Joe Rasmussen Posted January 10 Posted January 10 20 hours ago, e83cc said: Anyone know if this low output Grado cartridge will work with a current mode phono ?? What happens at 100ohms ?? No, it is not suitable for current mode phonos for the same reason that 100R is not suitable, and current mode is much lower than that. The DC resistance of the coil is a 70 Ohm and is a good pointer to how low in load value that might be used when we lower from 47K. It might indicate that trying loads lower than 47K, but nowhere near as low as the DC resistance, might give you a nice gain that you like. With my own phono I have parallel Load sockets, so that I can solder my preferred 3K3 into spare RCA plugs and plug that in. The load is then calculated (47x3.3)/(47x3.3) = 3K083 and listening tells me, after considerable experimentation, that is the best value. But this is a tweak and it actually sounds good at 47K, but 100 Ohm or lower it's going to sound dark and wrong. Current mode phonos are virtually a short to the coil, but here the coil resistance needs to be sub 10 Ohm at least. 2
skies2clear Posted January 10 Posted January 10 No disrespect Joe, but your formula should be 47x3.3/47+3.3 (I know just a typo)
PKay Posted January 10 Posted January 10 10 minutes ago, Joe Rasmussen said: No, it is not suitable for current mode phonos for the same reason that 100R is not suitable, and current mode is much lower than that. The DC resistance of the coil is a 70 Ohm and is a good pointer to how low in load value that might be used when we lower from 47K. It might indicate that trying loads lower than 47K, but nowhere near as low as the DC resistance, might give you a nice gain that you like. With my own phono I have parallel Load sockets, so that I can solder my preferred 3K3 into spare RCA plugs and plug that in. The load is then calculated (47x3.3)/(47x3.3) = 3K083 and listening tells me, after considerable experimentation, that is the best value. But this is a tweak and it actually sounds good at 47K, but 100 Ohm or lower it's going to sound dark and wrong. Current mode phonos are virtually a short to the coil, but here the coil resistance needs to be sub 10 Ohm at least. I like the idea of parallel load sockets. They give a lot more flexibility- shame that more companies don’t do it. I think that’s @andyrs approach with his amp. 1
andyr Posted January 10 Posted January 10 (edited) 38 minutes ago, PKay said: I like the idea of parallel load sockets. They give a lot more flexibility - shame that more companies don’t do it. I think that’s @andyrs approach with his amp. Sure is, Peter (and with the 'Paris' head amp) ... but Joe/Allen thought of it first. Then again, it would seem Marcus, Joe and me ... must be lightweights - as the heavyweights (who know how things work) hang out on the SNA thread "Dispelling the myths about MC phono cartridge loading"! Edited January 10 by andyr 1
colinm1 Posted January 10 Posted January 10 35 minutes ago, PKay said: I like the idea of parallel load sockets. They give a lot more flexibility- shame that more companies don’t do it. I think that’s @andyrs approach with his amp. My Ayre phono ,is good for that ,has xlr and rca on in and out , so as stated in their Manuel, loading cart is by using the unused input , as your loading plug ! it gives you both options as input ,and gives optional loading ,without opening the case ! just smart design , also the Ayre has seperate gain options and internal loading options , from 47 k to 100 so my Grado can be used on a mc gain type setting , but can be adjusted ,from 47 k down ! 1
marcusD Posted January 10 Posted January 10 7 hours ago, PKay said: Thanks, that will rule it out for my Audio Origami PU7 and Alphason arms which are both 11g. No 11 grams is bang on between 8-12 gram arms would be the sweet spot 2
marcusD Posted January 10 Posted January 10 5 hours ago, PKay said: Thanks, re-reading it and I think he is saying his lightest arm is18.5 grams. Yup my lightest arm currently set up on my tables is 18.5 grams, sooner or later I will roll in some lighter arms and the grado will roar again
Joe Rasmussen Posted January 10 Posted January 10 4 hours ago, colinm1 said: My Ayre phono ,is good for that ,has xlr and rca on in and out , The late Allen Wright and the late Charlie Hansen of Ayre were friends. So not surprised that Ayre would have this simple but oh so flexible option. 2
