Valve Pre or SS power amp?

[vassp]

I’m at the crossroads.......
 

I play at low to medium volumes. Room size is 3.5 x 6 mtrs. 

 

my speakers are Dali helicon 400s . they need lots of current to open up.  

my current amp is Integrated (marantz ki pearl 140 wpc  @ 4 ohm.) in my opinion they’re a little underpowered for my speakers. 

 

do l buy a 2 ch power amp (Anthem str 500 wpc or parasound jc 5) ) and use the pre from the marantz?

or

do l buy a 2ch valve pre amp ( premaluna evo 400 ) and use the marantz as power amp.?

 

what would give the me the biggest difference in sound  in your opinion? 

 

this would be an immediate move with the thought to Sell the marantz integrated In the future and buy what l need when I’m cashed up. 

 

so stuck at the moment, please chime in.

 

cheers,

 

Billy

 

 

 

[stereo coffee]

7 minutes ago, vassp1503562426 said:

I’m at the crossroads.......
 

I play at low to medium volumes. Room size is 3.5 x 6 mtrs. 

 

my speakers are Dali helicon 400s . they need lots of current to open up.  

my current amp is Integrated (marantz ki pearl 140 wpc  @ 4 ohm.) in my opinion they’re a little underpowered for my speakers. 

 

do l buy a 2 ch power amp (Anthem str 500 wpc or parasound jc 5) ) and use the pre from the marantz?

or

do l buy a 2ch valve pre amp ( premaluna evo 400 ) and use the marantz as power amp.?

 

what would give the me the biggest difference in sound  in your opinion? 

 

this would be an immediate move with the thought to Sell the marantz integrated In the future and buy what l need when I’m cashed up. 

 

so stuck at the moment, please chime in.

 

cheers,

 

Billy

 

 

 

A dedicated power amp is heading in the right direction, particularly one that can be used with a passive volume control.  Keeping your attenuation as simple as possible is the path I would take.  Accordingly you need to look at power amp input sensitivity to be below 1.5v for full output.  

 

[vassp]

45 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

A dedicated power amp is heading in the right direction, particularly one that can be used with a passive volume control.  Keeping your attenuation as simple as possible is the path I would take.  Accordingly you need to look at power amp input sensitivity to be below 1.5v for full output.  

 

What do you mean by attenuation?  Thanks.

[andyr]

4 hours ago, vassp1503562426 said:

 

I’m at the crossroads.......
 

I play at low to medium volumes. Room size is 3.5 x 6 mtrs. 

 

my speakers are Dali helicon 400s . they need lots of current to open up.  

my current amp is Integrated (marantz ki pearl 140 wpc  @ 4 ohm.) in my opinion they’re a little underpowered for my speakers. 

 

do l buy a 2 ch power amp (Anthem str 500 wpc or parasound jc 5) ) and use the pre from the marantz?

or

do l buy a 2ch valve pre amp ( premaluna evo 400 ) and use the marantz as power amp.?

 

what would give the me the biggest difference in sound  in your opinion? 

 

this would be an immediate move with the thought to Sell the marantz integrated In the future and buy what l need when I’m cashed up. 

 

so stuck at the moment, please chime in.

 

cheers,

 

Billy

 

 

I'm confused, reading your post, Billy. 

 

If you think your current Marantz amp is underpowered for your Dalis - then shirley there's no point continuing to use it ... and buying a new preamp?

 

You need a power amp which has much more power (than the Marantz), which you can use with the preamp part of the Marantz!

 

Anthem 500wpc - yes; Parasound JC1 - lovely; also look at a Sanders Magtech (500w into 8 ohms, 900w into 4 ohms).

 

Andy

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by andyr

[sir sanders zingmore]

Very good point Andy 

[stereo coffee]

2 hours ago, vassp1503562426 said:

What do you mean by attenuation?  Thanks.

Attenuation is the gradual loss of signal. Typified by a volume control, its history is presently in its centenary year if we acknowledge its patent inventor Mary Hallock Greenewalt. Marys invention the rheostat   https://patents.google.com/patent/US1357773    was intended not for audio at all, rather to adjust the light display level which she operated by foot whilst playing her visual music called Nourathar   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Hallock-Greenewalt

 

Rarely given the prominence it should in forums, where the opposite gathers absurdly too much attention namely amplification, attenuation remains an essential basis of our enjoyment of audio equipment.

