Wanting to put audio on a separate subnet and use jumbo frames to improve SQ

[frednork]

Hi all, am wanting to put the audio gear on a separate subnet and have started this process about 3 times and spent 4 hours last night looking at google and am normally medium computer savvy but this is just not making any sense to me. I dont even know if it is possible to do it with the gear I have! Ready to pull any remaining hair out.

 

I have been wanting to address the network as I use roon and tidal a lot and as with most people, everybody in the house has a couple of devices which use the internet and wireless. Have seen it mentioned that if the audio servers can be segregated from the rest of the net traffic it may give a small benefit in SQ along with using larger (jumbo) frames.  I dont really want to discuss whether or not you think it will make a difference, I just want to focus on how to do it.

 

Ok first off I have a

TPlink  TD-W8980 modem router - https://www.tp-link.com/au/home-networking/dsl-modem-router/td-w8980/

 

I also have a Cisco switch info here  https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/switches/catalyst-2960-8tc-s-compact-switch/model.html

 

I can log into the router and switch and can do stuff but I dont really know what to do. Is it about vlans? I can make them but dont know how to implement them. networking is very confusing

 

[Telecine]

A VLAN is a virtual network, it is not physically segregated.

 

You probably want to look at Quality of Service (QOS) parameters rather than Jumbo Frames (which is designed to improve the performance of chatty LAN based protocols on a WAN.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Telecine

[frednork]

2 minutes ago, Telecine said:

A VlLAN is a virtual network, it is not physically segregated.

 

You probably want to look at Quality of Service (QOS) parameters rather than Jumbo Frames (which is designed to improve the performance of chatty LAN based protocols on a WAN.

Dont think I want a physically segregated network My understanding is I want to change from all traffic  going everywhere which is the case in a normal home setup to only audio related traffic going to the audio servers. and all other stuff going to everywhere else.

 

The jumbo frames thing I dont totally understand but would like to try it.

 

 

[PositivelyMusicallyGeared]

Here are some pointers on how to configure jf:

 

https://www.tp-link.com/ch/support/faq/910/

 

How to set up vlan:

 

https://www.tp-link.com/us/support/faq/544/

 

.

[davewantsmoore]

28 minutes ago, frednork said:

I dont even know if it is possible to do it with the gear I have! Ready to pull any remaining hair out.

Yes, you almost certainly can.

 

Configure the audio computers to have IP addresses in a new subnet   (ie. not inside your existing subnet)

Configure your router to pass traffic between the your old subnet and the new one you added (assuming you need that - you likely do)

 

Eg.  If you existing network is 192.168.1.x (subnet mask = 255.255.255.0 or /24) .... then put the audio computers on IP addresses in 192.168.2.x (255.255.255.0) .... and set the router up so it knows about these two networks and passes traffic between them.

 

Jumbo?

As long as it is enabled in the router/switch .... then it should be as simple as a config setting in your network card on your computers.

[frednork]

37 minutes ago, PositivelyMusicallyGeared said:

Here are some pointers on how to configure jf:

 

https://www.tp-link.com/ch/support/faq/910/

 

How to set up vlan:

 

https://www.tp-link.com/us/support/faq/544/

 

.

Hi thanks for that, maybe I dont want a vlan, this looks great for separating networks but I still need to access roon from the "normal" network from a variety of devices.

 

28 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Eg.  If you existing network is 192.168.1.x (subnet mask = 255.255.255.0 or /24) .... then put the audio computers on IP addresses in 192.168.2.x (255.255.255.0) ....

This I think I can do

28 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

and set the router up so it knows about these two networks and passes traffic between them.

This is the bit where I get a bit lost, what sort of thing am I looking for in the router. Is it forwarding or route settings?

 

 

[Brett1968]

You will need to setup routing between the subnets

 

 

[frednork]

1 hour ago, Brett1968 said:

You will need to setup routing between the subnets

 

 

Yep, easy for you to say!! Being network challenged I need a hint on what settings I need to look for

[Guest rmpfyf]

The answer lies between @davewantsmoore and @Brett1968. 

