Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 This may be a dump idea and has anyone tried connecting RCA interconnect cable with ground from short tonearm wire coming off from the bottom of the tonearm shaft? I have a tonearm which has short tonearm wires coming out of tonearm shaft which are meant to be soldered to female RCA connectors. Instead of soldering female RCA connector that mounts on the back of the plinth, what happens if RCA cable soldered directly to those thin tonearm wires so no female RCA connectors between? The purpose of this is to not to re-solder every time trying to change the tonearm from the turntable but do not want to dismantle entire tonearm to rewire which seem daunting task. Any feedback and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Posted January 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, wen said: what turntable are you using? Vintage Lenco turntable.
Citroen Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 Can't see a problem with this. I have two arms that have Cardas 33 AWG cable from cartridge to male RCA's that plug into the phono preamp. Your suggestion is just doing away with the female to male RCA connection and replacing it with a soldered joint. But it does then restrict you to which cable you have. How about using RCA's on each end (tonearm cable end and RCA phono end), and just anchoring the cable to the plinth with clips (or as I do, with blutak). Then you can use any tonearm cable you want, and it would be easy to swap arms. 1
Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Posted January 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Citroen said: How about using RCA's on each end (tonearm cable end and RCA phono end), and just anchoring the cable to the plinth with clips (or as I do, with blutak). Then you can use any tonearm cable you want, and it would be easy to swap arms. Sorry for my dumbness May I know what you mean by using RCA on each end and just anchoring the cable to the plinth with clips? Do you mean solder thin & short tonearm wire end to RCA female connectors (x2) without bracket and stick those RCA female terminated wires under the plinth with some kind of clips? And, use normal single ended interconnect RCA cable to connect between tonearm and phonostage?
audiofeline Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Yes, you can solder one end of the RCA lead directly to the tonearm wires. However, it is usually done via a tagstrip, which is secured to the plinth so the tonearm wires are not accidentally pulled out. Example below - solder the three wires using the three tags, and the centre one secures the strip to the plinth. Edit: Of course, for a tonearm, you would not use a 3-position tagstrip as pictured above. A 5-position tagstrip would be required - 2 tags each for L+R +ve and -ve wires, plus the tonearm ground. Edited July 3, 2020 by audiofeline 1
Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, audiofeline said: Yes, you can solder one end of the RCA lead directly to the tonearm wires. However, it is usually done via a tagstrip, which is secured to the plinth so the tonearm wires are not accidentally pulled out. Example below - solder the three wires using the three tags, and the centre one secures the strip to the plinth. Thank you for the idea. Isn't this basically same as female RCA connector bracket so I have to desolder each time I swap tonearm with another?
Guest Muon N' Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) @audiofeline Above is a good idea, and make sure you have enough free wire slack on the tone arm side of things so there is no chance of them becoming strained as the arm moves across the record. Edited January 13, 2020 by Muon N'
Citroen Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, Spider27 said: Sorry for my dumbness May I know what you mean by using RCA on each end and just anchoring the cable to the plinth with clips? Do you mean solder thin & short tonearm wire end to RCA female connectors (x2) without bracket and stick those RCA female terminated wires under the plinth with some kind of clips? And, use normal single ended interconnect RCA cable to connect between tonearm and phonostage? Not dumb at all. Yes, you got it. That's exactly what I mean. I have the following but all you need to do is swap the blutak in my pic for a female to male RCA connection. 1
Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Posted January 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Citroen said: Not dumb at all. Yes, you got it. That's exactly what I mean. I have the following but all you need to do is swap the blutak in my pic for a female to male RCA connection. Good to know that I am not a dumb after all. Thank you for the suggestion and it is definitely good viable one.
Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Posted January 13, 2020 What if using this type of tagstrip terminal so no soldering is required? I suspect that soldering might be better choice since tonearm wire is so thin and signal is so weak?