 

Attenuation aside from the form we know so well adapted from Mary's invention, can be achieved with method including 

Voltage Controlled Resistors typified by field effect transistors, but more commonly  opto coupling and transformers .  

 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by stereo coffee

[andyr]

13 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Very good point Andy 

 

Elementary (point!), my dear Watson Trevor. 

 

Andy

 

[Ihearmusic]

How about buying new speakers that are more forgiving and are not so power hungry!?

Keeping the Dalis  will keep you locked in the same position should you want to change your amplifier.

I am sure you could do better than the Dalis.

[vassp]

3 hours ago, andyr said:

 

I'm confused, reading your post, Billy. 

 

If you think your current Marantz amp is underpowered for your Dalis - then shirley there's no point continuing to use it ... and buying a new preamp?

 

You need a power amp which has much more power (than the Marantz), which you can use with the preamp part of the Marantz!

 

Anthem 500wpc - yes; Parasound JC1 - lovely; also look at a Sanders Magtech (500w into 8 ohms, 900w into 4 ohms).

 

Andy

 

Great point, main  reason I was thinking valve pre amp was that the premaluna pre are on special at the moment with a really big discount on them. And l always wanted to go to tube for the more fuller mids. Edit.....but yes it makes sense that l get a power amp

Edited January 5, 2020 by vassp1503562426
To add

[vassp]

1 hour ago, Ihearmusic said:

How about buying new speakers that are more forgiving and are not so power hungry!?

Keeping the Dalis  will keep you locked in the same position should you want to change your amplifier.

I am sure you could do better than the Dalis.

Those helicons are good speakers, and l like the llook of them, but mostly you are spot on. I want to keep them. 

[Misternavi]

7 hours ago, vassp1503562426 said:

 

with the left over money buy a DAC with digital volume control and you have a good system 

 

7 hours ago, vassp1503562426 said:

do l buy a 2 ch power amp (Anthem str 500 wpc or parasound jc 5) ) and use the pre from the marantz?

 

[vassp]

7 minutes ago, misternavi said:

with the left over money buy a DAC with digital volume control and you have a good system 

 

I’m going class A or valve , but thanks for the link.

 

[Misternavi]

13 minutes ago, vassp1503562426 said:

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, vassp1503562426 said:

I’m going class A or valve , but thanks for the link.

ok, you did mention the para sound and Anthem earlier.

 

[Al.M]

Your speakers were $16k rrp and Marantz amp $4k rrp, so the speakers should be more hi end or capable than current amp.

 

A roughly similar or approaching hi end amp is therefore needed to match it.

 

You could squeeze more quality out of the Marantz with better preamp but it is basically not constructed to a hi end enough quality, see internal parts and construction pic below, pretty average looking.

 

A higher quality and end really good different intergrated amp or pre and power combo is needed.

 

The Prima Luna and Parasound preamps should be good enough with suitable power amp. A world class Supratek preamp would certainly get you there http://www.supratek.com.au

 

What is the budget? Used gear would be good value where you could potentially find $3-5k used options that were once $10-15k rrp.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Al.M

[vassp]

1 hour ago, misternavi said:

 

 

ok, you did mention the para sound and Anthem earlier.

 

Class A then a/b.  Didn’t want class D.  That’s what l should’ve said. 

[betty boop]

the helicons are $3900 us speaker from back in the day (decade or so back), 

 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dali-helicon-400-loudspeaker/

 

and review above states some 100wpc amp but using best level of ancillaries 

 

they have some wide appeal but I woudkl suggest matching this is probably the key. so wouldnt recommend a haphazard pick an amp any amp on budget and spec. just because it works fine for someone and their kit, doesnt mean it will work well wth the dali's your integrated plan to use as a pre ? or for matter to your taste ! pre and pwr matching is a pretty important thing can be quite hit and miss in itself. and matching power amp to speakers is an even more important exercise. 

 

if have the mk2's rrp 6300 usd stereophile reviewed these with 100wpc tube amp and suggest they are relatively easy to drive....

 

and "equally attractive qualities when presented with lots of stolid state power..."

