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Dos and Donts for New Setup in 4.3 x 3.7 m room?


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2 minutes ago, perthpete said:

yes absolutely, and they still are I find...

perthpete, this is something i found from some speakers i had for many years around same vintage of the B&Ws and probably similar price point. it actually took spending quite a bit to significantly improve... ie enough to justify the upgrade.... hence why was suggesting to demo up... speakers kind of thing keep for very long time and these things tend to last time. so well worth buying well and buying once.... if like the B&W sound as per previous demoing, definitely check out more in that range.

 

if you have the chance... one bit of playing around you might want to venture would be when no one is looking :D 

 

grab the CDM7SE and move them into the other room .... if its a HT setup in the main room... likely no one will notice anyways :D ...seeing most sound comes from the centre speaker anyway hehe

 

if have a spare amp could then play around with the B&W and see how they sound there.... also can then check what is best orientation, how best to use the room, seating location and such. be something well worth doing :)

 

 

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On 21/08/2020 at 9:18 PM, betty boop said:

Peter the greek has a point... need to consider both options ...

 

I went opposite way of OP, giving up my music room and combining my 2ch with the AV side... didnt have to give up either... and was actually to overall benefit with the combined setup being in the better room...

 

improving the 2ch side is definitely worth considering if gives better 2ch experience as well.

 

all might need to do is upgrade just the mains .... and buying a 2ch integrated with ht bypass... use in existing setup if HT is felt good enough"

Yeah it might.. Just to make sure / clarify, my HT system is run from a Denon X6200W, however the mains are going via a Parasound A21 (2x250W) power amp. Assuming that is what you with HT Bypass?? sort of?? see attached photo.. (if I have not made it too small that is)

system.jpg

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1 hour ago, perthpete said:

Yeah it might.. Just to make sure / clarify, my HT system is run from a Denon X6200W, however the mains are going via a Parasound A21 (2x250W) power amp. Assuming that is what you with HT Bypass?? sort of?? see attached photo.. (if I have not made it too small that is)

ah i see... didn't realise had the parasound power already... you'd need to add a 2ch pre with ht bypass... parasound makes one in the p5

https://www.parasound.com/p5.php

 

looks like p6 is current,

https://clefhifi.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=124&products_id=3933&osCsid=7d1getsocucbvbkgbkbbotdck5

 

can you transport the parasound power amp across to the other room.... in which case id move the B&W and power amp to other room to play :D 

 

your power amp is a very good basis of the new system in the new room... all id add is a 2ch pre and either the current B&W or new ones and you'd have quite a system ! :) 

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9 minutes ago, betty boop said:

perthpete, this is something i found from some speakers i had for many years around same vintage of the B&Ws and probably similar price point. it actually took spending quite a bit to significantly improve... ie  enough to justify the upgrade.... hence why was suggesting to demo up... speakers kind of thing keep for very long time and these things tend to last time. so well worth buying well and buying once.... if like the B&W sound as per previous demoing, definitely check out more in that range.

 

if you have the chance... one bit of playing around you might want to venture would be when no one is looking :D 

 

grab the CDM7SE and move them into the other room .... if its a HT setup in the main room... likely no one will notice anyways :D ...seeing most sound comes from the centre speaker anyway hehe

 

if have a spare amp could then play around with the B&W and see how they sound there.... also can then check what is best orientation, how best to use the room, seating location and such. be something well worth doing :)

 

 

 

Yes, most definitely the dollars (well, Dutch Guilders which it was when we bought them, even before the Euro was introduced). This pair of cdm7se s was 4000 guilders, or just under AUD 3000. Of course 20+ years ago 3000 dollars in todays money would be... what?? do we really know :-). So yes, I think at least equal quality speaker are not going to be found for the same dollars... although with improvements in engineering and technics.. who knows... 

 

While I do have our previous AVR still.. I do not have a Power amp lying around. Indeed was thinking to also have a play with temporary moving the Parasound and the speakers (hmm means should also move the sub because that is also in the mix) to the other room for a day.. maybe during a week holiday end of september... My gut feeling would be the orientatin very likely is going to have to be putting the speakers on the side where the windows are...

