Ethernet system for Audio: Tweaks on the clean side

[Thunder_Snake]

1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

Yes and no… the “ritual” of vinyl is said to be part of the allure.  It is at odds with the allure of digital, which is quick and convenient.

And this is my argument, the allure of what once was simple, convenient digital ie. a CD player, or a transport and Dac is now becoming convoluted by so many variables and doodads (implied in this thread at least), that was once quick and easy is now a moot point.

Don’t get me wrong, I have put time and thought into my digital rig, and I do believe switches, power supplies, cables etc. do make a difference. Alas the initial convenience and simplicity of digital playback that was the catalyst for most of us setting up a fine digital chain (me included), is now gone.

[Stereophilus]

7 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

My AIM NA7 ethernet cables have arrived today, so I will now try them out with the Waversa and comparing the effect to the Waversa.

Unfortunately (on early impressions) the Waversa improvement is not additive to the NA7 effect. With both in the system things get a little too sharply focussed, to the point of being unnatural and artificial.  Even with the Waversa attached in “blind loop” configuration, there is a detrimental effect.  This only occurs with the NA7 cables in the system though.  Shame.

 

 

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, G_goodwin said:

Don’t get me wrong, I have put time and thought into my digital rig, and I do believe switches, power supplies, cables etc. do make a difference. Alas the initial convenience and simplicity of digital playback that was the catalyst for most of us setting up a fine digital chain (me included), is now gone.

 

No it's not.  Just stop believing all those anecdotal stories about this and that making things sound better.  Most of them have no real basis can't be measured   anyway.   

 

Alternately,  just realise that what you have sounds great as it is.  Why obsess about further improvement?  Just buy some new music and enjoy it.

[Thunder_Snake]

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

No it's not.  Just stop believing all those anecdotal stories about this and that making things sound better.  Most of them have no real basis can't be measured   anyway.   

 

Alternately,  just realise that what you have sounds great as it is.  Why obsess about further improvement?  Just buy some new music and enjoy it.

No, it’s not, and I completely agree. I’m perfectly happy with my setup and haven’t had any urgency to change anything for at least 4 years now, except for a little tube rolling and a new NUC. 
I originally strolled onto here to look up any potential thoughts on the Network Acoustics Eno, as I like the idea that it displaces the need for high end switches and such, which I feel is a simple solution to quench any streaming chain upgrade thirst.

Unfortunately, now I’m being a Debbie Downer by seeing the irony in this thread which to me highlights that digital playback, once simple and convenient is now being approached in such a complex way in order to get all the way back to the beginning - cd quality playback. 
I will leave the thread alone, stop interrupting and let everyone get back to the search for that endgame. 

Cheers,

Glen

[Stereophilus]

@Assisi Retrieved the Waversa EXT1 reference today.  He had a listen to my system with the Waversa and NA7 cables, then with each used independently, then without either.  I think he agreed with my prior assessment.

 

What seems apparent is that the effects of the Waversa and the NA7 cables seem to be very system dependent and not necessarily easily generalised into a simple cohesive approach unfortunately.

[Justubes2]

Hi Steophilus,

 

So in the end the ext reference also did not work out for you.  

 

 

Wondering if you guys have optical into the houae as opposed to traditional lan wires and if the Waversa filter would not be neccessary if there is optical in from outside, hence much lower noise.

 

Thanks

[Assisi]

21 hours ago, Justubes2 said:

Hi Steophilus,

 

So in the end the ext reference also did not work out for you.  

 

 

Wondering if you guys have optical into the houae as opposed to traditional lan wires and if the Waversa filter would not be neccessary if there is optical in from outside, hence much lower noise.

 

Thanks

The Waversa Lan Filter was mine and I consider that in my network setup it is a definite benefit and it will be staying until I can afford the bigger one.  Probably never.  To me it is not about what happens in respect of whether the cable outside the house is copper or optical.  My NBN is fibre to the node and copper to the house.

 

 

 It is what happens in side the house after the Router that is important in the context of noise as you say.  My internal network is moderately complicated and the connections are both optical and copper.  I suggest that before you consider a filter, start with the configuration of switch(s) and the connections whether they be copper or optical or both depending on devices.  The filter would be last on the list to consider after everything else is to your satisfaction.

 

John

[Justubes2]

Hi John,

 

You have what most will consider complicated networking ecosystem going on!

 

Thank you for your recommendation and elaboration that the filters still have an impact.  Is your recommendation also be in order of effectiveness, that in a much thought out nework setup,

 

Are the gains, afterwhich still significant or more the icing on the cake?

