Ethernet cables for audio - Part A: List of cables, related info & experiences

[davewantsmoore]

On 27/07/2020 at 6:49 PM, dbastin said:

And as I understand, nbn does not need modem.

Unless you have FTTC, where you get an NBN supplied modem.... or unless you have FTTN, where your modem could be a standalone modem, or integrated into a modem/router.

[Ray H]

New Cable: Nordost Heimdal 2 Ethernet.

Connected upstream to: Kii 3 Control, AURALiC Aries G2.1 and Curious Evolved USB,

Upgraded from: DH Labs Reunion.

Switch: N/ A.

Other downstream: Kii 3 and BXT active speaker system.

Other cables you considered: None really.

Reason for your choice: Past experience with Nordost cables, including interconnect, power and loudspeaker cables. Also swayed by the Aug discount on the Nordost digital cables.

Links to info about the new cable: https://www.frankprowsehifi.com.au/product/nordost-heimdall-2-ethernet

Your comments/observations: I purchased 1 x 2m and 1 x 4m cables for my system. TBH, I was surprised initially that the DH Labs made so much difference to my system (previously posted in this thread on the DH Labs). To preface my findings, I recently purchased the AURALiC Aries G2.1 streamer. I have found the AURALiC to be pretty revelatory for me, the only slight reservation was in a reduction of bass. I was hoping that it may be improved by break-in, but had not noticed much change over the first 20 hrs or so.

 

So what is the difference ?; the Nordost first of all sounds a little louder. It also sounds significantly bigger in soundstage; wider but more significantly deeper soundstage, ie more forward projection (immersive). The bass is also significantly better, so much so it has mitigated my doubts with regards the Auralic’s bass. The cable also makes the music more addictive, ie I was listening to a couple of albums all the way through where I would normally only listen to my favourite few tracks and move on.

 

i think this product came with a bottle of Kool Aid and I drank it unknowingly at some point..
 

[Assisi]

On 30/07/2020 at 9:50 PM, Assisi said:

The two cables are put together in Audio business in Melbourne and are Acoustic Revive with Telegartener plugs

I am not sure but I may have mentioned somewhere with the two wonder Ethernet cables that I had received recently that I had ordered another four.  I had to wait awhile as the first cable lot was all sold out very quickly as word spread.  The four arrived today with an additional 5^th.

 

The extra was for an internal connection in the Weiss Man 301 network streamer.  It was to connect the network socket on the back to a board in side.  I started with that first.  Immediate noticeable benefit.  Then I next connected two short links from a Bonn N8 to the other Bonn N8 and then to connect that switch to the Paul Pang Quad.  More benefit.

 

The next were the two longer cables to connect the ROON core and the Uniti Core to the first Bonn N8.  Another beneficial outcome 

 

All the network cables that I call SG network cable in my system are now the same.  They are magic.  The result is just a wonderful smoothness, full yet detailed playback.  Treble, mid, bass, noise floor reduction etc are all improved.  You may think that I am delusional but I can assure you I am not.  I am just ecstatic and enthralled with such an unexpected yet serious outcome.  I should have spent all day in my garden on such a beautiful day but I was inside much of the time as I could not stop listening.  It was just so addictive. 

One thing I do expect though that as these cables settle in there will be additional improvement.

John

[Assisi]

Since I posted my comments above about the cables, I have been thinking.  To me everything little thing in the audio chain matters.  There are some on SNA who in the context of digital consider that the DAC is paramount.  The source is to some maybe less important.  Well today has shown to me that the source is fundamental.  The network switches, cables, NAS, Roon Core, network player and DSP box for me are all before the anything gets to the DAC.  My DAC is connected XLR.  So It is not even part of the network or USB.

So, as I improve all the bits in what I consider to be the source the final result benefits.  Everything matters.

My ROON Core is my weak link, I think.  Work in progress.

John

[dbastin]

20 minutes ago, Assisi said:

My ROON Core is my weak link, I think.  Work in progress.

Hmm, as an aside - you may wish to follow the Antipodes Owners thread, which recently started discussing this new range ...

https://antipodes.audio/

 

Antipodes have their ethernet ports mounted directly to the motherboard - eliminates the influence of internal cables.  And direct out ethernet is very quiet indeed!