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dali-helicon-400-mk2-loudspeaker-page-2

 

"The Helicons are relatively easy to drive, and warmed up nicely when driven by the Music Reference RM-200, a 100Wpc tube amp. But they offered a different set of equally attractive qualities when presented with lots of solid-state power."

 

so pick your poison i woudl suggest and take time at it,

 

the beauty with what presents in either easy driven to taking a bit of power is the choice available... I've heard this speakers myself over the years over a range of amps and combinations ...so go for it....

 

personally i would pass on the marantz ki integrated if finding that wanting(the ki spinners are superb but have always found the ki amps a bit weedy myself) and check out any abundance of other quality integrated amps around. from quite decent in the 100wpc+ to valve or SS to pre power and indeed take time and enjoy the process. if budget is limited .... wait up and enjoy the search and pounce when timing and budget permits ...

 

 

[vassp]

45 minutes ago, Al.M said:

Your speakers were $16k rrp and Marantz amp $4k rrp, so the speakers should be more hi end or capable than current amp.

 

A roughly similar or approaching hi end amp is therefore needed to match it.

 

You could squeeze more quality out of the Marantz with better preamp but it is basically not constructed to a hi end enough quality, see internal parts and construction pic below, pretty average looking.

 

A higher quality and end really good different intergrated amp or pre and power combo is needed.

 

The Prima Luna and Parasound preamps should be good enough with suitable power amp. A world class Supratek preamp would certainly get you there http://www.supratek.com.au

 

What is the budget? Used gear would be good value where you could potentially find $3-5k used options that were once $10-15k rrp.

I think you’re on the money here,  and l am serious considering being sensible vs what my heart wants.

 

My heart  said l want the str power amp and later on get a pre when l have more cash......that would give me world class system that l would be happy with for years to come.
 

but l was thinking tonight that instead of spending silly money l could get the anthem STR integrated  https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/review-anthem-str-integrated-amplifier (400 wpc) and that will get me the more power for a lot less money.  After l sell my Marantz the change over would be a lot smaller.

I’m thinking l could buy the integrated STR , take it home and if it doesn’t deliver l can return it and change over to the power amp , then I’ll just wait and save a for the pre.

Edited January 5, 2020 by vassp1503562426

[betty boop]

 

@vassp1503562426 to be fair re the marantz it does certainly achieve to spec with regards its claims ...

 

 http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/australian-hifi_reviews_2011-05_to_12_2011-07_marantz_pm-ki-pearl_25th_integrated amplifier_review_lores.pdf

 

"TesT ResuLTs

Marantz has a history of under-specifying
the power output of its amplifiers, so I wasn’t at all surprised to see that on Newport Test Labs’ test bench, the PM-KI-Pearl comfortably delivered a minimum 110-watts per channel into 8Ω (both channels driven) and, under the same conditions, a minimum 160-watts per channel into 4Ω and 200-watts per channel into 2Ω. That is, all output levels were well above specification. You can see from the output levels in the accompanying table—and the bar graphs published with the main review—that in all cases the limiting factor on 20Hz-20kHz power output was the amplifier’s performance at high-frequencies (in this case, at 20kHz) but in fact the power output was remarkably constant irrespective of the test frequency. Note particularly the high power levels that are available right down at 20Hz, under all test conditions—and even into 2Ω loads. The Marantz’s ability
to deliver 267-watts at 20Hz into 2Ω, for example, means a continuous current ability of more than 11-amps."

 

Though measurements dont tell everything... just like the anthem, quite frankly i take with pinch of salt its claims.... with a high output consumption of 500W I dont see how on earth will manage 500wpc.  in reality power wise suspect its not going to be that dissimilar to marantz id suggest. however power isnt everything and why as suggested in my earlier post. how actually these things sound with particular speakers in question.... the rest of equipment and ancillaries and most importantly to your ears. especially since as have pointed to with reviews and experience that these arent actually that hard to drive and seem happy with 100wpc+ and a wide choice of amps. so well worth exploring  

[Guest crankit]

Addicted to Audio have the Shiit Freya tube preamp on sale $999, 6SN7 tubes are great sounding

[Al.M]

Audioreview.com user reviews of your speakers give it quite high praise for detail, sweetness, imaging and good bass so you want something to enhance those qualities such as the ribbon tweeter in it. 