 

I'd put together a Mikrotik for you and send it out though the only units I have spare don't do jumbo frames. 

 

Would think this solution likes in your TP-Link router (you could run the subnet through your switch using a VLAN, though maybe not necessary).

 

You might kick off with interface grouping on the TP-Link and give one 'audio' port a different group, setting its subnet etc appropriately and hope the router does routing between the subnets correctly, though there's nothing in that manual about jumbo frames - which means unsupported likely. 

 

I would get a different router that does support as much, plug your modem into that and use a LAN port off of it to run your audio. Then you can set firewalls and routes etc to really shut the route to the audio device down as much as you like.

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, frednork said:

Yep, easy for you to say!! Being network challenged I need a hint on what settings I need to look for

Ok.  I think I have figured it out for your TPLink router.   It's difficult not having the device here (so not sure where to tell you to click precisely), and the manual is not particularly helpful.

 

I think Ric was on the right track.   Interface grouping (Page 31/32)

 

Try this....

 

Create a new interface group (Audio)

Add one or more LAN interfaces to the group  (everything connected to these LAN port(s) will be in the new subnet)

 

Now, under LAN setting, I expect you will be able to setup LAN settings for this new (audio) group.    [See the pic on page 32, where it say sat the top "Group = Default" ..... well, get up a page with these settings for "Group = Audio" somehow.

 

Eg.  IP = 192.168.2.1, subnet mask = 255.255.255.0, DHCP, you could set this up (or just turn it off, and assign the IPs on the audio computer manually).

 

Then setup the audio computer with IP= 192.168.2.x, mask = 255.255.255.0, and gateway = 192.168.2.1

 

... and you should be good to go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

there's nothing in that manual about jumbo frames - which means unsupported likely. 

Most switches support it.

 

TPLink imply all their gear goes.

 

https://www.tp-link.com/au/support/faq/697/?utm_medium=select-local   (This will also provide tips on how to enable it on the PCs)

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Most switches support it.

 

TPLink imply all their gear goes.

 

https://www.tp-link.com/au/support/faq/697/?utm_medium=select-local   (This will also provide tips on how to enable it on the PCs)

 #Winning  

[frednork]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Ok.  I think I have figured it out for your TPLink router.   It's difficult not having the device here (so not sure where to tell you to click precisely), and the manual is not particularly helpful.

 

I think Ric was on the right track.   Interface grouping (Page 31/32)

 

Try this....

 

Create a new interface group (Audio)

Add one or more LAN interfaces to the group  (everything connected to these LAN port(s) will be in the new subnet)

 

Now, under LAN setting, I expect you will be able to setup LAN settings for this new (audio) group.    [See the pic on page 32, where it say sat the top "Group = Default" ..... well, get up a page with these settings for "Group = Audio" somehow.

 

Eg.  IP = 192.168.2.1, subnet mask = 255.255.255.0, DHCP, you could set this up (or just turn it off, and assign the IPs on the audio computer manually).

 

Then setup the audio computer with IP= 192.168.2.x, mask = 255.255.255.0, and gateway = 192.168.2.1

 

... and you should be good to go.

 

This is good, thanks! one small wrinkle is the lan port which I can reaasign to audio interface is eventually connected to the audio servers on the other side of the house and has all manner of other things hanging of it that are not audio. I'm guessing  this is not good....

[davewantsmoore]

22 hours ago, frednork said:

This is good, thanks! one small wrinkle is the lan port which I can reaasign to audio interface is eventually connected to the audio servers on the other side of the house and has all manner of other things hanging of it that are not audio. I'm guessing  this is not good....

If that's the case, then they'll all need to be in the new (eg. 192.168.2.x) network subnet .... so, defeats the purpose.

 

 

If you want to do it the way you're describing (one cable linking all the computer at the other other end of the house... but not all on the same network segment) .....then that is where you need to use "VLAN"s.

