System upgrade - stereo in ht system

[Michal84]

Hi,

 

First of all - hello everyone (this is my first post) and sorry for language mistakes (english is not my first language).

 

I'm happy owner of quite good ht system (listed below). However, i've never been fully satisfied with quality of sound during stereo music playback (precisely, in 2.1 channel - love the REL subs). Moreover, after addition of the surround speakers, I feel that my AVR is struggling with powering the main columns.

 

AVR: Denon Av 4400h

Main speakers: Monitor Audio Silver 300

Surround speakers: Monitor Audio silver FX

Central: Monitor Audio silver 150

Sub: Rel T7i

additional equipment: 4k projector, apple tv4k, ps4 itd...

 

As my AVR has the preout, I'm thinking about adding stereo integrated amp/pre amp + two monoblocks. Target is mainly to improve the sound quality in stereo music playback, however, I would also like to enhance amplification of main speakers in HT. I found Monitor Audio speakers to be very bright and clinical, so adding some warmth would be nice.

 

Right now, I'm thinking about taking two paths:

1. Preamp + amp monoblocks (been thinking about vincent SP100/SP700 hybrids).

2. Primaluna prologue integrated amp.

In both scenerios, preamp or integrated amp will be connected to AVR (in HT with HT bypass mode).

 

Of course, for stereo, I will add external music source (probably some streamer).

 

Main concerns:

1. Does is makes sense at all;)?

2. In scenerio with Primaluna, will this amp have enough power to drive Monitor Audio main speakers in HT (during movies playback)?

 

 

[What Me?]

Hi Michal,

 

Adding stronger amplification might add to the already bright sound your experiencing from the MA speakers.

 

Don't want to sidetrack your thoughts but have you considered changing the speakers for something like a Dynaudio with a beautiful rich sounding tweeter?

[Michal84]

Hi,

 

It crossed my mind, but I would definitely like to stay with MA, at least for now. Not only Dynaudio is out of my budget (I have around 2500$ this quarter for upgrade), but also I really like MA speakers - I'm just not convinced by quality of sound from my AVR. Thanks for the suggestion anyways.

[Wayne Elliott]

@Michal84 Welcome. Not familiar with your Speakers, am familiar with the Vincent SP-T700 mono Blocks and they will give you some Warmth that you are after. Partner with a nice Tube Pre-Amp, and good matching Speaker Cables.

[Michal84]

@initforthemusic, may I ask you, with which preamp have you been using Vincent SP-T700 monoblocks?

[genkifd]

my previous setup was rather similar to yours but much older. MA RS8 with Denon 3808.

 

No matter how i fiddled with the settings within the Denon i could never get a warm sound with bass. A few years ago the Denon died and i was after a more musical HT system. After auditioning about 8 receivers / separates i have determined that most Jap receivers / separates sound pretty similar in regards to music (cold and lifeless to me). the euro brands tend to sound much better (but lack the latest tech). 

 

I eventual went with Primare SP33 (pre) with Electra (power). but imo i could have (maybe should have) with integrated with a HT byypass. the system is now a joy to  listening to music.

 

Currently im after my next dedicated hifi system - i can say my current HT/Music system isnt too bad compared to the systems ive listened to of the past year.

[ScottR]

Hi Michal, you are on a journey that many of us have been through!

 

I run a yamaha advantage 3050 and when paired directly with my MA GS60's, the sound is average at best to be honest. 

 

A few years ago, with the help of the kind folks at Frank Prowse HiFi, i auditioned many power amps and integrated amps and finally settled on a Roksan K3 integrated at the time.

 

Adding a power amp wasn't a solution, as it only amplified the already dry sound that the yamaha puts out.  I found that an integrated with HT bypass gave me the best of both worlds - movies were much improved, but the major benefit is when listening to music through the integrated directly.  

 

I have since moved to a parasound pre / power set up, and couldn't be happier with the results. 

 

The only thing i have done since. is look at a better amplification for my centre channel.  if you are into movies you could / should consider 3 channel solutions as well  

 

 

 

 

[Wayne Elliott]

8 hours ago, Michal84 said:

@initforthemusic, may I ask you, with which preamp have you been using Vincent SP-T700 monoblocks?

I have 6 Pre-Amps. Vincent SA-T8 pairs really nicely with the SP-T700 Mono's. If you can get one upgrade the Tubes, Psvane's work well in this Pre.

 

Good luck.

 

[Guest DrSK]

Many of us have gone through this dilemma.

 

I started with Yamaha 2030 and 5.1 then bought higher end fronts but realised I could get much more out of them. Tried using the AVR preout to a high end power amp but wasnt a better result and parked it for a year as life got in the way.

 

Things got interesting when I found my 10 year old plus Panasonic flagship Blu-ray player's decoded 5.1 analogue outs feeding a stack of old NAD 1980s integrated amps (etc $100 off Gumtree) smashed the modern $2.5k AVR for movies and music. Then got unlucky with the old amps I had being unreliable.

 

Realised that the issue is an AVR is too compromised packing so much into one box at a price point under $3k. It is basically multiple integrated amps and DACs all for a low price compared to components. And that the old flagship Panasonic gear was quite good as it was made before many people had AVRs to decode stuff. 