Joe Rasmussen Posted January 10 Posted January 10 (edited) As noted in the picture earlier, I use an Origami Uniarm which has the same arm tube as PU-7 and hence about the same mass. I think it would be good up to 12g and my own cartridge is 8g. As you guys may know, the Audio Origami arms were handmade by John Nilson. Alas, were is the operative word. I have just recently been told that he will make no more. I want to talk about my Garrard 401. This sample was used in a radiogram cabinet and and not been used for decades. It was eventually broken in pieces and Adam Hutnit, previously Pymble Hi-Fi, was able to secure it. Later he offered it to me based on work to be done by him. I pulled it to bits and it was clear that all the oil had dried out during all these years not being used. The main bearing was dry, but since it had not been running dry, it was in near perfect condition, so cleaned and oiled it. The next major thing was the motor, which I dismantled it entirely. It to was dry as a bone but not damaged. Again a very competent clear and re-oiling and it was all fine. Now for the main frame, dust had allowed to settle on it and of course dust will take moisture out of the air and hence we ended up with a pitted surface. But I did not mind that as I had other ideas in mind. The main frame is a large cast and is not entirely free of ringing. There was enough of a gap between the fitted platter and the frame beneath it. This meant that I would add a layer of black acrylic sheet and bond it to the top surface. I won't tell you exactly how I did it, but it created a constrained layer effect that was damping the frame enormously and also gave the 401 a black look. I sold the original bearing to a guy in Mexico to fit to his 301. I on the other hand fitted a new stainless steel bearing from Peak Hi-Fi in England, that came in just under $1000 and that meant it avoided the GST. All in all, it took a little over a year. The plinth I got from Austria and it is multi-layered Baltic birch ply. The bottom is open, it must not be closed and have a cavity resonance. I took the picture below and showed it to John Nilson. He liked that I had the silver arm version and declared it "sexy" and I wonder if anybody here agrees with that? Edited January 10 by Joe Rasmussen 11 4
colinm1 Posted January 10 Posted January 10 Adding 2 plugs , would value add to the product no end ,making it more versatile ,and more attractive to more people
PKay Posted January 10 Posted January 10 13 minutes ago, Joe Rasmussen said: As noted in the picture earlier, I use an Origami Uniarm which has the same arm tube as PU-7 and hence about the same mass. I think it would be good up to 12g and my own cartridge is 8g. As you guys may know, the Audio Origami arms were handmade by John Nilson. Alas, were is the operative word. I have just recently been told that he will make no more. I want to talk about my Garrard 401. This sample was used in a radiogram cabinet and and not been used for decades. It was eventually broken in pieces and Adam Hutnit, previously Pymble Hi-Fi, was able to secure it. Later he offered it to me based on work to be done by him. I pulled it to bits and it was clear that all the oil had dried out during all these years not being used. The main bearing was dry, but since it had not been running dry, it was in near perfect condition, so cleaned and oiled it. The next major thing was the motor, which I dismantled it entirely. It to was dry as a bone but not damaged. Again a very competent clear and re-oiling and it was all fine. Now for the main frame, dust had allowed to settle on it and of course dust will take moisture out of the air and hence we ended up with a pitted surface. But I did not mind that as I had other ideas in mind. The main frame is a large cast and is not entirely free of ringing. There was enough of a gap between the fitted platter and the frame beneath it. This meant that I would add a layer of black acrylic sheet and bond it to the top surface. I won't tell you exactly how I did it, but it created a constrained layer effect that was damping the frame enormously and also gave the 401 a black look. I sold the original bearing to a guy in Mexico to fit to his 301. I on the other hand fitted a new stainless steel bearing from Peak Hi-Fi in England, that came in just under $1000 and that meant it avoided the GST. All in all, it took a little over a year. The plinth I got from Austria and it is multi-layered Baltic birch ply. The bottom is open, it must not be closed and have a cavity resonance. I took the picture below and showed it to John Nilson. He liked that I had the silver arm version and declared it "sexy" and I wonder if anybody here agrees with that? @SPR08Y 1
Joe Rasmussen Posted January 10 Posted January 10 8 hours ago, skies2clear said: No disrespect Joe, but your formula should be 47x3.3/47+3.3 (I know just a typo) If that is the worst mistake I made that day, we shall be safer. And as long as I get 3K08 in the end, nature makes sure of the rest. 1
attunement Posted January 15 Posted January 15 Technics SP-10MK2 turntable • SME 3012 Series II tonearm Technics EPC-205CMK4 cartridge • Graham Slee Accession preamp 10 2
cafe67 Posted January 22 Posted January 22 On 29/9/2024 at 8:01 AM, awayward said: Interested in your thoughts on the Art20 after a couple of weeks use. interesting review of the ART20 https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-93-kalman-r-experience-audio-technica-art20-phono-cartridge-page-2 1
Hydrology Posted January 22 Posted January 22 Interesting new phono stage from Acoustic Signature:- https://www.acoustic-signature.com/products/accessories/phono-preamplifier/tango-mk3/ 2