 

Notably not too easy to convince myself to spend the dollars either, epsecially with the 'Devils Advocate' (my wife) wispering in my ear .... ?

 

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6 minutes ago, perthpete said:

 

Yes, most definitely the dollars (well, Dutch Guilders which it was when we bought them, even before the Euro was introduced). This pair of cdm7se s was 4000 guilders, or just under AUD 3000. Of course 20+ years ago 3000 dollars in todays money would be... what?? do we really know :-). So yes, I think at least equal quality speaker are not going to be found for the same dollars... although with improvements in engineering and technics.. who knows... 

 

While I do have our previous AVR still.. I do not have a Power amp lying around. Indeed was thinking to also have a play with temporary moving the Parasound and the speakers (hmm means should also move the sub because that is also in the mix) to the other room for a day.. maybe during a week holiday end of september... My gut feeling would be the orientatin very likely is going to have to be putting the speakers on the side where the windows are...

 

Notably not too easy to convince myself to spend the dollars either, epsecially with the 'Devils Advocate' (my wife) wispering in my ear .... ?

 

 

if looking for something to buy.. id grab the below at about $1200 au shipped to door. would give you a pre amp upgrade..... looks a near new unit

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Parasound-Halo-P5-preamplifier-2-1-Channel-Hi-End-Preamp-Silver/224124571849?hash=item342edd90c9:g:VnAAAOSwi~9fPfg9

 

might find your B&Ws relocated to other room with parasound pre power (and sub - note the P5 pre comes with sub integration) might be all need to do....can always upgrade the B&Ws when feel like it :)  or add a cheaper and appropriate floor standers in the main room to suit the centre channel there.

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@perthpete i like the direction suggested by @betty boop 

 

And since it's well within your budget you might consider going with a new P6 instead for the extra coin, full warranty etc.  This review (P6 and A21+) had some interesting comments

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/parasound-halo-p6/

 

So around (under) $3000 for a new P6....plus around (over) $1000 for decent floorstanders to 'backfill' for HT duty in the living room....would still leave as much as $9000 available from your stated upper end budget i.e. h e a p s for one or more very capable source components.

 

Wondering what you had in mind for the source component(s) ?

 

 

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On 23/08/2020 at 3:08 PM, betty boop said:

 

if looking for something to buy.. id grab the below at about $1200 au shipped to door. would give you a pre amp upgrade..... looks a near new unit

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Parasound-Halo-P5-preamplifier-2-1-Channel-Hi-End-Preamp-Silver/224124571849?hash=item342edd90c9:g:VnAAAOSwi~9fPfg9

 

might find your B&Ws relocated to other room with parasound pre power (and sub - note the P5 pre comes with sub integration) might be all need to do....can always upgrade the B&Ws when feel like it :)  or add a cheaper and appropriate floor standers in the main room to suit the centre channel there.

 

On 23/08/2020 at 4:20 PM, 2Brix said:

@perthpete i like the direction suggested by @betty boop 

 

And since it's well within your budget you might consider going with a new P6 instead for the extra coin, full warranty etc.  This review (P6 and A21+) had some interesting comments

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/parasound-halo-p6/

 

So around (under) $3000 for a new P6....plus around (over) $1000 for decent floorstanders to 'backfill' for HT duty in the living room....would still leave as much as $9000 available from your stated upper end budget i.e. h e a p s for one or more very capable source components.

 

Wondering what you had in mind for the source component(s) ?

 

 

Let me clarify, I most definitely need/want to keep up the quality in the HT system, so not going to move the mains away from there:-) :-).

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20 minutes ago, perthpete said:

 

Let me clarify, I most definitely need/want to keep up the quality in the HT system, so not going to move the mains away from there:-) :-).

going to be duplicating things then Perth Pete ? to be perfectly honest in a HT system especially where sub employed a floor stander mains can be a touch under-utilised. and even a pair of standmounts with same subwoofer will not see anything in drop off in quality.

 

THE main thing in a ht setup are two things the Centre speaker and subwoofer. can understand if you were combining things and having a 2ch and av setup in one. but otherwise certainly the parasound power amp there would be a bit of overkill.....am just looking at the little centre speaker there... if want to do one thing to improve that i would beef that up many steps up in the B&W range...