Citroen Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 No real world experience with that particular terminal but the quality and type of materials used usually has a great bearing on the final sound quality. 1 1
audiofeline Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Spider27 said: What if using this type of tagstrip terminal so no soldering is required? I suspect that soldering might be better choice since tonearm wire is so thin and signal is so weak? The tonearm wire is so delicate it would easily break off this tagstrip. You could solder the tonearm cable to two inline rca sockets and then use a rca-rca cable to the phono. However, I would be concerned that the weight of the sockets could pull the tonearm wires and damage them or a connection because they are delicate. It may be feasible if you attached an extra length of low capacitance shielded cable to the sockets, but you would still need to be careful when you move the tonarm/wires. 1
Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, audiofeline said: The tonearm wire is so delicate it would easily break off this tagstrip. You could solder the tonearm cable to two inline rca sockets and then use a rca-rca cable to the phono. However, I would be concerned that the weight of the sockets could pull the tonearm wires and damage them or a connection because they are delicate. It may be feasible if you attached an extra length of low capacitance shielded cable to the sockets, but you would still need to be careful when you move the tonarm/wires. Yes, I agree. The weight of RCA socket can be a problem even if it was clipped. Alternative option that I am thinking is to put light weight plastic housing 5Pin Din socket so any 3rd party Din tonearm cables can be connected. The issue with this is again securely mounting the 5Pin Din socket to the tonearm/plinth since the tonearm does not have slot for 5Pin din socket. 1
Southerly Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 audiofeline has it right - Kenwood/Trio used this method on the KD/KP series decks. They used silver plated tags and the tag board was screwed to the aluminium spider. Spider 27 your idea means that the low voltage signal has to pass through a mass of metal on it's way to the phono stage. Particle physics show that all materials radiate an electromagnetic 'force' field (sometimes almost unmeasurable) aka a force field generated by one particle on another weaker particle/force field. This seems to be completely ignored in so much of the audio world. Nowhere is this so obvious as in transferring the weak electronically generated signal from one point to another - from the cartridge to the phono stage. I'd like to use the revolutionary idea of the Kenwood engineers developed at the end of the 1970s' to use solid core silver wire instead of Litz multi-strand. Then without any interruption from cartridge tags to phono stage. This way nothing could interfere with signal. To do this I would have to take the chance of nackering the excellent Kenwood gimbal arm by removing the plugs at the end of the arm and in the removable head shell. As my first KD 990 only cost me £120 I shall soon take this chance. There is in audio too much resistance to change in fundamental technology and this is well illustrated by connectors - RCA/XLR - great lumps of metal inter reacting with signal transfer. It's well past time to develop ways of transferring the signal from one piece of equipment to another, being mindful of the sound science of particle physics. Spider 27 - why not solder (use as little solder as possible) the arm wiring to the same, find a point on the chassis to 'clamp' gently but securely the wiring, sheath in either Teflon or better FEP tubing at the exit point of the deck and if possible solder directly to the input point in the phono stage. I'll bet you will hear a definite improvement/clarity. 2
Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Southerly said: audiofeline has it right - Kenwood/Trio used this method on the KD/KP series decks. They used silver plated tags and the tag board was screwed to the aluminium spider. Spider 27 your idea means that the low voltage signal has to pass through a mass of metal on it's way to the phono stage. Particle physics show that all materials radiate an electromagnetic 'force' field (sometimes almost unmeasurable) aka a force field generated by one particle on another weaker particle/force field. This seems to be completely ignored in so much of the audio world. Nowhere is this so obvious as in transferring the weak electronically generated signal from one point to another - from the cartridge to the phono stage. I'd like to use the revolutionary idea of the Kenwood engineers developed at the end of the 1970s' to use solid core silver wire instead of Litz multi-strand. Then without any interruption from cartridge tags to phono stage. This way nothing could interfere with signal. To do this I would have to take the chance of nackering the excellent Kenwood gimbal arm by removing the plugs at the end of the arm and in the removable head shell. As my first KD 990 only cost me £120 I shall soon take this chance. There is in audio too much resistance to change in fundamental technology and this is well illustrated by connectors - RCA/XLR - great lumps of metal inter reacting with signal transfer. It's well past time to develop ways of transferring the signal from one piece of equipment to another, being mindful of the sound science of particle physics. Spider 27 - why not solder (use as little solder as possible) the arm wiring to the same, find a point on the chassis to 'clamp' gently but securely the wiring, sheath in either Teflon or better FEP tubing at the exit point of the deck and if possible solder directly to the input point in the phono stage. I'll bet you will hear a definite improvement/clarity. Thank you very much for sharing the insight. Have I understood correctly that short tonearm wire solder directly to phonostage Input (female RCA socket)? Very interesting and possibly greatly improving sonic quality by doing so but I am not comfortable soldering cable onto Phonostage input directly. This means that I have to desolder them if I need to use phonostage with another turntable. Alternative option that I am thinking is below idea. 1. Come up with some kind of plug that will block the tonearm shaft end so tonearm wire does not move freely but is secured firmly. 