 

There is no doubt in my mind the server makes a big difference, even the version of software can be noticed.

 

The next frontier is SATA cables - I have an Audience Hidden Treasure SATA enroute.  But that is another subject.

[Assisi]

9 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Hmm, as an aside - you may wish to follow the Antipodes Owners thread, which recently started discussing this new range ...

https://antipodes.audio/

I am aware of the latest offerings from Antipodes.  I had an Antipodes DX for some years and I was extremely pleased with it whilst I had it.  The service from Tony was exemplary.  I have moved on though.   Weiss design and make very serious product.

John

 

[ikhuong]

13 hours ago, Ray H said:

New Cable: Nordost Heimdal 2 Ethernet.

Connected upstream to: Kii 3 Control, AURALiC Aries G2.1 and Curious Evolved USB,

Upgraded from: DH Labs Reunion.

Switch: N/ A.

Other downstream: Kii 3 and BXT active speaker system.

Other cables you considered: None really.

Reason for your choice: Past experience with Nordost cables, including interconnect, power and loudspeaker cables. Also swayed by the Aug discount on the Nordost digital cables.

Links to info about the new cable: https://www.frankprowsehifi.com.au/product/nordost-heimdall-2-ethernet

Your comments/observations: I purchased 1 x 2m and 1 x 4m cables for my system. TBH, I was surprised initially that the DH Labs made so much difference to my system (previously posted in this thread on the DH Labs). To preface my findings, I recently purchased the AURALiC Aries G2.1 streamer. I have found the AURALiC to be pretty revelatory for me, the only slight reservation was in a reduction of bass. I was hoping that it may be improved by break-in, but had not noticed much change over the first 20 hrs or so.

 

So what is the difference ?; the Nordost first of all sounds a little louder. It also sounds significantly bigger in soundstage; wider but more significantly deeper soundstage, ie more forward projection (immersive). The bass is also significantly better, so much so it has mitigated my doubts with regards the Auralic’s bass. The cable also makes the music more addictive, ie I was listening to a couple of albums all the way through where I would normally only listen to my favourite few tracks and move on.

 

i think this product came with a bottle of Kool Aid and I drank it unknowingly at some point..
 

Good that you have found positive improvement, I am waiting my Nordost Heimdal 2 as well, my EtherRegen has added noticeable improvement.

Hopefully the last mile Ethernet connection to my MSB DAC will finish my tweaking desire except a thinking of a second EtherRegen or Sonore OpicalModule on another end of the fiber cable.

[ikhuong]

12 hours ago, dbastin said:

Hmm, as an aside - you may wish to follow the Antipodes Owners thread, which recently started discussing this new range ...

https://antipodes.audio/

 

Antipodes have their ethernet ports mounted directly to the motherboard - eliminates the influence of internal cables.  And direct out ethernet is very quiet indeed!

 

There is no doubt in my mind the server makes a big difference, even the version of software can be noticed.

 

The next frontier is SATA cables - I have an Audience Hidden Treasure SATA enroute.  But that is another subject.

This might make sense with recent technical paper from John Swenson that called "Jitter carried through digital data"

If the source where packages are generated and sent have a great clock, it will improve "Jitter carried through digital data", so this is the secret sauce why Antipode servers and a few other hiend music severs help Renderer to sound better (assuming we hook transporter directly to server's dedicated downstream ethernet port, or connect everything via an "audiophile design" network switch and hiend Ethernet cables

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

14 hours ago, Assisi said:

Since I posted my comments above about the cables, I have been thinking.  To me everything little thing in the audio chain matters. 

 

All jitter effects.

 

Still advocate for optical to your audio equipment network, and reclock from there.

 

Ultimately costs less and is more technically robust.

Edited September 2, 2020 by rmpfyf

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 hours ago, ikhuong said:

This might make sense with recent technical paper from John Swenson that called "Jitter carried through digital data"

If the source where packages are generated and sent have a great clock, it will improve "Jitter carried through digital data", so this is the secret sauce why Antipode servers and a few other hiend music severs help Renderer to sound better (assuming we hook transporter directly to server's dedicated downstream ethernet port, or connect everything via an "audiophile design" network switch and hiend Ethernet cables

 

 

He's got a note with respect to fibre interfaces:

 

"In the case of a pure optical input (zero metal connection), this does block leakage current, but it does not block phase-noise affects. The optical connection is like any other isolator: jitter on the input is transmitted down the fiber and shows up at the receiver. If the receiver reclocks the data with a local clock, you still have the effects of the ground plane-noise from the data causing threshold changes on the reclocking circuit, thus overlaying on top of the local clock."