 

if staying with above in any case and looking to replicate, then yep be looking at another parasound amp ? and another pair of B&W standmounts ? would then be probably looking at either very top B&W in 7 series or 8 series 804D or 805D and sub.... and needing a decent parasound power amp and pre amp to boot. ....

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food for thought that is for sure betty... this is what is so great about a forum!

 

Meanwhile another alternative for me to consider... (in some future I am going to sit back and try to recall exactly how I got to the final solution once it is here.. :p) the HT setup is also used for decent listening (stereo music OR music DVDs...) and while the A21 may be a little overkill, we both found the B&Ws performing better with it so probably not inclined to take it out of the mix. It is an option though ....

 

The center speaker was bought with the CDM7SEs as well, not quite the same level, they were indeed from the series below. Only reason because the once officially fitting with the 7s would not fit in the cabinet (can you see in the picture it fits in with 1mm to spare?).

 

In relation to pre-amp: would a separate pre-amp (such as the Parasound one) be a big difference in sound quality compared to using the Denon's Receiver (inbuilt) one? Assuming that the intention would be to use the separate pre-amp to connect the main source of my stereo music (Pro-Ject streamer) to, and connect the pre-amp to the  poweramp? where the HT bypass then means Denon is also connected however pre-amp not doing anything (just 'passing through directly to the A21)? Clearly I am not very aware of the pre-amp and HT principle.................    

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46 minutes ago, perthpete said:

The center speaker was bought with the CDM7SEs as well, not quite the same level, they were indeed from the series below. Only reason because the once officially fitting with the 7s would not fit in the cabinet (can you see in the picture it fits in with 1mm to spare?).

the no 1 thing to do here is buy a selby wall mount for the TV... even if its an articulated one bang done ... TV on the wall... clears that top shelf of the rack to fit a decent centre speaker on.... will make a dramatic difference to your AV setup. could go something like 

 

HTm71s2-3 at the very minimum... note the vertically alined tweeter midrange... if had got the centre speaker to match (CDM CNT) your mains it used to have the same :) 

https://klappav.com.au/collections/b-w/products/htm71s2-3-way-centre-channel-speaker

HTM71-Series-2-Black_OFF_1024x1024@2x.jp

 

46 minutes ago, perthpete said:

In relation to pre-amp: would a separate pre-amp (such as the Parasound one) be a big difference in sound quality compared to using the Denon's Receiver (inbuilt) one? Assuming that the intention would be to use the separate pre-amp to connect the main source of my stereo music (Pro-Ject streamer) to, and connect the pre-amp to the  poweramp? where the HT bypass then means Denon is also connected however pre-amp not doing anything (just 'passing through directly to the A21)? Clearly I am not very aware of the pre-amp and HT principle.................    

oh absolutely ! 

 

firstly you feed all 2ch sources through the 2ch pre. you see the denon as an av piece of gear is really setup more for av side of things. and things like dac, analog stage and power supplies and pre amp stage is really not the best for 2ch side. you will note the 2ch parasound  pre amp we linked to has a dac on board and id encourage to hook in the project streamer to it... 

 

IF you utilised the htbypass...

 

THEN

 

in av use the pre amp just bypasses itself and signal goes straight to the power amp

 

in 2ch use... you utilise 2ch source to 2ch pre that connects to 2ch power amp. 

 

however understand you dont want to split the parasound power amp and want to leave it in the av rig. in which case you are going to have to either replicate the parasound power amp and get a 2ch pre  for it or get a 2ch integrated amp of probably similar quality to the parasound. .it is your choice in end what want to do... which way want to go

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@perthpete

 

below kind of thing could potentially pick up, if going B&W EC are a great match, and well priced a top pre like the one below.... and especially if setting up new in the separate room, kind of thing can pick up one item at a time. ps no idea how well mates with parasound if planning to use with the parasound power amp, but clearly it will do well with an EC power....

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Speakers I have listened to so far (and just putting down my thoughts / findings from my not so pro-perspective:-)):

 

Tannoy Kensington Reference. 

