dbastin Posted April 29, 2021 Author Posted April 29, 2021 On 03/09/2020 at 11:26 PM, PCOWandre said: What's on the inside to attempt to justify four hundred and fifty pounds? This is enlightenting ...
BugPowderDust Posted April 29, 2021 Posted April 29, 2021 11 minutes ago, dbastin said: he has taken and also discouraged him from experimenting on the basis it would be a waste of time. If this is the case, his company and products might benefit from employing some more open minded engineers. hey mate, wrong thread. The thread this commentary goes in is in the Great Debate section of this forum. This is the thread about how a normal switch is just fine for audio.
dbastin Posted April 29, 2021 Author Posted April 29, 2021 7 hours ago, BugPowderDust said: hey mate, wrong thread. Nope, I was responding to your comment .. if you read between the lines, PS Audio is saying they wont be making an audiophile switch because regular switch will suffice, which supports the topic of this thread.
Dropbear67 Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 On 23/12/2019 at 4:43 AM, BigJim said: Perhaps if you have a highly resolving system and you can hear the supposed difference an audiophile switch makes, then go for it. and can make some sort of decent argument about how this is possible, electronically.
davewantsmoore Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 On 28/04/2021 at 10:04 PM, dbastin said: Interesting comments from Paul McGowan He says "computers are sensitive to noise". "Interesting" is being polite, I think. 1
Dropbear67 Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 On 05/05/2021 at 3:53 PM, davewantsmoore said: He says "computers are sensitive to noise". "Interesting" is being polite, I think. Honestly there seems to be a market for this kind of nonsense, so there will always be people willing to fleece others ... Speaking of which I am selling a new range of audiophile class hard drives for storing music.
notchasingrainbows Posted May 10, 2021 Posted May 10, 2021 (edited) Please delete wrong thread* Edited May 10, 2021 by notchasingrainbow Wrong thread
AccuTidal Posted June 22, 2021 Posted June 22, 2021 (edited) My second renolab switch is coming. This time is in black! The price has gone up abit too. Edited June 22, 2021 by AccuMagi 1
genkifd Posted June 22, 2021 Posted June 22, 2021 why not get a Sonore Optical Rendu and Optical Module deluxe to isolate the network noise just before your audio system?
Dropbear67 Posted June 22, 2021 Posted June 22, 2021 4 hours ago, genkifd said: why not get a Sonore Optical Rendu and Optical Module deluxe to isolate the network noise just before your audio system? what does "isolate network noise" mean ? 1
dbastin Posted June 23, 2021 Author Posted June 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Dropbear67 said: what does "isolate network noise" mean ? Network Noise: Is seems apparent to many people that there is something detrimental that is carried across ethernet and can therefore get into audio gear if connected to the network via wired ethernet. This is usually referred to as 'noise' and when it is minimised the effect is lowering of the noise floor of a system, like when power conditioning is used, or grounding. This noise is not something that is audible, but when it is gone sound quality typically improves. Isolation: Using ethernet fibre optic cabling prevents the noise being carried into the audio gear - because it uses light rather than electrical signal to transmit. There is a range of things to consider with fibre optic which all can have an effect on sound quality (SFP modules, type of fibre, length, etc). Galvanic type isolation or radio (wifi) can also be used. However, even noise in ethernet switches upstream and downstream of isolation may impact sound quality, hence the use of low noise power supplies and regulators, higher quality clocks and shielding chassis in switches design for audio. 1
Dropbear67 Posted June 23, 2021 Posted June 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, dbastin said: Is seems apparent to many people that there is something detrimental that is carried across ethernet and can therefore get into audio gear if connected to the network via wired ethernet. This is usually referred to as 'noise' and when it is minimised the effect is lowering of the noise floor of a system, like when power conditioning is used, or grounding. This noise is not something that is audible, but when it is gone sound quality typically improves. Is there any evidence of this whatsoever or is it more "you don't have high enough resolving equipment or a good enough ear to hear it like I do" because it sounds like BS to me ..
davewantsmoore Posted June 23, 2021 Posted June 23, 2021 26 minutes ago, Dropbear67 said: it sounds like BS to me It's possible that "noise" is injected into the system by connecting an ethernet cable.... so we cannot write the whole concept off as BS. .... but the noise itself and the degredation in performance is causes, are also possible to measure. The reason why this rarely happens, is something to ponder.