[frednork]

God, networks shlt me, I thought I would assign some ips as suggested above to see what would happen,  the servers took up the ip addresses fine but did not work through roon but I could still connect by their window "name" .

 

So I did the interface grouping- set up another subnet called audio

I also did some mac and ip binding

didnt work so reversed all that

 

and nothing changed, roon still didnt work

release renew ip

no change

roon came back today around midday and the renderer is still not connecting and neither is tidal 

Arghhhhhh!

[frednork]

5 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

If that's the case, then they'll all need to be in the new (eg. 192.168.2.x) network subnet .... so, defeats the purpose.

 

 

If you want to do it the way you're describing (one cable linking all the computer at the other other end of the house... but not all on the same network segment) .....then that is where you need to use "VLAN"s.

Ok, I was able to set up vlans but couldnt get them to talk to each other as some things need to be in both

[Guest rmpfyf]

Dedicated router at the end of the line?

[frednork]

6 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Dedicated router at the end of the line?

Can do that.  how are both configured, does one or both do DHCP?

[Guest rmpfyf]

22 minutes ago, frednork said:

Can do that.  how are both configured, does one or both do DHCP?

 

Takes IP address from main router via DHCP

Routes internally to new subnet

New subnet can be DHCP/Not/hybrid

 

You can also firewall some traffic if you like to really tighten it up.

Edited November 18, 2019 by rmpfyf

[Guest rmpfyf]

8 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Takes IP address from main router via DHCP

Routes internally to new subnet

New subnet can be DHCP/Not/hybrid

 

You can also firewall some traffic if you like to really tighten it up.

@frednork do not buy a second router if you're thinking of doing this, you'll want something specialist - and it needn't be expensive.

[frednork]

11 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

@frednork do not buy a second router if you're thinking of doing this, you'll want something specialist - and it needn't be expensive.

I have a few lying around that might suit. Will see how far I get!!

[sloper]

Goodaye all

 

Reading this and am a little confused of the benifit of this on home networks.

limiting devices comunication too each other on a gigbyte network, make that much difference?

The fact the router has to do more processing negate the benifits?

 

regards Bruce

[Guest rmpfyf]

9 hours ago, sloper said:

Goodaye all

 

Reading this and am a little confused of the benifit of this on home networks.

limiting devices comunication too each other on a gigbyte network, make that much difference?

The fact the router has to do more processing negate the benifits?

 

regards Bruce

Quite literally interrupts the device playing audio less often and at regular intervals.

[davewantsmoore]

On 17/11/2019 at 7:47 PM, frednork said:

 the servers took up the ip addresses fine

If you manually assign an IP to a computer, then it will always "take it just fine".... ie. it won't tell you if it's wrong (it assume you get it right).   It just won't work (or work right).

 

On 17/11/2019 at 7:47 PM, frednork said:

but did not work through roon but I could still connect by their window "name" .

I don't understand what you mean.

 

On 17/11/2019 at 7:47 PM, frednork said:

So I did the interface grouping- set up another subnet called audio

I also did some mac and ip binding

didnt work so reversed all that

What didn't work?

 

On 17/11/2019 at 7:47 PM, frednork said:

release renew ip

If you manually assigned IPs to the computers, then releasing and renewing does nothing.

 

On 17/11/2019 at 7:47 PM, frednork said:

no change

roon came back today around midday and the renderer is still not connecting and neither is tidal 

Arghhhhhh!

Did you manually assign IPs to the computer?

Have you set it back to "automatic"?

[davewantsmoore]

On 19/11/2019 at 8:32 AM, sloper said:

The fact the router has to do more processing negate the benifits?

No.

 

If more traffic than the computer needs to know about is arriving at the computers network port, then the computer needs to "think about it"... which interrupts what it would be otherwise doing (playing music).

 

If someone has a system designed around a computer which is sensitive to such things (extra network traffic interrupting it) .... then it might be a benefit.