 

There are a slew of audiophile lan cables which i found can have a significant impact on SQ, but also comes with different sonic presentations, as like any cable in the chain, must be selected to synergise with the system and own sonic preferences of presentaion which is already quite difficult to be able to test more of them.

 

Having and tested switches and power supplies already offers very different presentations.

 

They mostlydo also incorporate industrial common mode filters to tackle emi, though probably not as elaborate as the waversa/  NA filters,

 

Is it possibly that, like cascading switches, eventually multiple cascading filters may almost seem infinately beneficial to tackling emi, thus showing improvements with  each addition.

 

There may be no end in sight, expept thst each additional switch or filter eventually becomes less and less cost effective so that even multiple units like the Waversa Plus filter will still be better with each additional unit

 

 

[agisthos]

Is any of those WaverSA LAN filters available in Australia? If so what are the prices now? I just see dealer websites with the hubs and routers e.t.c no filters.

 

Looks like the LAN-EXT1 is being replaced with a new v2 version at higher cost.

[Assisi]

9 hours ago, agisthos said:

Is any of those WaverSA LAN filters available in Australia?

I am in Victoria.  The Filters are available.  Maybe via order. I have purchased all the Waversa products that I have from Sound Gallery.  You may have to ring John to find out availability of particular products.

 

https://soundgallery.com.au/

 

John

[agisthos]

@Assisi Did I read correctly that you thought the Ext-1 filters were better than the Network Acoustics Eno? Similar price range.

 

Edit : That was @Stereophilus

Edited September 19, 2023 by agisthos

[Assisi]

16 minutes ago, agisthos said:

@Assisi Did I read correctly that you thought the Ext-1 filters were better than the Network Acoustics Eno? Similar price range.

Yes but the benefit was just marginal.  I tried an Ext-1 and decided not to get one and just use the Eno as it provided a benefit .  Then I tried the The Waversa Reference. It was definitely much better whilst being  more expensive.  I bought one.  I am not using the Eno.

 

I expect that the bigger Waversa Reference Plus to be even better again than the just Reference at probably four or more  times the price.  I have not tried one as I cannot afford the expenditure.

John

[agisthos]

@Assisi Even the Ref is out of my price range currently so I have 2x WLAN EXT-1 on the way. Will put one in front of the steamer and the other in front of the NAS.

 

Apparently the new EXT-2 has 3x the filtering of EXT-1. And it will be 2k USD which probably means $3000 AUD. Not cheap for an entry level tweak that's for sure.

[Stereophilus]

6 hours ago, agisthos said:

@Assisi Did I read correctly that you thought the Ext-1 filters were better than the Network Acoustics Eno? Similar price range.

 

Edit : That was @Stereophilus

I have just been up to see @TerryO in sunny GC, where he has the Waversa smart hub and Waversa Reference plus in his main setup.  It is a fantastic sounding system and there is no doubt in my mind that Terry has achieved something special with his setup and a big part of that is down to the two Waversa products.  For anyone considering Waversa products (and optimising digital audio sound in general) I highly recommend a visit to GC Hifi.

[TerryO]

18 hours ago, agisthos said:

@Assisi Even the Ref is out of my price range currently so I have 2x WLAN EXT-1 on the way. Will put one in front of the steamer and the other in front of the NAS.

 

Apparently the new EXT-2 has 3x the filtering of EXT-1. And it will be 2k USD which probably means $3000 AUD. Not cheap for an entry level tweak that's for sure.

As of yesterday I have two of the new WLAN EXT-2’s ordered in the next shipment which is expected to arrive in late October, they will retail for $1895.

The LAN filters, whether the entry level, mid level or the Reference Plus high end on their own range from a very good to a seriously extremely impressive improvement in what they achieve with sq, but in my opinion the real secret sauce is having both the SmartHub combined with any one of the filters.
Each on their own, whether it be the filter, as I have said, or the SmartHub, provides an impressive improvement in sq, but together the improvement is far greater than the sum of the individual parts. 
 

I actually have two demo systems set up with SmartHubs, one has the Reference WLAN, like John Assisi has, and in the main room there is the Reference Plus WLAN filter. I usually have a EXT-1 also but sold my last one a few weeks ago and since then the EXT-2 has been announced which I can’t wait to hear.
 

I have also ordered new SmartHubs for stock in the next shipment, as these also tend to go out the door fairly quickly.