2. Solder single ended RCA interconnect directly to tonearm wires so there is nothing between other than RCA male termination that will be connected to phonostage. 3. Mount this RCA interconnect cable securely inside plinth somewhere so less stress on tonearm wire. I guess that this is how Rega tonearms are terminated with RCA interconnect cable? If it works, then need to figure out possible substance for tonearm wire plug that will be plugged into end of tonearm shaft and also how to strengthen joint area between tonearm wire (super thin) and RCA interconnect cable (quite thick). Edited January 13, 2020 by Spider27
Southerly Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 No don't plug the shaft, no need to, just find a place on the underside of the deck to gently 'clamp the tone arm wiring once it is sheathed in a suitable oversized tubing. It is important that there is no strain on the tonearm wiring, this is also true of i/connects. If you use shielded power cables you should find that there is no need to use shielding on the tonearm wiring. I have found that shielding distorts the signal . It should be easy for you to try both types (theory from practice). The only advantage with one piece arms (Rega) is that they are very easy to rewire, using draw wires makes it a doddle. I take your point about the phono stage options. So, use an RCA but make sure it's a good one. I've used many types of RCAs - the Eichmans are an expensive joke, there are others. The ones I have used for years are the Puresonics from Taiwan, the best are the Balanced type - the beryllium copper of the signal and return use exactly the same amount of material, hence the balance description. I use multiple conductors and they are so easy to solder to and if you want to try different conductors they can be soldered and resoldered many times without trouble. Don't be fooled by the marketing hype of Rhodium, just check out the metals tables, it's nowhere near silver or gold plated plugs. Many RCAs use a screw in the barrel to hold the conductors - NEVER EVER use them, discard and hold the conductors in place using heat shrink.you may have to use two different gauges.This would'nt be nec. if the manufacturers used tapered barrels. I actually phoned the owner of Puresonics and asked if he could make these tapered barrels and if he would give me exclusive European rights of distribution. he declined on both counts. They have never taken off because whoever distributed them upped the price to 'compete' with Eichmans and they have never been promoted on their obvious advantages. He offered them to me in 2010 @ $US 6.50 per set of 4, various distributors were trying to sell them at around €40 per set (very greedy). You can buy them direct from Taiwan but unfortunately he has set the price at something similar to Eichmans, still they are very good and if I have to use RCAs I use them. 1
audiofeline Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Another option is to modify your tonearm so it has a phono connector attached (often incorrectly called a "mini-DIN"). SME toneams are often modified so they have two RCA sockets attached. It may not be viable if your tonearm is suspended. Above: Phono cable with 5-pin tonearm connector. Above: SME tonearm with RCA socket adaptor. Edited January 14, 2020 by audiofeline Fixed image display problem 1
Spider27 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, audiofeline said: Another option is to modify your tonearm so it has a phono connector attached (often incorrectly called a "mini-DIN"). SME toneams are often modified so they have two RCA sockets attached. It may not be viable if your tonearm is suspended. Above: Phono cable with 5-pin tonearm connector. Above: SME tonearm with RCA socket adaptor. Yes, that would be neat to have mini DIN so can use 3rd party detachable phono cable. Tonesarm shaft diameter is very small so mini-din would not fit into the shaft so need to be outside and gently mount it onto somewhere inner side of plinth along with phono cable. Re: SME RCA adapter, the link somehow does not show image and I guess that you mean this one? This would be another good option if it is small enough, then it can even be removed through tonearm mounting hole so no need to solder again when swapping with another tonearm.
Spider27 Posted January 14, 2020 Author Posted January 14, 2020 10 hours ago, Southerly said: No don't plug the shaft, no need to, just find a place on the underside of the deck to gently 'clamp the tone arm wiring once it is sheathed in a suitable oversized tubing. It is important that there is no strain on the tonearm wiring, this is also true of i/connects. If you use shielded power cables you should find that there is no need to use shielding on the tonearm wiring. I have found that shielding distorts the signal . It should be easy for you to try both types (theory from practice). Thank you again. I have oversized heatshrink that could be used for it. If bare silver wire is connected to tonearm wire and clamp together gently, isn't it going to cause intermittence issue since there is no shielding and they may touch each other?
audiofeline Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 3 hours ago, Spider27 said: ...Re: SME RCA adapter, the link somehow does not show image and I guess that you mean this one?... Yes, this looks like one of a number of solutions available to adapt the SME arm. I've changed the image link in my previous post to show an SME with the RCA adaptor (apologies for the problem). The image shows the frame that fixes it to the underside of the tonearm.
