Ethernet system for Audio: Tweaks on the clean side

[dbastin]

This is another thread to share experiences with different parts of an ethernet 'system' for audio.  I have previously created threads for Ethernet Switches for audio (Parts A and B), and Ethernet System: Tweaks on the dirty side.

 

The problem = noise:

 

From what I can gather, an aim of an ethernet system for audio seems to be to eliminate or minimise 'noise'. Sources of noise include everything connected to the ethernet system, as well as noise from the environment its in that finds its way into cables and your audio gear.  Here's some ways to minimise noise:

 

- Isolate from noise on the rest of the network

- Use cables that minimise noise getting into them (their ground or data conductors)

- Use ethernet gear that generates minimal noise

 

Isolation can be achieved to varying degrees of sound quality with different devices:  eg. medical grade isolators, fibre optic, wifi, thru to Gigafoil v4 .. as well as switches.  Devices intended to achieve isolation may isolate from noise on the rest of the network but may generate their own 'noise' too (ideally achieve a net reduction in noise) - I may start a different thread about ways to achieve isolation.  There is usually 2 sides of isolation:  the noise free clean side (for audio) and the noisy dirty side (the rest of the network).

 

This Thread Topic: tweaks to reduce noise on the clean side

 

This thread is to share experiences that demonstrate if and how tweaks on the clean side affect sound quality. 

 

Please share tweaks other than cables unless the tweak affects the cable (eg. wraps).  Please let us know what you use for isolation, and what tweaks you'd found affect sound quality.

 

I will create another thread for ethernet cables, so lets not discuss pros and cons of different cables here.

 

Please feel free to provide links to other sources of info about other people's experiences too, such as other furums. 

 

Lets focus on sound quality rather than technical understand of if and how sound quality can be affected by tweaks to ethernet.  So please try not to clutter this thread up with technical debates, there's plenty of other places for those debates.

 

And please be civil and respectful of people's experiences and opinions so people feel safe sharing and this thread doesn't come under threat of being shut down.

[lumholtzii]

Good topic.  Especially focusing on tweaks that can be implemented cheaply and easily, if possible.

 

I suppose there are two tweaks that I have mucked around in the last 6 months to improve SQ. First was to move away from ethernet-over-power adaptors after I really discovered how bloody noisy they are. I had kidded myself for years that they were alright, but they were really awful in hindsight. 

 

However the reality of moving to blue cable wired through a double brick house was also going to be problematic, and the router, server and my system are all in different rooms.  I have thought about building / buying a fanless NUC to run Roon very locally to the system and lessen noise.  That is still a possibility too

 

For the short term (but with a longer term plan in mind), I bought some cheap-ish fibre optic to ethernet convertors on eBay, some SFP modules for OM1 cables and some reasonable lengths of cheap-ish fibre optic cables, and then rigged them up around the house.  In many ways I was blatantly trying to mimic the systemoptique of Sonore as I couldn’t afford the gear but could envisage the potential noise reduction. 

 

The sonic improvement was substantial and worth the relatively small investment.   Yes, it’s still running over floor boards and under rugs right at the moment as prototype (yes, with some funny quirky looks from the SO), but there’s enough length in the cables to run them discreetly & permantly under the house  when I get a free weekend !    

 

The second associated tweak was an upgraded the ethernet cables, which I realise will the topic of another thread but I've included for completeness.  In short I went with a Supra Cat 8 given my budget after reading the AudioBacon review https://audiobacon.net/2017/05/31/supra-cat8-ethernet-cable-review-an-amazing-spotify-and-tidal-experience/  - There  was  clear improvement in SQ compared to various Cat 6 variants that I played with.  .... more on that in the other thread. 

 

The combination of these two tweaks was worth it IMO, but on the downside the fibre optic system is more messy, more boxes plugged into power and hidden behind cabinets, etc.   It won’t be for everyone and the WAF is pretty low..