Not really speakers I would be looking for in my not so big room.. (look at the size of those speakers..:p), but they had just put them there, being at the final end of a redesign of the shop. The room (listening area) was not even actually treated yet. They were driven by not overly big amps (speakers high sensitivity not needing overly much power), I think they were AUD 1800 Arcam amps.

The sounds was quite impressive, massive soundstage, really good speakers for a large room and if you want to feel like being at a live concert. I found them slightly less warm than B&Ws (my B&Ws anyways). But indeed because of the size of those speakers and the price (would have to stretch the budget a bit just for the speakers) not my choice for sure.

 

Also listened to a pair of bookshelves (new) JBL's HDI 1600, which where driven by a PS Audio Stellar Strata (integrated amp). I have been listening to this set for an hour and half. Pretty good for bookshelves. I did like them, although I think was missing the 'fullness' of sounds that a floorstander will bring. I have to say they sounded much better than I expected from JBL speakers (in my mind very much a disco speakers brand based on the past). I am not a big fan of the looks of them however a little shiny / plastic look. I did also find while they are designed in the US, they are produced in China which was very fitting with the looks (to my eyes that is). 

In the same store I listened to a pair of Martin Logans ESL-X. These were driven by a Cary Audio CAD300B (which is what the sales manager wrote on the card, however not seeing this type on Cary Audio website.. so not sure if it was not actually the CAD300SEI) I have heard electrostats before (years ago), but found this combination not really grabbing me. The sound was good, but especially with some high notes a bit harsh. Not sure if that was because of the amp (tube amp of 10k producing only 15 watts) OR as the sales guy said just could be the actual recording (problem with revealing system is you hear any recording issues as well:-)). So, I might have to have a listen to some ML's driven by a different amp as well to understand (hear) the difference with that.

 

Another shop I started listening to the latest Marantz integrated stereo streamer amp (for the live of me I cannot call the model/type, but it would have been a very recent model - note to myself: make better notes!!), which had some Golden Ear BRXbookshelves. A very nice combination. Something different with the ribbon tweeters... very nice and open sounds. I spend some time listening to that combo, then had B&W bookshelves (606 series I think) connected to the Marantz. I definitely felt a preference for the B&W. Obviously a little more expensive than the Golden Ears, but I am guessing - after 20+ years of listening to B&Ws you do get a little pre-conditioned for B&Ws. 

Then I listened to a set of Golden Ear triton 2+ driven by Cambridge Audio Amp. Quite impressed with the Tritons, although with some songs (specific one: Autumn Leaves by Mikaela Kahn, Album 'Voices of Love') I found it sounding a little harsh again. Not sure if that is / was the speakers or the CA Amp (or very possibly the recording of course). 

 

Altogether very clear I am not at all settled on what I really want. What I have taken out of these listening sessions so far though is I do seem to have a clear preference for floorstander / fuller sound. 

Future listening sessions that I want to do in the coming weeks is listening to B&W 702 Signatures maybe also comparing if possible to 804's (although 804s probably too much over the top for the room). And then also planning a visit to another shop for some entirely different brands too. 

Hoping that in maybe a month or 2 I have a narrowed down vision of which speakers I would want to consider. Then some more auditioning for the right pre/power amplifier combo. 

 

And (dare I say this) also cannot yet rule out considering the option as suggested earlier in this post to 'just' do some upgrade of our existing system (i.e. adding a pre-amp for pure stereo listening). the future will tell ... :-). 

 

(Sorry for the long story here, if too long, sort of pointing the blame to @2Brix for reminding me to - try and - write my experiences down ??)

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Thanks for sharing..

If I read you correctly, you want scale in your stereo listening, perhaps neutral or a tad on the warm side of neutral?

I will suggest a combination of Dynaudio and Marantz.

See if the new Model 30 is in your budget and add a pair of Dynaudio Contours 30, or Emits if the budget is smaller and see how you go.

Or the Special 40s on good stands. I use them in a room a bit larger than yours for critical listening and when I upgrade the components, they go one level higher.

I'll suggests avoid B&W Diamonds or Monitor Audio Golds and such if you dislike a prominent treble. But that's just me :)

Rotel is another nice brand to combine with Dynaudios or also try the Spendors for a good time :) 

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8 hours ago, perthpete said:

Speakers I have listened to so far (and just putting down my thoughts / findings from my not so pro-perspective:-)):

 

Tannoy Kensington Reference. 