 

If anyone is up around the Gold Coast and would like to hear the Waversa gear feel free to pm me and then we can arrange a decent long listening and comparison session. 
 

cheers,

Terry

Edited September 19, 2023 by TerryO

[TerryO]

3 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

I have just been up to see @TerryO in sunny GC, where he has the Waversa smart hub and Waversa Reference plus in his main setup.  It is a fantastic sounding system and there is no doubt in my mind that Terry has achieved something special with his setup and a big part of that is down to the two Waversa products.  For anyone considering Waversa products (and optimising digital audio sound in general) I highly recommend a visit to GC Hifi.

Thank you John.

[agisthos]

13 hours ago, TerryO said:

As of yesterday I have two of the new WLAN EXT-2’s ordered in the next shipment which is expected to arrive in late October, they will retail for $1895.

 

 

That's really good pricing compared to the US, good work by the Aussie distributor.

[Guest]

I have to comment, maybe a bit belatedly, that the effect of the Waversa EXT-1 and the Smarthub 3.0 was very profound in my system. The EXT-1 brings clarity and the Smarthub 3.0 brings richness, in my system at least. Yin and Yang.

 

When I got the EXT-1, I did some testing on the EXT-1 to see if it passed DC as my system is connected to a Cisco Switch with POE. Yes it does pass DC so it is not a simple galvanic isolator. It is using some sort of passive system to get rid of grunge but it's not a transformer based solution.

When I first bought the EXT-1. I removed by Etherregen (since gone from my setup) and just installed the EXT-1, the soundstage widened and the level of high frequency information went up a step. I was listening to some FLAC files of Charles Mingus and noticed, for the first time, that there was a bit of hiss on the recording. I repeated this test and found the noise appeared with a number of older high quality analogue recordings that I have in my collection.

Turns out, that noise is part of the recording but when the Etherregen was in the system, you can't hear it. With just the EXT-1 it becomes apparent. So  it actually increases the bandwidth and dynamic range of the analogue output.

 

Interestingly, the Smarthub 3.0 seems to tone it down again. It also brings a really nice richness and suppleness to the sound. I also note that there is the ability to use the Smarthub 3.0 as a Roon endpoint which I am yet to try out properly.

 

The Waversa stuff is not cheap but it you are after a pristine and enjoyable digital setup, it's worth exploring. I'm upgrading my EXT-1 to the newer unit and I'm looking forward to increases in dynamics and clarity.. 

[frednork]

Here is a vid from Hans about switches and measured effects which I saw on another site. I would have put it in the switches thread but it is shut down.

 

As an aside , frankly, what an embarrassment that is for this site. I also see other network related threads in the great debate section. To me this is the equivalent of medieval times where heretics are punished or banished.

 

Other sites seem to manage this ok, why is this not possible here? 

 

Anyhow, heres the vid. Have at it.  Perhaps another small step to finding the measured "proof" that some seem to require.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-thread-some-gen2-dev-pics-and-update-starting-on-page-92/?do=findComment&comment=1256267

 

Here is the response from Alex at Uptone

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-thread-some-gen2-dev-pics-and-update-starting-on-page-92/?do=findComment&comment=1256277

 

Also a relevant post from John Swenson

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58648-discussion-of-the-uptone-jswenson-etherregen-white-paper/?do=findComment&comment=1256308

Edited October 1, 2023 by frednork

[Guest]

OK - after 3 text messages from members letting me know I was being discussed, apparently "tarred and feathered", and even compared to a certain site owner and reviewer on another scientific site, I decided I better pull myself away from a family function on a Sunday to see what was going on.

 

I have hidden all the off topic posts that were (ironically) arguing about why Ethernet threads can't remain open, and why they all seem to end up in The Great Debate sub-forum. Like this, apparently, is all my fault - which I find interesting considering I don't even participate in these topics myself. There's a certain responsibility for what is posted here that is on the posters, not me! 

 

Now I've sorted that, I'll go through the reports and try and work out what is actually going on.

May I suggest that discussions remain relevant to the topic, and not the moderation! 

If you want to raise an issue with moderators and/or admin about how things are managed around here, there are many easy ways to do that. If you have concerns, bring them to our attention - but don't bottle them up and then spew it all out in a discussion thread.

[POV]

5 hours ago, frednork said:

Here is a vid from Hans about switches and measured effects which I saw on another site. I would have put it in the switches thread but it is shut down.

 

As an aside , frankly, what an embarrassment that is for this site. I also see other network related threads in the great debate section. To me this is the equivalent of medieval times where heretics are punished or banished.

