn't a question of competence but rather why choose an approach that will not do the job? Most competent companies could do it - even LG does - so the reason is more likely to be due to internal bureaucracy . Time will tell I guess. Yeah, Sony had the chance to really push their PJ,s forward......DTM is fairly much now considered "Mandatory" when it come to PJ,s. Sony "could" do whats required to implement it correctly, as to WHY they did not is a real frustrating mystery?? No one wants SONY NOT to progress..... that would be a an utterly selfish and stupid attitude , as the MORE competition that each representative company brings to the table ultimately benefits the end user as each tries to implement new and improved features over the "Competition" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franin Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 I remember when I used to own the Sony VPL 870es and we had the contrast enhancer which corrects the level of brightness and dark parts automatically to optimise contrast to a scene. Had 3 levels High middle and low. At the time we thought it was DTM but was told otherwise by Kris. Looks like this new one is quite similar. I will say this damn shame as Sony has great colours on screen. If I miss anything on the Sony it’s the laser and the colour reproduction the image just popped. It was very nice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Also in-depth review on the 790 from Projector Review.com - https://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/sony-vpl-vw915es-4k-sxrd-home-theater-laser-projector-review/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 OK. While Sony's approach to DTM is not like others, according to them their method is more faithful in terms of the representation of the HDR standard. They seem to acknowledge the downsides of this approach which brings me to the the question - why do it that way if the problems are avoidable? I do know they are sticklers for adherence to standards but surely all bets are off when it comes to projectors and HDR. In any event, balanced reviews are starting to come through and it seems that the projector's performance is stellar nevertheless. In regard to HDR , this is what they had to say: "The new Dynamic Contrast Enhancer feature which does frame by frame HDR tone mapping did a great job balancing the need to deliver respectable full screen brightness while still displaying a good amount highlight detail. Sometimes brighter highlights are still clipped, but Sony believes this necessary to keep most of the image on screen as close to the director’s intent as possible. Unlike most HDR compatible projectors, it was rare that I felt a need to make any manual tone mapping adjustments of the VW915ES during HDR viewing. While I left the Dynamic Contrast Enhancer set to LOW during most of my HDR viewing, occasionally there was a need to set it to HIGH when watching dimly mastered HDR material. This could be done quickly with the press of a button on the remote control." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 And in regard to black levels, projector Review had this to say: "While JVC D-ILA models have been the reigning black level champions for years, I believe the VW915 would give the JVC models some stiff competition viewing real-world content especially HDR. I would love the opportunity to compare the Sony VW915ES and JVC NX9 side by side so I could share my findings." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 hmmm ekki's call.... I have no doubt there are indeed some improvements with what sony has done (why else would they do it) even if its not quite what folk expect... "No, it's not new for the projectors either. Whoever saw Sony's presentation yesterday: Sony doesn't claim that the HDR enhancer works very differently than the normal contrast enhancer. Instead, Sony only points out that the HDR Enhancer should work more precisely than the Contrast Enhancer. In direct comparison, however, you cannot see this improvement in the VW590, even in difficult scenes. I compared various films with the same settings. Allegedly, the color depth should be improved, but this is likely to be lost in view of the limited PWM color depth of the panels. So far it seems to me more like the yearly "improved" Reality Creation or eShift 1/2/3/4 etc. As for the DFO: I was referring to the processor, so it could be delivered as an update for the VWx70 models at any time. Wait for the series. Incidentally, in my tests, the VW790 showed a slightly different mode of operation of the HDR enhancer than the VW590. Greeting, Ekki " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 The question is do you want balanced reviews or just click bait? We know that some people rely on their online presence to give a boost to their paid jobs. In the USA the best way to do that is to drop bombshells before anyone else. I'm not saying there is nothing in what's being said but I am reminded of the same frenzied criticism of the 760ES which did in fact prove to be blown out of proportion . The fact that Sony continued to improve it during its model life barely got a mention - that isn't click bait material. There will still be some to come until the weight of many published reviews takes over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Marc Posted September 10, 2020 Administrator Share Posted September 10, 2020 @TP1 - you've said what I have been thinking all along. I'm surprised at the amount of bashing these new models have copped so far, when the three people I know and trust in this space that have actually been hands-on have all had very positive things to say so far. It's a bandwagon thing though, and it's sad that threads can tend to head down a very negative path fuelled by the ongoing commentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooferocau Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 https://www.heimkinoverein.de/forum/thread/19014-sony-vpl-vw590-und-sony-vpl-vw790/?postID=135499#post135499 Interesting, Ekki does not see any hardware differences between the old VW570 and the new VW590/715! I looked at the main board of the new one and couldn't see any changes (photos will follow in the test). https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-sony-vw885es-vw760es-owners-thread.2941614/post-60091741 If the latest from the german thread is true (which it probably is), it really blows my fuses - same logic board, only new software and a new model name. Plus the fake denial that it can't be done on old models. This is such an attempt at a money grab - unless they change their minds and backport. "I'm very curious to see how the new dynamic HDR contrast enhancer will fare in the first tests, but I can't shake the feeling that the projectors, apart from a new name and new software, are actually not new devices, respectively the 570s and 760s should also have their status updated. Ekki's statements here support my feeling even more. Since I have a very good direct line to Sony, I was amazed that new devices were coming. I was informed by Sony in early summer that this year there will be no new models apart from the Raptor, the VW270 will remain, the VW570 and 760 will get a software update, nothing happens with the VW870. I'm speculating, Sony has now decided to launch the software update as a new model." https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-sony-vw885es-vw760es-owners-thread.2941614/post-60091737 He also said the following.... Translated.... referring to the X1 chip: "No, it's not new for the projectors either. Whoever saw Sony's presentation yesterday: Sony doesn't claim that the HDR enhancer works very differently than the normal contrast enhancer. Instead, Sony only points out that the HDR enhancer should work more precisely than the contrast enhancer. In direct comparison, however, you cannot see this improvement in the VW590, even in difficult scenes. I compared various films with the same settings. Allegedly, the color depth should be improved, but this is likely to be lost in view of the limited PWM color depth of the panels. To me it seems more like the annually "improved" Reality Creation or eShift 1/2/3/4 etc. As for the DFO: I was referring to the processor, so it could be delivered as an update for the VWx70 models at any time. Wait for the series. Incidentally, in my tests, the VW790 showed a slightly different mode of operation of the HDR enhancer than the VW590. Greeting, Ekki" So there you go. We could have an update to help with the destroying of 000's off the resale value of our units when they are sold on.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franin Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 I can’t believe the 870es is not getting any upgrade. Not even the auto HDR to SDR switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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