 

Would suggest that's not quite correct - certainly it's very much down to implementation. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by rmpfyf

[ikhuong]

4 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

He's got a note with respect to fibre interfaces:

 

"In the case of a pure optical input (zero metal connection), this does block leakage current, but it does not block phase-noise affects. The optical connection is like any other isolator: jitter on the input is transmitted down the fiber and shows up at the receiver. If the receiver reclocks the data with a local clock, you still have the effects of the ground plane-noise from the data causing threshold changes on the reclocking circuit, thus overlaying on top of the local clock."

 

Would suggest that's not quite correct - certainly it's very much down to implementation. 

Can you illustrate more in technical terms? I am still in the process to consume those  "Jitter carried through digital data" and want to know more.

Thanks,

[notchasingrainbows]

5 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

He's got a note with respect to fibre interfaces:

 

"In the case of a pure optical input (zero metal connection), this does block leakage current, but it does not block phase-noise affects. The optical connection is like any other isolator: jitter on the input is transmitted down the fiber and shows up at the receiver. If the receiver reclocks the data with a local clock, you still have the effects of the ground plane-noise from the data causing threshold changes on the reclocking circuit, thus overlaying on top of the local clock."

 

Would suggest that's not quite correct - certainly it's very much down to implementation. 

So what needs to be implemented on the receiving end? Using battery powered power supply? 

[Guest rmpfyf]

50 minutes ago, ikhuong said:

Can you illustrate more in technical terms? I am still in the process to consume those  "Jitter carried through digital data" and want to know more.

Thanks,

 

Swenson's paper literally reads "you need to do a very robust job of 'stopping and reclocking' to make a difference". This is correct. 

 

With respect to optical so long as you do the same at the receive end, you are fine. There's just a good bit less interference conducted along or gained along a length of optical cable. 

 

1 hour ago, notchasingrainbow said:

So what needs to be implemented on the receiving end? Using battery powered power supply? 

 

Robust buffering, reclocking. Part of which involves suitable power though battery powered isn't necessary required. If the cable and receiver are good enough not ensure state transitions on the cable are repeated faithfully as not to induce spurious timing, then you simply need as much on the sending side. For all the work done here on you-beaut wired ethernet switches, your really want a fully-optical connection from a sorted switch to an edge device receiving minimum packet..

 

Converting back to wired comms after optical degrades things. Ideally you've something that can take optical in. That's a gap for most IMHO.

[mr_gray]

the sigma ethernet has proved itself essential in my system.  now they have released an Omega.  it is too expensive for me to have a go at right now, being $4.5k.  who is having a crack?  i do need another ethernet cable to link a 2 box antipodes (CX and EX).  using DH labs right now.  i've no doubt even an upgrade to venom will sound great so i might just do that.  keep things sensible for a change

 

 

[Whites]

On 01/09/2020 at 9:12 PM, Assisi said:

I am not sure but I may have mentioned somewhere with the two wonder Ethernet cables that I had received recently that I had ordered another four.  I had to wait awhile as the first cable lot was all sold out very quickly as word spread.  The four arrived today with an additional 5^th.

 

 

@Assisi Thanks for posting about the Acoustic revive cable. Currently using one between Antipodes CX & EX, it's still running in.

 

I bought mine off ebay, paid for the DHL delivery and delivered  a few days later.

 

I was using an Audioquest Vodka, still too early to call which one is better to my ears, but I will say that the Acoustic Revive is a bargain at the price point and initially pleasantly surprised straight away as soon as I plugged it in.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Whites
Minor.

[Assisi]

12 hours ago, Whites said:

@Assisi Thanks for posting about the Acoustic revive cable. Currently using one between Antipodes CX & EX, it's still running in.

 

I bought mine off ebay, paid for the DHL delivery and delivered  a few days later.