 

Pulled out the power amp (early Metaxas Soliloquy) again and paired for the fronts with a borrowed Denon Heos as a preamp and the down mixed to stereo output off the Blu-ray to see what happened and was blown away compared to the AVR for music and surprisingly it was a lot better for movies too.

 

Then sold the AVR and 5.1 speakers and ran stereo for a while and went for an Oppo 205 Blu-ray to handle decoding and down mixing a digital stereo output and sent the digital to a Klein Konverter DAC/Pre amp and then the power amp. High end stereo is vastly better than my previous 3.1 or 5.1 for a single user in the sweet spot as centre speakers and subs are redundant for now in a full range system that can reproduce stereo imaging through 180 degrees around you. The Klein is many levels above the stereo anlagoue out of the Oppo which was again many levels above the Heos. 

 

I have since added in rears to match the front speakers and for my budget a carefully selected $100 integrated from the late 1970s early 1980s and taking the rear analogue out from the Oppo.

 

So now running a quirky 4.0 set up with full range fronts receiving the full LFE and prefer it over the movies or any shop HT demo setup. And music is superb in 2.0. Lossless audio on some Blu-ray movies is rediculous. And I occasionally run the rears in 2.0 (rears role off below 50Hz) for music if listening to some pop genre where the base is over done for the iPod market using the second analogue out from the Klein to the integrated amp. 

 

When I need a bigger sweet spot I may fill in a bit with a centre speaker if I can afford to match the speakers and amplification or near enough for family viewing.

 

The Oppo does not decode Atmos but outputs it via HDMI. At some point I may try hacking a soundbar etc to extract a decoded signal I can use or perhaps if the audio is not critical something basic may fill in OK. It will depend on if latency is an issue. Latency was the reason I couldn't even use the AVR to run the rears. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by DrSK

[Michal84]

Guys, thanks for your input, much appreciated. I have now alot to think about ;). 

The last question is - do you think, then going with tube amp/tube integrated will work in home theatre (I know it will in stereo).

 

 

[ScottR]

no reason why not at all. Vincent do a number of integrated amps that have tubes in them.. not sure about HT bypass though!

 

[Bunno77]

1 hour ago, Michal84 said:

Guys, thanks for your input, much appreciated. I have now alot to think about ;). 

The last question is - do you think, then going with tube amp/tube integrated will work in home theatre (I know it will in stereo).

 

 

HT bypass is definitely the way to go.

 

I personally wouldn't use a tube amp (though it will work) for ht bypass unless maybe it was in a dedicated room and not used all that often. It is worth considering cost of replacement tubes especially is it will be used daily like common area. Depending on budget many SS integrateds with ht bypass have dacs/streamers built in which is handy

 

I would also strongly suggest listening to Vincent and just about anything else you can in comparison when doing so. Many fans but I certainly wouldn't own one but if you like it in comparison to others in your budget then happy days.

[Michal84]

Hi,

 

A little update - I went with Primaluna Integrated Dialogue HP Premium. Fell in love with sound from tubes linked with my speakers, so I'm willing to take the risk of using valve amp in both stereo and home theatre system.

However, I still need some streamer (in stereo, I'm using Tidal only) - Primaluna doesn't have integrated DAC. The problem is, I would like to be able to display the information about current track on my tv/projector screen. This is possible now, as I'm using avr as the source for both movies and music playback, but I think that using Primaluna with avr as source is a disgrace ;).

I've searched the net, but I'm not sure if there is any good quality streamer with tidal support, that can display info on my tv/proj screen. I already have both Apple tv 4 and Apple TV 3...

 

Hope you guys can come up with some idea, as this forum been by far most helpful

[MattyW]

I for a time used my AVR into a tube integrated though in the end used a speaker switchbox so I could use a separate DAC into the tube integrated on one input and phono stage for vinyl into the other. That solved the sound quality issues. Just no comparison when it comes to music.

 

That said I plan to sell that off as I really only listen to music on my main sound system in the upstairs living room. Downstairs is really only used for 5.1 sound in movies.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

On 17/12/2019 at 2:55 AM, Michal84 said:

Hi,

 

A little update - I went with Primaluna Integrated Dialogue HP Premium. Fell in love with sound from tubes linked with my speakers, so I'm willing to take the risk of using valve amp in both stereo and home theatre system.

However, I still need some streamer (in stereo, I'm using Tidal only) - Primaluna doesn't have integrated DAC. The problem is, I would like to be able to display the information about current track on my tv/projector screen. This is possible now, as I'm using avr as the source for both movies and music playback, but I think that using Primaluna with avr as source is a disgrace ;).

I've searched the net, but I'm not sure if there is any good quality streamer with tidal support, that can display info on my tv/proj screen. I already have both Apple tv 4 and Apple TV 3...

 

Hope you guys can come up with some idea, as this forum been by far most helpful

I don't know if you are going to find a high quality streamer that has a video output and would do the Primaluna justice so thats a feature you may have to do without for the sake of sound quality.