Not really speakers I would be looking for in my not so big room.. (look at the size of those speakers..:p), but they had just put them there, being at the final end of a redesign of the shop. The room (listening area) was not even actually treated yet. They were driven by not overly big amps (speakers high sensitivity not needing overly much power), I think they were AUD 1800 Arcam amps.

The sounds was quite impressive, massive soundstage, really good speakers for a large room and if you want to feel like being at a live concert. I found them slightly less warm than B&Ws (my B&Ws anyways). But indeed because of the size of those speakers and the price (would have to stretch the budget a bit just for the speakers) not my choice for sure.

 

Also listened to a pair of bookshelves (new) JBL's HDI 1600, which where driven by a PS Audio Stellar Strata (integrated amp). I have been listening to this set for an hour and half. Pretty good for bookshelves. I did like them, although I think was missing the 'fullness' of sounds that a floorstander will bring. I have to say they sounded much better than I expected from JBL speakers (in my mind very much a disco speakers brand based on the past). I am not a big fan of the looks of them however a little shiny / plastic look. I did also find while they are designed in the US, they are produced in China which was very fitting with the looks (to my eyes that is). 

In the same store I listened to a pair of Martin Logans ESL-X. These were driven by a Cary Audio CAD300B (which is what the sales manager wrote on the card, however not seeing this type on Cary Audio website.. so not sure if it was not actually the CAD300SEI) I have heard electrostats before (years ago), but found this combination not really grabbing me. The sound was good, but especially with some high notes a bit harsh. Not sure if that was because of the amp (tube amp of 10k producing only 15 watts) OR as the sales guy said just could be the actual recording (problem with revealing system is you hear any recording issues as well:-)). So, I might have to have a listen to some ML's driven by a different amp as well to understand (hear) the difference with that.

 

Another shop I started listening to the latest Marantz integrated stereo streamer amp (for the live of me I cannot call the model/type, but it would have been a very recent model - note to myself: make better notes!!), which had some Golden Ear BRXbookshelves. A very nice combination. Something different with the ribbon tweeters... very nice and open sounds. I spend some time listening to that combo, then had B&W bookshelves (606 series I think) connected to the Marantz. I definitely felt a preference for the B&W. Obviously a little more expensive than the Golden Ears, but I am guessing - after 20+ years of listening to B&Ws you do get a little pre-conditioned for B&Ws. 

Then I listened to a set of Golden Ear triton 2+ driven by Cambridge Audio Amp. Quite impressed with the Tritons, although with some songs (specific one: Autumn Leaves by Mikaela Kahn, Album 'Voices of Love') I found it sounding a little harsh again. Not sure if that is / was the speakers or the CA Amp (or very possibly the recording of course). 

 

Altogether very clear I am not at all settled on what I really want. What I have taken out of these listening sessions so far though is I do seem to have a clear preference for floorstander / fuller sound. 

Future listening sessions that I want to do in the coming weeks is listening to B&W 702 Signatures maybe also comparing if possible to 804's (although 804s probably too much over the top for the room). And then also planning a visit to another shop for some entirely different brands too. 

Hoping that in maybe a month or 2 I have a narrowed down vision of which speakers I would want to consider. Then some more auditioning for the right pre/power amplifier combo. 

 

And (dare I say this) also cannot yet rule out considering the option as suggested earlier in this post to 'just' do some upgrade of our existing system (i.e. adding a pre-amp for pure stereo listening). the future will tell ... :-). 

 

(Sorry for the long story here, if too long, sort of pointing the blame to @2Brix for reminding me to - try and - write my experiences down ??)

Hello perthpete.

 

Not wanting to do any of the stores where you have auditioned out of a potential sale, but, because you listened to some Martin Logan ESLs, there is a pair of Martin Logans advertised in the Classifieds, by "Smp",  in Perth.

 

At time of my writing this, they are on page 3 (towards the bottom of the page).