     

[Assisi]

13 hours ago, dbastin said:

This is another thread to share experiences with different parts of an ethernet 'system' for audio.

 @dbastin,

You have started two threads regarding the impact of Tweaks related to Ethernet configurations.  One thread is about the clean side and the other is the dirty side.  My question is side of what? 

John

[dbastin]

5 hours ago, Assisi said:

My question is side of what?

 

19 hours ago, dbastin said:

There is usually 2 sides of isolation:  the noise free clean side (for audio) and the noisy dirty side (the rest of the network).

So, I refer to each side of whatever is being used for isolation.

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

 

So, I refer to each side of whatever is being used for isolation.

This topic interests me because of my reliance on Ethernet in the front end of my system.  I probably have a few more bits in my audio network configuration than some.  There is a 4bay NAS, a second audio grade NAS,  Roon core on an audio grade Linux box, a network player, a DSP (That I still have to learn to setup fully to get the maximum benefit) that is also Roon ready and finally two converters with optical connection between the Network switch and the DSP.  There are also 3 Acoustic Revive Lan Isolators.  I am surprised sometimes that everything works reliably.

 

 

In terms of my understanding your reference to Isolation, besides the 3 LAN isolators the only audio side isolation that I have are the two KSM Fibre Ethernet converters and the optical cable.  With them in the Network there is definite difference.  I still have to decide whether I think that the difference is beneficial or not. 

 

 

I am contemplating getting an audio grade network switch but will wait awhile before making a final decision as to which one.  In the mean time, with the bits above I do have an opportunity to try various combination.

 

John

Edited January 15, 2020 by Assisi
spacing

[Mpr_65]

Given that switches, cables and connections outside the source component create noise would it be better sonically to operate in WiFi when streaming audio? Stability issues of WiFi aside. 
Just a thought I had from reading the thread. 

[dbastin]

1 minute ago, Mpr_65 said:

would it be better sonically to operate in WiFi when streaming audio?

I tested that theory.  I had WiFi from iinet BOB modem to Devialet Pro, which was alot better than Beilken Cat 5e.  Then I used Wireworld Starlight 7 between modem and Devialet - and experienced obvious improvement.

[Stereophilus]

13 hours ago, Mpr_65 said:

Given that switches, cables and connections outside the source component create noise would it be better sonically to operate in WiFi when streaming audio? Stability issues of WiFi aside. 
Just a thought I had from reading the thread. 

Wifi transceivers are typically noisier than anything wired.  A well designed wifi streamer could outperform a wired unit in theory.  Practice is yet to realise this.

 

https://darko.audio/2018/08/ethernet-or-wifi-which-is-better-for-high-end-audio-streaming/

[dbastin]

I imagine Devialet designed its wifi to equally very high standard as other things in the Pro, and the modem with wifi was just 30cm apart from Devialet so I presume a strong signal.  Maybe it was too close.

[dbastin]

There has been discussion on other Ethernet for Audio threads about a few products that are relevant to this topic.  Let's call these products isolators:

 

There are a number of small isolators, such as JCAT and Acoustic Revive Lan Isolators, which seem to be an adaption of similar isolators used for medical purposes.  SOtM ISO-CAT is another similar product I have tried and found to be beneficial compared to no isolator.  Relatively speaking, the impacts of these small and of 'tweak' scale.

 

The following are far beyond tweaks and probably create better isolation than audio grade switches - sInce my opening post, I have come to the view that most of these switches are not doing much isolation.

 

One exception to these switches is Uptone Audio EtherRegen (ER) which is provides excellent isolation and also a switch and fibre media convertor.  Further isolation from the network can be achieved using fibre into ER, which can improve sound quality - I feel it does, but it depends on many things.  There is a thread about fibre.

 

Of similar isolation performance to ER is Gigafoilv4 using fibre (internally) as the isolation - https://www.djmelectronics.com/gigafoilv4-inline-ethernet-filter.html. .  It was developed for industrial purposes but has proven very effective for audio also In my experience Gigafoilv4 is far superior to SOtM ISO-CAT, even though the latter is an improvement over using no isolator.