Southerly Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 Spider 27, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The tonearm wire has airtight dialectric, just strip away enough of the dialectric to enable you to solder the new wires. Continuity is very important for optimum signal transfer so whatever the existing tonearm wire is, use the same. do not 'clamp' at the solder joints, allow a couple of inches. Use something like a fairly dense foam under any piece of suitable material using small screws either side. All you need is enough pressure to stop the wires from moving and treat the assembly with care in use. The easiest way is as audiofeline has suggested using a piece of tag board, the trade-off is interruption of the signal path. This is the method that Kenwood used with the KD/KP decks and the reason I would like to use one piece construction from cartridge tags to phono stage. If there is any chance that the wires might touch at the solder joints the optimum heat shrink material to use is FEP heatshrink from www.adtech.co.uk. The smallest diameter they do is ID (inside diameter) 1.5mm in standard wall or 1.8mm thin wall, check out the info on the Adtech site. This is the company I use for all my dialectric needs. As you will not need a lot they may let you have a sample. If you make your own i/connects, think about buying some oversized FEP tubing you will not regret it. If you are going to use the same wire as per your existing tonearm wire then use straight runs inside Techflex cotton sheathing - www.techflex.nl never use the ordinary nylon stuff, it's very microphonic. With this method of construction there should be much better signal transfer, the optimum is of course one piece construction from cartridge tags to phono stage. If you are minded you could make a shielded version and compare the two, I'll bet you will use the unshielded version, just make sure that all your power cables have good shielding. 1
Spider27 Posted January 16, 2020 Author Posted January 16, 2020 On 15/01/2020 at 10:29 PM, Southerly said: Spider 27, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The tonearm wire has airtight dialectric, just strip away enough of the dialectric to enable you to solder the new wires. Continuity is very important for optimum signal transfer so whatever the existing tonearm wire is, use the same. do not 'clamp' at the solder joints, allow a couple of inches. Use something like a fairly dense foam under any piece of suitable material using small screws either side. All you need is enough pressure to stop the wires from moving and treat the assembly with care in use. The easiest way is as audiofeline has suggested using a piece of tag board, the trade-off is interruption of the signal path. This is the method that Kenwood used with the KD/KP decks and the reason I would like to use one piece construction from cartridge tags to phono stage. If there is any chance that the wires might touch at the solder joints the optimum heat shrink material to use is FEP heatshrink from www.adtech.co.uk. The smallest diameter they do is ID (inside diameter) 1.5mm in standard wall or 1.8mm thin wall, check out the info on the Adtech site. This is the company I use for all my dialectric needs. As you will not need a lot they may let you have a sample. If you make your own i/connects, think about buying some oversized FEP tubing you will not regret it. If you are going to use the same wire as per your existing tonearm wire then use straight runs inside Techflex cotton sheathing - www.techflex.nl never use the ordinary nylon stuff, it's very microphonic. With this method of construction there should be much better signal transfer, the optimum is of course one piece construction from cartridge tags to phono stage. If you are minded you could make a shielded version and compare the two, I'll bet you will use the unshielded version, just make sure that all your power cables have good shielding. Super helpful. Thank you very much. I will definitely refer them when i make solder joints.
Telecine Posted January 16, 2020 Posted January 16, 2020 I have a Univector tonearm made by the late, great Duc. If you have sufficient cable length, you could create and external RCA mounting block to attach to your plinth. I have borrowed someone else’s photo of the arm to illustrate the concept: 1
Capone Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 On 16/01/2020 at 5:05 AM, Telecine said: I have a Univector tonearm made by the late, great Duc. If you have sufficient cable length, you could create and external RCA mounting block to attach to your plinth. I have borrowed someone else’s photo of the arm to illustrate the concept: Any ideas on where i could purchase one of these RCA Blocks? Thinking of going this route with my Mission Tonearm Cheers
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