 

Other sites seem to manage this ok, why is this not possible here? 

 

Anyhow, heres the vid. Have at it.  Perhaps another small step to finding the measured "proof" that some seem to require.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-thread-some-gen2-dev-pics-and-update-starting-on-page-92/?do=findComment&comment=1256267

 

Here is the response from Alex at Uptone

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-thread-some-gen2-dev-pics-and-update-starting-on-page-92/?do=findComment&comment=1256277

 

Also a relevant post from John Swenson

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58648-discussion-of-the-uptone-jswenson-etherregen-white-paper/?do=findComment&comment=1256308

 

Good on you for posting this.  I've been following all of this with interest and for me the main issue with the current attempts from Jaap to demonstrate the impact of switches is that it's not measuring the thing that materially matters.  Don't get me wrong, I'm totally supportive of both Hans and Jaap attempting to get to the bottom of the issue.  For it to be persuasive however, in the way I think they are hoping it to be, they need to (in my opinion) take a range of DACs and measure the analogue output side of the DAC for distortion.  Confirming a change in jitter on the output side of the switch is of interest but we don't listen to a digital stream of data!

 

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Deepthought said:

Interestingly, the Smarthub 3.0 seems to tone it down again. It also brings a really nice richness and suppleness to the sound. I also note that there is the ability to use the Smarthub 3.0 as a Roon endpoint which I am yet to try out properly.

 

I have a Smarthub 3.0 but havent tried the EXT-1 in conjunction with this - will remedy this in a few weeks.

Have you tried it both BEFORE and AFTER the Smarthub in the chain?

 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Hydrology said:

I have a Smarthub 3.0 but havent tried the EXT-1 in conjunction with this - will remedy this in a few weeks.

Have you tried it both BEFORE and AFTER the Smarthub in the chain?

 

Yes, the EXT-1 seems to create a cleaner sound when you place it after the Smarthub 3.0. I like it in both locations but I have a slight preference to it being after the switch.

[davewantsmoore]

42 minutes ago, POV said:

take a range of DACs and measure the analogue output side of the DAC for distortion.

Yes.

Anything which is audible is measurable with the right equipment.

They may need to use more extensive inputs signals and techniques than the typical, though.

 

The change in jitter at the switch is not necessarily very relevant, as different receiving devices will do different things with the "jitter".  It could have some effect, or zero effect.

[March Audio]

11 hours ago, frednork said:

Here is a vid from Hans about switches and measured effects which I saw on another site. I would have put it in the switches thread but it is shut down.

 

As an aside , frankly, what an embarrassment that is for this site. I also see other network related threads in the great debate section. To me this is the equivalent of medieval times where heretics are punished or banished.

 

Other sites seem to manage this ok, why is this not possible here? 

 

Anyhow, heres the vid. Have at it.  Perhaps another small step to finding the measured "proof" that some seem to require.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-thread-some-gen2-dev-pics-and-update-starting-on-page-92/?do=findComment&comment=1256267

 

Here is the response from Alex at Uptone

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-thread-some-gen2-dev-pics-and-update-starting-on-page-92/?do=findComment&comment=1256277

 

Also a relevant post from John Swenson

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58648-discussion-of-the-uptone-jswenson-etherregen-white-paper/?do=findComment&comment=1256308

 

Sorry Fred but this is another incompetent test and is prone to all sorts of issues.

 

There is only one relevant place to measure jitter; THE AUDIO OUTPUT.

 

Trying to measure the jitter with a probe close to the clock gives you no direct indication of what the jitter is in the actual audio output signal.

 

Secondly, even if the jitter/phase noise differences he cites directly translated into the audio output, they are tiny .  Completely inaudible.

 

Sorry but clever Hans is not.  He is technically clueless.  He follows this with a sighted test and hears obvious differences.  What a surprise (facepalm).  Oh I love the way he makes all sorts of claims about audibility as if they are fact, without one shred of supporting evidence.

 

As has been discussed before, Swensons position is non sensical.

 

I made several attempts at this but could never build a measurement system that had significantly lower phase and amplitude noise than what I was trying to measure. If your measurement system has more noise than what you are trying to measure no measurements are valid.

 

We have been able to measure jitter and phase noise in audio signals to levels way, way below audibility for decades.  The levels required for audibility are well understood, tested/established and relatively high.

 

EDIT:  I just realised this Jaap guy is from Alpha Audio that did that utterly incompetent allegedly "blind" test of switches which has been discussed in other threads.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by March Audio