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Am I getting lossless atmos ( HDMI ARC) question


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Hi,
I’m a bit confused about this now, because I’ve gotten different answers.

 

 
I am using the HDMI arc connection ( it’s the only HDMI out) (Denon avr-x1600h) connected to the HDMI arc on my tv ( Panasonic fz950 OLED  (which is full bandwidth)

 

I have my 4K blu ray player and PS4 Pro connected to my avr HDMI ports.
 

 

When I’m playing a 4K movie with Atmos on my blu-ray player, am I getting it down-converted to something lower quality, or full lossless atmos?

I understand that playing something from my tv, eg the Netflix app, I wont be able to get Atmos.

 

 Eg;

 

When playing a movie with atmos connected to the  HDMI ARC port of my tv, my AVR says Dolby Atmos – True HD.

 

Now when playing it on the HDMI non arc port, it says the say thing, Dolby Atmos -True HD.

 

 Everything sounds the same.

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How are your speakers set up? 7.X or 5.X.2?

 

Atmos signals are contained within the Dolby True HD bitstream. How your AVR treats them depends on its capabilities and your speaker set up.

 

If you have Atmos speakers, the overhead sounds will be decoded and directed there. If not, overhead signals will be sent to your surround speakers.

 

 

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I have a 5.1 setup, and you’re right, overhead sounds will be directed to the rear channels.

 

 But that wasn’t what I wanted to know.

 

 My question is,  how I described my setup in the opening post, am I getting lossless  atmos or lossy ( compressed) audio.

 

 My AVR says Dolby True HD Atmos when I press info on my avr remote. So I’m assuming it’s lossless.

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14 minutes ago, flipswitch said:

I have a 5.1 setup, and you’re right, overhead sounds will be directed to the rear channels.

 

 But that wasn’t what I wanted to know.

 

 My question is,  how I described my setup in the opening post, am I getting lossless  atmos or lossy ( compressed) audio.

 

 My AVR says Dolby True HD Atmos when I press info on my avr remote. So I’m assuming it’s lossless.

Yes it will be lossless when sourced from a disc with a lossless soundtrack e.g. Dolby True HD. Lossy soundtracks will appear as something like Dolby Digital.

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Not quite true.

 

compressed Atmos from Netflix or Disney+ or Amazon Prime or the Apple Store will appear as "Dolby Atmos" on the receiver as well.

Edited by Lil Caesar
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Ok. Even though I’m using the HDMI arc port on my tv? ( this is the bit that’s confusing me, because I read that HDMI ARC cannot do atmos or any lossless audio)

 

 but that’s only when playing something though the tv like the Netflix app I think. 

Edited by flipswitch
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1 minute ago, thathifiguy said:

If you are using external sources, why are you bothering with HDMI ARC at all?

I use the Netflix app on my tv because through Netflix on PS4 it always activates HDR even during SD content.

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OK not sure you can actually verify this in any way BUT it should be lossless Atmos coming thru 'cos a 2018 set would not have any way to "compress Atmos".

Lossy / VBR Atmos is a 2019 development pioneered by the streaming services, which I believe just places the compressed datastream in a "container" which HDMI / AVR knows is to be decoded as Atmos.

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1 minute ago, Lil Caesar said:

OK not sure you can actually verify this in any way BUT it should be lossless Atmos coming thru 'cos a 2018 set would not have any way to "compress Atmos".

Lossy / VBR Atmos is a 2019 development pioneered by the streaming services, which I believe just places the compressed datastream in a "container" which HDMI / AVR knows is to be decoded as Atmos.

Your on money !

 

my bet ... telly won’t allow atmos back via arc

 

inwhich case better to use also external source for Netflix eg appletv which does better than ps4 with things like sdr/hdr to suit set

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1 minute ago, betty boop said:

inwhich case better to use also external source for Netflix eg appletv which does better than ps4 with things like sdr/hdr to suit set

I don’t care about Netflix not being in atmos :). I’m only worrying about my 4K Blu-Ray player not playing lossless atmos ;).

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13 minutes ago, flipswitch said:

I don’t care about Netflix not being in atmos :). I’m only worrying about my 4K Blu-Ray player not playing lossless atmos ;).

with sources like 4k Blu-ray connected directly to age should not be using arc as source for that. Look at your hdmi assignment :) refer that hifi guy note above 

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I am puzzled?   Can you hear it the difference between lossless and not???  Why worry about it when there are things which impact the sound more.  The AVR and your speakers and particularly the room will have a far, far bigger influence on the sound quality.