Hardly used, great saving off the new price, and you can audition. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok, one more store visited and spent a few hours listening to some 'combos'...(will try to keep it a little shorter this time:

 

I've listened to (compared these amps with these mentioned speakers):

AMPs:

Line Magnetic LM-805IA (yes, tube amp!) & Hegel H190

 

Speakers:

Spendor 7.2; Wharfdale Linton 85th Heritage; Paradigm Prestige 95F

 

Listened without knowing prices beforehand btw. 

Purely based on listening pleasure (which is key) in a mix&match of the above amps and speakers I do find the LM a fair bit nicer sound. And of the above mentioned speakers would prefer the Paradigms.

Having said that - after hearing the prices of the speakers - have to give kudo's to those Wharfdales. about 1/3-ish of the price of the Spendors and just under half of the Paradigms definitely punching above their weight. 

 

Discovering Tube Amp (i think this may have been the very first time ever having listened to a tube amp btw) is making me a little 'confused', that is to say, having to now consider listening to more 'options' most likely ... and needing to reconsider some preconceptions I guess...

Questions such as: 

- Am I going to regret tube amp later if I (if ever) change speakers to ones that are hard to drive?

- Is there still a risk of 'under powering' (yes high current, but low - relatively - power of 2x48W- although full class A)?

- How long are tubes going to last in real world figures.. i know the main ones are 'specced' as 5000 hours, but it is rare for any product to live up to specs in real life right?

 

Then about the speakers also a question, I read (later, back home) those paradigms are 2.5 way speakers (not 3). I did not think it was an issue based on what I was hearing, just wondering though if there are any negatives on that?

 

Biggest surprise out of these 3 speakers was to hear that the Spendors were the most expensive. I would have thought (based on listening experience) that the Spendors would have been the 'cheapest' of these 3... BTW - Initially I enjoyed the Wharfdales as much as the paradigms. Untill I played a classical piano piece with lots of high tone keys used.. the Wharfdales (even with the LM) those high tones were a little... less pleasant to the ears. No problem at with the Paradigms.

 

Oh and after a few hours of playing around with these combinations, we did have a little listen to the big Wharfdales (Elysian) run on a bigger brother of the LM 805 (that is dollar wise, not power) and while I was preparing to be traveling above the clouds... that combination did not really impress - given the price difference that is. Not sure if that was because it was in a separate room or that I was just getting a little 'numb' after some hours of concentrated listening...?

Oh and - just for the heck of it - also listened a few minutes to a (set up in shop floor, not a separate / closed off room) set of - i think - Dynaudios driven by a Hegel 590.. I could appreciate the Hegel (silent was dead silent, every sound was extremely accurate / precise.. However given that is at a cost of my entire intended budget.. so that did mean I was able to let it go after a few minutes ...  

 

Anyway, clearly not too much closer to a solution, actually widened the scope for future listening sessions (tubes ... yes ..no...yes.. don't know :p)

 

Most definitely want to have a listen - in the near future - to B&W 702 S2 Signatures, and possibly (if possible a/b test with there bigger brothers/cousins 804D3's) too ... and get some more 'listen experience' to one or two more tube amps...

 

As they say, the journey is important .. the destination will show up when it is ready .... :>:>

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a similar sized room with a nasty null at 80hz right at my listening position. Have had a variety of speakers and found rear ported designs trouble some in my space. I find PMC with their ATL bass loading work well in my space.  I also use a sub which is more for evening out the room response then supply additional SPL

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 24/09/2020 at 5:46 PM, perthpete said:

Line Magnetic LM-805IA (yes, tube amp!)

I choose the LM-150IA over the LM-805IA. Both are great amps and cost the same. It would boil down to your speakers. I started my tube journey with an LM-88IA. 

 

Do share your update once you buy. I have documented my journey in my post. Do check it out. 

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@perthpete although slightly northwards of your OP budget, you might have noticed the Jamo R909 in the classifieds...nearby too so you might be able to audition...reeckon those would be lovely with a quality Class A biased amp (glass or SS). 

 

Also very tempting the SGR actives listed by Yamaha Man, a very nice option with quality bespoke amplification built-in...except that audition challenging/not practical at this time but a well regarded product.

 

Cheers

Ticc 

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