 

I was using an Audioquest Vodka, still too early to call which one is better to my ears, but I will say that the Acoustic Revive is a bargain at the price point and initially pleasantly surprised straight away as soon as I plugged it in.

 

 

@Whites,

The Cables that I have are assembled in Melbourne from imported bulk cable and Telegartner plugs.  The Ebay product all seems to be assembled in Japan.  A quick look on Ebay shows two levels of cable.  One is double the cost per metre compared to the other.  The more expensive cable has Telegartner ends.  Which one did you buy? 

I consider that all good cables take a period to settle in.

John

[Whites]

@Assisi Hi John, I bought the cheaper one, that's annoying, saw the red cable cable you described so thought that was it.

 

I didn't read your original post carefully, assumed they were importing from Japan but couldn't see them anywhere for sale in Aus.

 

Am I correct that the telegartner plugs are the same as on the Audioquest Vodka that I own? If yes, they are a substantial plug.

 

Chris

[dayday]

@Assisi

I see you are using the Silent Angel Rhein Z1 as a Roon core.

 

what's your verdict on that compare to say Antipodes/ any other Roon servers u hv tried?  

did u add a LPS to it too?

[Assisi]

3 hours ago, dayday said:

I see you are using the Silent Angel Rhein Z1 as a Roon core.

 

what's your verdict on that compare to say Antipodes/ any other Roon servers u hv tried?  

did u add a LPS to it too?

@dayday

 

You noticed the change in my Signature.  I changed my Signature last night as the Rhein Z1 only came yesterday morning.  Firstly, it is a seriously impressive component.  The SQ was bigger, more solid and lower noise floor.  Wonderful.  I have made many changes/improvement to my system over the past few months.  I had reached a stage where I thought that there was no more blood in the stone to be extracted.  With the Rhein Z1 I discovered that there was more left than I expected.

 

 

My first Roon Core was on an Antipodes DX.  At the time it was fine.  I cannot comment at all on the later Antipodes products.  I would expect they would provide a great income.  I moved from Antipodes as I acquired a Weiss Man301.  It does not do Roon Core.  So, I acquired a RIPNas.  It was good but not great.

 

 

I prefer Roon as product and use it probably 90% of the time.  Playing through the MAN301 is definitely superior.  I rarely play through the MAN301 because the control application is not as user friendly as Roon.  If I want to listen to the best quality outcome from my system then it has to be the MAN301.

 

 

The quality of playback from the Rhein is closer to that of the MAN301.  This is very pleasing.  Over the last 30 hours it is become even better than at the start.  I expect that the settling in will take approximately a week.  Hopefully more pleasure to come.

 

 

One RheinZ1 was brought into Australia to test it.  On the basis of the test results, stock was ordered.  I am told that some people compared it to a Roon Nucleus+.  The verdict was a preference for the Rhein which costs less than the Roon Nucleus+.  It also looks very pleasing to the eye.

 

 

I do not have a 12V LPS.  I will consider one later on.

 

There is or was stock in Melbourne.

 

John

Edited September 10, 2020 by Assisi

[dayday]

thanks for the feedback.

 

never heard of the Rhein Z1 until I realised it's made by the same guys as the Bonn N8 switches. And it makes the Nucleus look overpriced.

 

interesting that it has comparable SQ to the Antipodes DX which costs more. But not sure how much further the new series Antipodes have moved the goal posts.

 

keep us updated after the burn in. 

[Guest rmpfyf]

On 10/09/2020 at 6:31 PM, Assisi said:

One RheinZ1 was brought into Australia to test it.  On the basis of the test results, stock was ordered.  I am told that some people compared it to a Roon Nucleus+.  The verdict was a preference for the Rhein which costs less than the Roon Nucleus+.  It also looks very pleasing to the eye.

 

Interesting machine. 

 

Seems to be a usual OEM Intel 6W SOC nano/mini ITX motherboard with the audio section and legacy video outputs depopulated, a Pico power supply, low-voltage (DDR3L) RAM. Nothing particularly special about it. Surprised they're not using PCIe on their motherboard for a dedicated USB output. 

 

Shame the WA crew here didn't turn their development into a shipping product, I think they'd have slayed the market somewhat. 

[Assisi]

4 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Interesting machine. 