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So in summary. Avoid using ARC on tv, buy external device such as Apple TV for Netflix, etc.  This will avoid any issues regarding lossless audio or not on 4K BR, because I’m not using ARC. :)

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24 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I am puzzled?   Can you hear it the difference between lossless and not???  Why worry about it when there are things which impact the sound more.  The AVR and your speakers and particularly the room will have a far, far bigger influence on the sound quality.

id feel restricted if not getting atmos etc from disc source on my system ... that id consider a big loss :D 

 

15 minutes ago, flipswitch said:

So in summary. Avoid using ARC on tv, buy external device such as Apple TV for Netflix, etc.  This will avoid any issues regarding lossless audio or not on 4K BR, because I’m not using ARC. :)

if you have external sources eg 4k uhd player... you shouldn't be able setup so indeed do get atmos from that source. only one impacted would be telly which would rely on arc ?  unless arc on telly is somehow impacting other sources as well ?

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1 minute ago, betty boop said:

so indeed do get atmos from that source. only one impacted would be telly which would rely on arc ?  unless arc on telly is somehow impacting other sources as well ?

That’s what I think, but then someone says something different! So I’m still unsure. :)

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Just now, flipswitch said:

That’s what I think, but then someone says something different! So I’m still unsure. :)

well its really easy to check just hit info button on the avr or look at the display on avr will show you whats incoming and whats outgoing..... will makes sure with 4k uhd when its playing you are getting the full deal... and also see whats happening with telly as source feeding back over arc...

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50 minutes ago, betty boop said:

well its really easy to check just hit info button on the avr or look at the display on avr will show you whats incoming and whats outgoing..... will makes sure with 4k uhd when its playing you are getting the full deal... and also see whats happening with telly as source feeding back over arc...

I have done that. When playing a movie with atmos connected to the  HDMI ARC port of my tv, my AVR says source Dolby Atmos – True HD when I choose info on my AVR

 

”Sound - Dolby Atmos

Signal - Dolby Atmos - TrueHD.”

 

Now when playing it on the HDMI non arc port, it says the same thing, source  Dolby Atmos -True HD..

 

https://community.cedia.net/blogs/david-meyer/2018/06/25/dolby-atmos-over-hdmi-arc

 

Quote

In summary, a basic, lower resolution form of Dolby Atmos may work through existing HDMI ARC, but it is highly system and link dependent. This is why we tend to generalise that ARC doesn't support Atmos, as it's out of spec and can't be relied upon. If you are designing this capability into systems, sticking with proven product combinations and short connectivity can give your systems an edge until eARC comes along and opens up our options.
 


Hmm...

Edited by flipswitch
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57 minutes ago, flipswitch said:

Now when playing it on the HDMI non arc port, it says the same thing, source  Dolby Atmos -True HD.

well thats good then and answered in that case ....

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I think I have found the answer!

 

Quote

ARC stands for Audio Return Channel, which basically means it uses the same wire that sends video from the AVR to the TV to send audio back from the TV to the AVR. Nothing more.

The only job ARC does is between the AVR and the TV. Everything else that connects directly to the AVR works as is, lossless audio included, no limitation.

eARC is only needed to send lossless audio from the TV (or devices connected to the TV) to the AVR. So without eARC if you play a file on the TV with lossless audio it cannot be sent to the AVR as is, only the lossy core will be sent.
 

So since I have my 4K blu ray player and PS4 Pro connected directly to my AVR, I’m getting lossless Atmos audio.


OT,  I looked at my profile page and it shows I joined in 2005. And I’m thinking I don’t remember joining this forum all those years ago. Then it came to me. This used to be dtvinfo forum!

 

Edited by flipswitch
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In summary - my understanding ...

 

Atmos is channel metadata attached to:
1. Dolby Digital TrueHD - uncompressed (lossless)
2. Dolby Digital Plus - compressed

 

eARC - can pass Atmos TrueHD
ARC - can only pass (up to) Atmos DD+

 

Your AVR handles (up to) Atmos /  TrueHD / eARC
Your TV only has ARC so will only carry (up to) Atmos DD+

 

Furthermore - Netflix only distributes Atmos as DD+

(Begs the question - Why does your AVR report TrueHD from TV/Netflix? Do you have that as a hard set output mode on the AVR? I see it's not of great importance to you anyway.)

 

You will get full Atmos TrueHD from capable BluRay direct to your AVR (over HDMI).

 

The simplest overview I've  seen is from Digital Trends.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/dolby-atmos

 


 

Edited by ShellstaX
fix typo
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10 hours ago, ShellstaX said:

Why does your AVR report TrueHD from TV/Netflix?

Sorry, is this question directed at me, if so, I have never played any content through my tv, such as Netflix that showed Dolby Atmos reporting as True HD.

 

Only my blu ray player shows that. :)

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