awayward Posted January 22 Posted January 22 32 minutes ago, cafe67 said: interesting review of the ART20 https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-93-kalman-r-experience-audio-technica-art20-phono-cartridge-page-2 The ART20 seems to produce all the attributes I like in music, it is a shame I’m trying really hard not to spend on Hi Fi gear atm, thanks for the link, very interesting. 2
Gandra Posted January 23 Posted January 23 (edited) On 10/01/2025 at 6:51 PM, Joe Rasmussen said: As noted in the picture earlier, I use an Origami Uniarm which has the same arm tube as PU-7 and hence about the same mass. I think it would be good up to 12g and my own cartridge is 8g. As you guys may know, the Audio Origami arms were handmade by John Nilson. Alas, were is the operative word. I have just recently been told that he will make no more. I want to talk about my Garrard 401. This sample was used in a radiogram cabinet and and not been used for decades. It was eventually broken in pieces and Adam Hutnit, previously Pymble Hi-Fi, was able to secure it. Later he offered it to me based on work to be done by him. I pulled it to bits and it was clear that all the oil had dried out during all these years not being used. The main bearing was dry, but since it had not been running dry, it was in near perfect condition, so cleaned and oiled it. The next major thing was the motor, which I dismantled it entirely. It to was dry as a bone but not damaged. Again a very competent clear and re-oiling and it was all fine. Now for the main frame, dust had allowed to settle on it and of course dust will take moisture out of the air and hence we ended up with a pitted surface. But I did not mind that as I had other ideas in mind. The main frame is a large cast and is not entirely free of ringing. There was enough of a gap between the fitted platter and the frame beneath it. This meant that I would add a layer of black acrylic sheet and bond it to the top surface. I won't tell you exactly how I did it, but it created a constrained layer effect that was damping the frame enormously and also gave the 401 a black look. I sold the original bearing to a guy in Mexico to fit to his 301. I on the other hand fitted a new stainless steel bearing from Peak Hi-Fi in England, that came in just under $1000 and that meant it avoided the GST. All in all, it took a little over a year. The plinth I got from Austria and it is multi-layered Baltic birch ply. The bottom is open, it must not be closed and have a cavity resonance. I took the picture below and showed it to John Nilson. He liked that I had the silver arm version and declared it "sexy" and I wonder if anybody here agrees with that? Great work, the turntable looks gorgeous. From earlier experience with a similar plinth and my 301, I found that motor vibrations still managed to find their way to the tonearm and impact the sound. Hence, needed to go back to my old slate plinth and design a special tonearm stand that sits completely separate from the plinth. I am assuming that you don't have any motor isolation problems with this setup? Edited January 23 by Gandra Spelling 1
PKay Posted January 23 Posted January 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gandra said: Great work, the turntable looks gorgeous. From earlier experience with a similar plinth and my 301, I found that motor vibrations still managed to find their way to the tonearm and impact the sound. Hence, needed to go back to my old slate plinth and design a special tonearm stand that sits completely separate from the plinth. I am assuming that you don't have any motor isolation problems with this setup? it certainly did sound great to me. Edited January 23 by PKay
Joe Rasmussen Posted January 23 Posted January 23 (edited) 3 hours ago, Gandra said: Great work, the turntable looks gorgeous. From earlier experience with a similar plinth and my 301, I found that motor vibrations still managed to find their way to the tonearm... I am assuming that you don't have any motor isolation problems with this setup? Thanks, it is certainly a source of pride and if anybody wants to hear what it sounds like, do please drop in. Vibrations are unavoidable with vinyl and turntables. So this is definitely an area to be aware off. Have you ever considered stacked multi-layer birch-ply like I use? In my case extremely effective. Then mine was finished smooth and piano black so there is no external sign of the ply structure. A lot of 'irregular' features disperses vibration and the layered fibre are good as absorbing energy. Note that the bottom as shown, must not be sealed and I suggest that the feet be about 1" high as you don't want any cavity resonance. At the four corners I used IsoAcoustics feet. Edited January 23 by Joe Rasmussen 7
Gandra Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Thanks for that Joe, good to know if I ever get the urge to do a new one sometime in the future...