 

Seems to be a usual OEM Intel 6W SOC nano/mini ITX motherboard with the audio section and legacy video outputs depopulated, a Pico power supply, low-voltage (DDR3L) RAM. Nothing particularly special about it. Surprised they're not using PCIe on their motherboard for a dedicated USB output.

@rmpfyf,

From a technical perspective it might only just be interesting and nothing special.  Probably many people could build the relative equivalent.  To get the special ingredient outcome is another thing though.  The Z1 designers/manufacturers have done some important things for example such as the case and the Vitos OS was specially written for it.   Its performance reputedly exceeds that of Roon Nucleus + which costs noticeably more.

 

From a performance perspective it is absolutely wonderful.  It is getting better each day.

 

So many things have happened system wise for me recently.   Speakers, switches and cables.  This is component is the total icing on the cake.  I should be doing other things but I cannot stop listening.  Even low quality recordings now come alive and are engaging. 

 

John

[Guest rmpfyf]

5 minutes ago, Assisi said:

@rmpfyf,

From a technical perspective it might only just be interesting and nothing special.  Probably many people could build the relative equivalent.  To get the special ingredient outcome is another thing though.  The Z1 designers/manufacturers have done some important things for example such as the case and the Vitos OS was specially written for it.   Its performance reputedly exceeds that of Roon Nucleus + which costs noticeably more.

 

From a performance perspective it is absolutely wonderful.  It is getting better each day.

 

So many things have happened system wise for me recently.   Speakers, switches and cables.  This is component is the total icing on the cake.  I should be doing other things but I cannot stop listening.  Even low quality recordings now come alive and are engaging. 

 

John

 

Those outcomes - a 'special ingredient' are a function of a technical effort, are measurable and are replicable. 

 

The case isn't particularly notable - easy enough to come by something similar or manufacture - and the OS a similar effort. 

 

I find it interesting as there's a significant tradeoff as to whether one builds a PC with a wide pipeline (a 'big' CPU that can do many things at once) or a more limited pipeline (a 'small' CPU) with a more limited pipeline but with considerably less power consumption. The two most significant determinants of raw PC performance - jitter to the endpoint - in an audio context concern power consumption (how much and, to a lesser degree, how) and inherent execution timing (how regular it can be). The Z1 goes long on low power. There is a lot that can be done in an OS context for timing though CPUs of this nature are relatively limited relative to older or more powerful designs. 

 

The makers are a little cheeky on the motherboard being designed for audio (at first glance it's a bog-standard Biostar J3160NH mini-ITX motherboard with some stuff ripped out - not a lot ripped out at that). The RAM is a standard Transcend part and the Pico PSU is a fairly recognisable part. Barring the OS there's around $600 of parts here with the case (retail), and there's some very good free audiophile OS around. If you wanted to replicate the depopulation and were timid, an hour with a tech would replicate it ($80 or so). 

 

This is not a criticism. If you're having a great experience with it then it lends credence to a low-power argument. 

 

I'd personally be interested to see how it stacks up against an ARM-based build insofar as an endpoint goes. 

 

I'm surprised this is recent for you! If you're serious about chasing performance with Ethernet cables and the rest - you're effectively chasing jitter reduction - start with the source. It's additive otherwise.

[dayday]

@Assisi

 

little off topic. Looks like you have a cracking setup.

 

How's your Solution Pre+power matching ur Martin Mingus Quintet??

 

Havent seen a lot of Marten's pairing with Soulution, but world class stuff.

[Assisi]

9 minutes ago, dayday said:

@Assisi

 

little off topic. Looks like you have a cracking setup.

 

How's your Solution Pre+power matching ur Martin Mingus Quintet??

 

Havent seen a lot of Marten's pairing with Soulution, but world class stuff.

I am very fortunate as to where I am system wise now.  Whilst the Soulution and the Martens are a very significant ingredient in the final result, the digital parts are equally fundamental to the overall outcome.  The three Weiss components are serious especially the Medus which is up with the best.  The network configuration of switches and Ethernet cables are very important.  It is the same with the treatment of power.  Power is where it all starts.  It is all about the synergy of all the parts.  Minimal or no weak links.

 

I do have to say that the Martens have given me the opportunity to really appreciate the contribution of everything else.  Mine are in matt Oak.  Never been in Australia before.  Just beautiful.

 

John