dbastin Posted June 23, 2021 Author Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Dropbear67 said: Is there any evidence of this whatsoever or is it more "you don't have high enough resolving equipment or a good enough ear to hear it like I do" because it sounds like BS to me .. I don't believe in this subject there is a truth or BS, just what each individual hears and believes, which is unique to them. I suggest the only evidence you need is what you hear and perceive, and being content with that. Beware that trying to reconcile the difference between the science, what you believe and what you hear may drive you bonkers! Edited June 23, 2021 by dbastin 2
Dropbear67 Posted June 23, 2021 Posted June 23, 2021 1 hour ago, dbastin said: Beware that trying to reconcile the difference between the science, what you believe and what you hear may drive you bonkers! maybe.. but our senses and our perceptions are the worst judge out there and are easily fooled. 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: .... but the noise itself and the degredation in performance is causes, are also possible to measure. well tha'ts my question.. I'd like to see the measurements. 2
MLXXX Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 On 23/06/2021 at 12:21 PM, dbastin said: I don't believe in this subject there is a truth or BS, just what each individual hears and believes, which is unique to them. I suggest the only evidence you need is what you hear and perceive, and being content with that. I imagine that view might possibly resonate with at least some of the readers of the Part A, companion thread. However in this Part B thread, I'd think a high percentage of readers would be looking for some hard evidence, as distinct from mere "belief". If a "souped up" ethernet switch can actually make an audible difference with streamed audio, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some audio recordings demonstrating the difference made; and an explanation of the circumstances that would trigger the audible difference. Is such evidence available? I confess I haven't looked for it, partly because, if it existed, there would be no need for threads such as this one! In the absence of hard evidence, we could fall prey to manufacturers putting a different case around an ethernet switch, after making a few inexpensive and inconsequential changes to the circuitry, and selling the "audio-grade switch" at 10 times the price of an ordinary switch. Perhaps in a more genteel and ethical world no manufacturer would dream of engaging in such malpractice. On the other hand, if a small group of audiophiles are begging for an expensive audio-grade "thing", and demand no proof it makes an audible difference, the temptation for a manufacturer to satisfy that craving by putting an existing product into a fancy case, is high.
dbastin Posted June 24, 2021 Author Posted June 24, 2021 24 minutes ago, MLXXX said: Is such evidence available? I haven't seen any. I suspect there would be a lot of debate about methodology for obtaining evidence, but I agree it would be most desirable. I do wonder if there is similar evidence to demonstrate the audible difference between say different amps, or cables. We have specs and measurements taken by reviewers etc, however apparently that does not cut it. And there is probably no accepted way to achieve particular desired outcomes, if there was we'd be able to order gear custom made to suit what we wanted. This is the hobby we are in, there seems little scientific proof of what can commonly be heard. Otherwise manufacturers would not use expert panels to audition and evaluate prototypes during R&D. 32 minutes ago, MLXXX said: we could fall prey to manufacturers putting a different case around an ethernet switch, after making a few inexpensive and inconsequential changes to the circuitry, and selling the "audio-grade switch" at 10 times the price of an ordinary switch This has been done. AQVox, Paul Pang, the Linear Solution. And apparently Bonn8 Nuprime and English Electric are all the same main switch PCB. The problem is, there will be situations where science can not (yet) explain what many people experience ... leaving us to choose consciously or not what to believe. This can apply to many things, not just audio gear performance. I'm not saying this perspective is the only valid one, just something to consider.
MLXXX Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, dbastin said: This is the hobby we are in, there seems little scientific proof of what can commonly be heard. Otherwise manufacturers would not use expert panels to audition and evaluate prototypes during R&D. As this thread is not in The Great Debate of the forum, I'll try to keep my reply relatively brief. There certainly are expert panels to help evaluate speaker system prototypes. Speaker systems tend to sound radically different from each other. Subjective judgments are needed to arrive at the best compromise. With streamed audio, I understand that under normal conditions the data received is an uncorrupted copy of the data sent. So the role of an expert panel would be quite narrow. Presumably, once assembled, members of such a panel would listen out for a random "noise influence" of some kind for audio received through ethernet switch A . And contrast that with a possibly different extent of random "noise influence" for audio received through ethernet switch B. Ideally panel members wouldn't know in advance which ethernet switch was audio enhanced and which was "standard"; and wouldn't communicate with each other when making their assessments of which ethernet switch, in the individual panel member's opinion, was letting through more "noise". If I were organising such an exercise, I'd be inclined to make recordings with identical ADCs of the audio emerging from the two streaming receivers. Once a patch of audio was identified where one ethernet switch allowed a deleterious amount of "noise" to pass through with such intensity that the sound was audibly affected, and at the same time the other ethernet switch blocked the "noise", the pair of recordings of that patch of audio could serve as evidence of the deleterious effect. The expert panel could be played that pair of recordings and asked to assess the severity of the impairment. Edited June 24, 2021 by MLXXX