 

There is also some bespoke products emerging, most recently:

• Network Acoustics ENO - https://www.networkacoustics.com/eno/
• Waversa WLAN isolator EXT1 and Reference - https://waversasystems.com/wlan-isolator-ext1

I have not tried these, but others have.  My main isolation is 2 x ER, fibre and wifi.

 

I have tried wifi into Auralic Aries G1 and Devialet Pro and, despite the experience I shared above, discovered wifi is extremely good and value subject to having very  good network and wifi hardware and an endpoint which deals with the noise generated by the wifi module.

 

I suggest implement fibre and/or wifi before expending on ER, Gigafoil or the above more costly options.

[dbastin]

Thanks to @Hydrology for this info.

For anyone interested in Waversa's Isolation products range (as its hard to get all of this info in one place), here is the list with AUD RRP:-

 

[Hydrology]

My SmartHub3.0 has just arrived - will put it into the system at home over the weekend. One of the cool things about this is it has a Roon Bridge mode, so, plug any DAC without streamer into it via USB and Roon will recognize the DAC! In addition to DLNA. And its bloody heavy!

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Hydrology

[Hydrology]

And this is why its bloody heavy - more metal than a Spinal Tap concert!

 

[Stereophilus]

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1121/Synergistic_Research_Ethernet_Switch_UEF_Ground_Block_SE_Purple_Fuses_Review.htm

 

A long-ish review with some interesting findings.

[Hydrology]

So I've had the Waversa in my system since Sunday, but didnt get a chance to listen until Monday. For me, the improvements are substantial. I know the OCXO will take another day or two to probably reach its operating temp so there may some more gains to come. The system had plenty of low-end slam prior to this install, but now the punch is there without the "flabbiness". Bottom end is tight and well-defined. Imaging is pin-point with a "sense" of better front-to-back separation, but further listening will be required. And, wait for the cliche, a blacker background....

 

I did find the improvements with this switch far more immediate and obvious than with the Innuos Phoenix NET. I am just using a $2 ethernet cable from the Innuos server to this switch, in a few mins I will switch this out for one of my Supra CAT8/Telegartner concoctions, followed by a Atlas Mavros Ethernet cable to try at the weekend.

[Assisi]

On 23/11/2021 at 6:06 PM, dbastin said:

Thanks to @Hydrology for this info.

For anyone interested in Waversa's Isolation products range (as its hard to get all of this info in one place), here is the list with AUD RRP:-

I know that an increase for the RRP price for the Waversa WLAN isolator EXT1 Reference has been announced.  The increase is 15% which makes the RRP $6,895.  Very steep increase indeed.  I was told that I was lucky to get mine before the increase.  Definitely lucky including the listening outcome that just improved and improved over a couple of weeks.  I am surprised every time I turn my system on.

 

I do not know whether the increase is for all the products listed in the table provided by @Hydrology,

John

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, Assisi said:

The increase is 15% which makes the RRP $6,895

I was wrong.  The increase is almost 30%.  Actual RRP is now $7,695.  Ouch and Ouch again!

 

John

[Hydrology]

31 minutes ago, Assisi said:

I was wrong.  The increase is almost 30%.  Actual RRP is now $7,695.  Ouch and Ouch again!

 

John

Who is suggesting an increase in Waversa pricing? The price table above (direct from Australian distributor) was supplied to me only minutes before I posted it last week.

[aussievintage]

On 15/01/2020 at 8:15 PM, Mpr_65 said:

Given that switches, cables and connections outside the source component create noise would it be better sonically to operate in WiFi when streaming audio?

I have found wifi to be an excellent way to  keep the hifi system phycially separated from the computer stuff, and   isolate it electrically as well.

 

On 15/01/2020 at 8:15 PM, Mpr_65 said:

Stability issues of WiFi aside. 