 

It looks the part, but there not that many good user reviews of the Anthem 225i amp, there is for the old model 225 giving it 4.1 out of 5 so if correct the new model might be better, but then again maybe not. Ideally you need to try half a dozen or at least several similar priced amps. I havnt heard enough of the latest similar priced integrated amps, but would still doubt they keep up with a well chosen pre power combo especially to your speakers abilities. 

 

$8k rrp buys you a lot of amp options. Something like a $3-4K Supratek tube preamp with ultra high detail and imaging should do wonders for the speaker ribbon tweeter and other drivers, matched with maybe a like  Parasound 23 power amp $3k but you need to try it out somehow.

 

Even the above suggested Freya preamp would be very good at unexpected lower price and you could put more money towards a better power amp.

 

There are some used Vitus 100 integrated amps for $6k ($16k rrp?) to consider in the forum classifieds.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Al.M

[DJGopal]

If your speakers need lots of current to open up, Marantz should never have been on your shopping list.

[vassp]

7 minutes ago, DJGopal said:

If your speakers need lots of current to open up, Marantz should never have been on your shopping list.

I did not know then what l know now, plus l bought the amp for $2500 new so price was a factor too, I did not demo them together because it was not doable at the time so l read the reviews,( the one also linked in this thread) and various Maranz reviews and thought the power would be enough, but the main thing l was not prepared for was how much power these Dali speakers need,

these speakers do require high current amps no question about it. so l did a massive search and 

I stumbled onto this Dali thread one day and learnt that a lot of the guys there are running high power pass labs and similar amps. The consensus was Dali Helicons sound Better with valves ( very expensive ones) and high power amps. 
 

Played my system yesterday and it sounded good, but l want it to sound excellent.  

im not the type to change my stuff for the sake of change, but l do know what l hear.

 

 

[vassp]

7 hours ago, betty boop said:

 

@vassp1503562426 to be fair re the marantz it does certainly achieve to spec with regards its claims ...

 

 http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/australian-hifi_reviews_2011-05_to_12_2011-07_marantz_pm-ki-pearl_25th_integrated amplifier_review_lores.pdf

 

"TesT ResuLTs

Marantz has a history of under-specifying
the power output of its amplifiers, so I wasn’t at all surprised to see that on Newport Test Labs’ test bench, the PM-KI-Pearl comfortably delivered a minimum 110-watts per channel into 8Ω (both channels driven) and, under the same conditions, a minimum 160-watts per channel into 4Ω and 200-watts per channel into 2Ω. That is, all output levels were well above specification. You can see from the output levels in the accompanying table—and the bar graphs published with the main review—that in all cases the limiting factor on 20Hz-20kHz power output was the amplifier’s performance at high-frequencies (in this case, at 20kHz) but in fact the power output was remarkably constant irrespective of the test frequency. Note particularly the high power levels that are available right down at 20Hz, under all test conditions—and even into 2Ω loads. The Marantz’s ability
to deliver 267-watts at 20Hz into 2Ω, for example, means a continuous current ability of more than 11-amps."

 

Though measurements dont tell everything... just like the anthem, quite frankly i take with pinch of salt its claims.... with a high output consumption of 500W I dont see how on earth will manage 500wpc.  in reality power wise suspect its not going to be that dissimilar to marantz id suggest. however power isnt everything and why as suggested in my earlier post. how actually these things sound with particular speakers in question.... the rest of equipment and ancillaries and most importantly to your ears. especially since as have pointed to with reviews and experience that these arent actually that hard to drive and seem happy with 100wpc+ and a wide choice of amps. so well worth exploring  

That’s what I’m concerned about is a sort of sideways step with the STR integrated, as my earlier reply these Dali speakers require high current and are difficult to drive properly 

[betty boop]

@vassp1503562426 seeing in melbourne, why not contact a few retailers, find one that is conducive to helping out, trying a few amps etc. otherwise as mentioned this is just going to continue on as a haphazard approach, buying (especially on reviews), subsequently selling till happen to stumble upon something.

[joz]

From memory a Musical Fidelity integrated may suit well, 250w/8ohm

If you could have a listen to one then pickup a 2nd hand unit if you like the combo, would get more bang for your $$