Assisi Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 8 hours ago, dbastin said: This has been done. AQVox, Paul Pang, the Linear Solution. And apparently Bonn8 Nuprime and English Electric are all the same main switch PCB. Each of the switches quoted do or may have a common aspect in respect of the PCB. Also, there are probably others not listed. Besides the common feature of the PCB, I expect that each switch manufacturer then adds other components to achieve what they consider to be audio performance outcome benefits. Using different switches as I have, you find that there are different results. More importantly and intriguingly I find that more than one switch in the chain improves the outcome. My experience is definitely not unique. At the moment I have six switches in the chain plus other bits such as a optical fibre link. Wonderful outcome. Why? I have no substantive idea. I have no interest in trying to find out why and doing recordings and or measurements. I do not know what is required. All I know is that for me there is enhanced listening pleasure which is what it is all about. John 1
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 24, 2021 Volunteer Posted June 24, 2021 9 hours ago, dbastin said: The problem is, there will be situations where science can not (yet) explain what many people experience Do you have some examples of this? 1
davewantsmoore Posted June 25, 2021 Posted June 25, 2021 9 hours ago, dbastin said: I suspect there would be a lot of debate about methodology for obtaining evidence Not really. It's not that hard if you think about it.... Measurements of audio A (with switch A) .... and measurements of audio B (with switch B ) So.... what "measurements". Wouldn't there be argument about "which" measurements? No. ANY measurements. Anything.... absolutely any evidence of any difference between the signals will suffice. Then .... when some difference is shown, we now know "there is a difference". Is that difference audible? well, that's a different debate.... but.... there is a huge body of knowlege about what to expect with audibility, so it's not like we're poking around in the dark ...... but as I said, that's a seperate thing. Humans have equipment which can look inside atoms, and search for noise radiating from the beginning of the universe. Audio signals are simple. They have magnitude and time, and nothing more... so we can measure differences between them. Now.... It sounded like I just said "it is easy". No. It is not trivial to investigate .... expensive t est equipment and knowledge of how to use it is required. However - the types of people who are building these devices, will be in possession of such test equipment. 9 hours ago, dbastin said: The problem is, there will be situations where science can not (yet) explain what many people experience No - this isn't a problem at all (for what I'm talking about, at least). All that needs to be done is measure the difference between the two signals. If the signals are different the we CAN measure and show that. If we're measuring at the wrong place in the system ..... then measure in a different place..... until a difference is shown. At this point.... many people will shrug and say "well, maybe there's things we can't measure". No... the sigal leaving my DAC, or amp, or whatever is just an electrical signal with current and voltage varying with time. It is quite simple (relative to other things science concerns itself with). Sure, most typical "measurements" of it are not detailed enough to be "proof" of anything...... but that's fine. Use more detailed measurements - they are not unicorns. ------ Now, once we have a meaasured difference..... imagine that difference is teeny tiny. At that point, "science would say".... that's going to be inaudible.... and at that point you could pull out "perhaps science cannot explain why this IS audible" ..... and the answer to that might be "yes, maybe". 3
davewantsmoore Posted June 25, 2021 Posted June 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Assisi said: enhanced listening pleasure which is what it is all about. Indeed. System design 101 says that if components are being affected by "electrical noise"... or "timing problems"... or something, that is coming from the network (or whatever) .... that they should be isolated from that issue.
dbastin Posted June 25, 2021 Author Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said: Do you have some examples of this? This could take us really well off topic, and I'd rather not spiral this thread out of control. I am by far not an expert in that subject, so I'm just going from life experiences. Try googling "science can't explain" ... plenty of potential examples but again the problem of determining if its truth or BS. I came across this ... https://www.livescience.com/11345-top-ten-unexplained-phenomena.html I don't wish to invoke an emotional response .. emotion is probably an example of something we all experience that science can't fully explain at this point in time. Just a thought ... perhaps we seek evidence to quell fear of the unknown? Sorry this is philosophical, these are thought provoking quotes: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/unknown https://www.awakenthegreatnesswithin.com/20-inspirational-quotes-on-the-unknown/ Edited June 25, 2021 by dbastin
BugPowderDust Posted June 25, 2021 Posted June 25, 2021 Let's leave the conversation here to the thread already in the Great Debate: There's no measurements published, seemingly anywhere, that empirically show any value of one, or many, ethernet switches in series on an audio stream. All we have is anecdotal evidence that flies somewhat in the face of deeply established communications and information theory. The other thread is for those who perceive a difference. 1
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