 

What stability issues specifically.  Only thing I can think of is signal strength being too low, or interference from others using the same frequencies. It's worth checking what's being used in your area (simple phone app can do this)and switching to a different frequency. These days there are plenty of ways to ensure good wifi coverage throughout a dwelling.

 

On 15/01/2020 at 8:22 PM, dbastin said:

I tested that theory.  I had WiFi from iinet BOB modem to Devialet Pro, which was alot better than Beilken Cat 5e.  Then I used Wireworld Starlight 7 between modem and Devialet - and experienced obvious improvement.

 

That is one instance only.  I would not dismiss the general question of whether wifi can be better, based on one example.

 

On 16/01/2020 at 9:40 AM, Stereophilus said:

 A well designed wifi streamer could outperform a wired unit in theory.

 

Agree.  btw.    I run all my audio and video streaming via Wifi with excellent results.

[Assisi]

54 minutes ago, Hydrology said:

Who is suggesting an increase in Waversa pricing? The price table above (direct from Australian distributor) was supplied to me only minutes before I posted it last week.

Hi @Hydrology,

 

What you posted I understand was the price until very recently.  My new information is as from yesterday from my supplier in Melbourne.  As well, as the price for the LAN box I was told that the  RRP for the WAVERSA WCORE 2.0 that I have, has gone from $11,995 to $15,000.  Also all new orders for the Reference LAN filter will be at the new price.  That is why I was told I was lucky. 

 

 

It will be interesting as to what the Australian distributor advises you.  I will remove my posts if I am wrong.  

 

John

[dbastin]

4 hours ago, aussievintage said:

That is one instance only.  I would not dismiss the general question of whether wifi can be better, based on one example.

Jan 2020 seems so long ago,  I have leaned so much since then.  I now use wifi to the Devialet, and its is so much better.  What changed?  The old iinet BOB router is in the bin, and now I use Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP and a TP Link Access Point.   Unfortunately I can't edit my old post to update my findings on that point.

[Hydrology]

9 hours ago, Assisi said:

It will be interesting as to what the Australian distributor advises you.  I will remove my posts if I am wrong.  

 

 

 

@Assisi is correct, there are imminent price changes, however the increase % amount is still being discussed as the distributor is doing their best to keep this lean and absorb some of these rises. Believe it or not some distributors actually do go above and beyond... 

[Frank Prowse Hi-Fi]

I can confirm that the pricing above on Waversa products WILL be maintained until December 31st. Any products required from Jan 1 will be subject to the new increased pricing as @Assisi has confirmed in his posts. Anyone looking to get in on the Waversa action would be advised to do so sooner rather than later. And yes, Frank Prowse Hi-Fi is an authorised dealer for Waversa.

[was_a]

If there's one absolute, in my opinion, it's that noise reduction for ethernet streaming is nothing more than a band-aid solution if the source is not noise free: that is, the computer / NAS drive / router where the audio files originate / are stored. 

 

This should be the high priority for anyone seeking sound quality comparable to a traditional hi-fi source. Only after this is downstream noise reduction trully effective.

 

 

[Assisi]

56 minutes ago, Frank Prowse Hi-Fi said:

I can confirm that the pricing above on Waversa products WILL be maintained until December 31st. Any products required from Jan 1 will be subject to the new increased pricing as @Assisi has confirmed in his posts. Anyone looking to get in on the Waversa action would be advised to do so sooner rather than later. And yes, Frank Prowse Hi-Fi is an authorised dealer for Waversa.

 

Waversa products are serious quality and there is unfortunately a commensurate cost as well as there is in many other quality audio components.  Other manufactures such as Naim are also increasing prices at the moment.  If any one is interested in Waversa products the advice above is excellent.  Get in now when the prices are definitely lower.  Any on who lives in Victoria and who wants a listen before deciding contact Sound Gallery.

John

Edited December 6, 2021 by Assisi