e83cc Posted January 27 Posted January 27 (edited) For my 301 I used a hybrid plinth of 40mm bamboo ply and 30mm birch ply laminated together, bottom bamboo, top birch ply.. 301 is through bolted with carbon fibre washers top and bottom. Armboard is isolated from the top layer, bolted to bamboo based with carbon fiber washers. Its a toy, but still good enough to see off my old Platine Verdier with the same arm/cartrage. Edited January 27 by e83cc 6 2
Joe Rasmussen Posted January 27 Posted January 27 That's 70mm, substantial. Able to post a pic from 45 degree angle in front looking down? BTW, what cartridge are you using and how does it sound? That arm somehow looks familiar to me? Fidelity Research?
e83cc Posted January 27 Posted January 27 I built this for fun and provide the ability to run 78's. Arm is FR64S silver wired with B60 base, wooden cartridge is Dynavector Karat Nova 13D. Picture below is Sumiko Talisman B ( NOS ). I have a lot of cartridges. ( and arms ) The FR64S is ok on low compliance. Couple of tips - Motor switching is moved to rear of plinth so you don't have a dirty big switch under the platter and the motor can be left running for the night - the switch on the TT now only disengages the idler wheel. This ensures speed is stable because you do not have to turn the motor off to change a record. To minimise motor noise you have to rebuild them, the bottom motor bearing is inaccessible, and most will be dry. When I rebuilt the motor, new bearings, blueprinting everything - here's the tip when you reassemble the motor you mount it on a soundboard to amplify motor noise. That way you can reduce the noise through - accurate bearing alignment, rotating the top and bottom clamshells, and carefully torquing the motor studs. I also move the earth off the motor bolt to the side so that I can torque the studs evenly. During final assembly I assemble/disassemble probably 1/2 a dozen times until I'm sure the noise is as low as possible. Motor oil used is Motul V300 power racing 0w30, new bearings we're injected with this. 12 1
Steever Posted February 2 Posted February 2 (edited) I’m enjoying music tonight and this cartridge has much to do with that. It is not a cartridge for those seeking a euphoric and relaxing sound. It is a cartridge though, for those seeking absolute detail, an epically wide and layered stage, and razor sharp imaging. It also happens to manage surface noise exceptionally well. A big portion of my small (but growing) record collection is used records from markets, various online stores, and op shops. I use an ultrasonic cleaner on all purchases and while this is extremely effective at restoring records, being what they are, records always have the odd pop and tick. This cartridge is dead silent between tracks and other noises happen so rarely, I’m surprised when they come through. My old Mission/Dynavector cartridge (w Garrett MS stylus) was not forgiving of groove noise at all. Would I buy another? Yes. But, an SPU Gold on a Zeta arm and a Grasshopper on a Townsend Rock arm also gave me wow moments. ART9XA Edited February 3 by Steever 8
Hydrology Posted February 2 Posted February 2 On 10/01/2025 at 3:51 PM, Joe Rasmussen said: The plinth I got from Austria and it is multi-layered Baltic birch ply. Care to mention the company is Austria you got the plinth from?
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