DanD2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Hi everyone, I've recently found love for music at home again and now I'm obsessed with building a decent home system. I am looking for advice on whether to buy an older Hi end or buy a new Mid range amplifier. My budget is 3k to 4k, a solid state for the convenience and prefers separate pre/power but not fuss. I'm thinking a Krell KSA100 & KRC 3 vs Musical Fidelity M6Si. What are your thoughts? Have you got experience with both? The Krell is over 20 y/o, is it a safe buy - or Will it be a money pit? I'd love to hear your opinions. Thanks
rantan Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) MF M5si is available on special these days for $3K. I had one and it was great and IMO you won't find better unless you spend $5K + Edit. I should add that the Krells are far superior than the MF. I was making a suggestion for the OP if he decided to buy something new. I hope this clarifies my post. Edited October 9, 2019 by rantan 1
Ittaku Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Old amps can still sound magic and be much more affordable than newer ones, BUT at 20 years most amps will be in need of recapping (replacing capacitors), and recapping a monstrous amp like the Krells is usually very expensive. 3
Wimbo Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Ittaku said: Old amps can still sound magic and be much more affordable than newer ones, BUT at 20 years most amps will be in need of recapping (replacing capacitors), and recapping a monstrous amp like the Krells is usually very expensive. Totally agree but no comparison as far as I'm concerned. If its a KSA100, not KSA100s, I'd be in like Flynn. 1
kelossus Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 That Krell would absolutely destroy the MF amp. Night and day..... If you can get an original KSA100, not the 100S, it is a fantastic amp and sounds nothing like the later 90's model Krell's. Pure Class A all the way, it's the real deal. The KSA100 also isn't that expensive to recap. From memory there is only 8 capacitors in the whole unit. The 4 big filter caps will cost around $320 to replace, in parts $400 would be plenty. A tech could recap in a few hours, less if they have done it before. They are very easy to work and quite modular in construction. None of this ME crap when they have to be serviced every 30 seconds at a substantial cost.......and can only be serviced by a select few who have climbed Mt Olympus, spoke to the Oracle and grabbed the golden fleece on the way down. I recently bought a Krell KSA50 MK2. Had been looked after but never recapped. All the filter caps measured higher than the 40mf rating and the bias was spot on. After 35 years of scorching temperatures this thing didn't miss a beat. They used excellent components back then. Sprague filter caps, dale resistors and the fan was reliable too. 7 1
DanD2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Author Posted October 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Ittaku said: Old amps can still sound magic and be much more affordable than newer ones, BUT at 20 years most amps will be in need of recapping (replacing capacitors), and recapping a monstrous amp like the Krells is usually very expensive. Yeah, I was concerned about the recapping and cost involved. I have heard (pardon the pun) that they don’t make amps like they used to. Built like a tank and can last for generations.
DanD2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Author Posted October 8, 2019 @kelossus would you be able to share contact details of the tech that services your Krell? Are you in Melb?
Steve M Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, kelossus said: That Krell would absolutely destroy the MF amp. Night and day... I recently bought a Krell KSA50 MK2. Had been looked after but never recapped. All the filter caps measured higher than the 40mf rating and the bias was spot on. After 35 years of scorching temperatures this thing didn't miss a beat. They used excellent components back then. Sprague filter caps, dale resistors and the fan was reliable too. Thumbs up for the original Krell KSA-50 amp, I use one of those too. Amazingly finessed pure Class A amp on revealing speakers that can show the amps high quality. Lots of things have and gone from my audio collection, but not that one. Here’s a good review on the KSA-50 ...pretty much “as good as anything modern” is the review summary: https://www.tonepublications.com/old-school/krell-ksa-50-amplifier/ While that amp is a unique beast and generally unobtainium, I think it holds true that any amp of that type and cost/quality (around $8K when new), would beat most modern mid-fi amps built to a price point at today’s value or lack there of?? Cheers, Steve. Edited October 8, 2019 by Steve M 1
Ittaku Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 23 minutes ago, DanD2019 said: Yeah, I was concerned about the recapping and cost involved. I have heard (pardon the pun) that they don’t make amps like they used to. Built like a tank and can last for generations. They still do make them like that but the markup is insane. Equivalent amps should have doubled in price in that time but they cost 5x as much. 1
kelossus Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 51 minutes ago, DanD2019 said: @kelossus would you be able to share contact details of the tech that services your Krell? Are you in Melb? Sorry mate I am in Brisbane. Anyone who is remotely handy with electronics and amplifier topology would be able to do it. Just have a look at the picture posted by SteveM. I don't think you could get an easier amp to work on. I agree with the above post. Still fantastic gear out there but the price is exponentially higher than it was. The KSA50 I bought came with a PAM-5 preamp. This thing has a fully discrete MM/MC phono stage in it. Hows that for value for money. 1
Addicted to music Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Hers one for sale on eBay, location NSW.... https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Krell-KSA-50s-Power-amplifier/283561628868?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Daad6a550d66b41c186b500436e7471ca%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D273726336463%26itm%3D283561628868%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2385738&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598
Addicted to music Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 3 hours ago, Ittaku said: Old amps can still sound magic and be much more affordable than newer ones, BUT at 20 years most amps will be in need of recapping (replacing capacitors), and recapping a monstrous amp like the Krells is usually very expensive. The krell KSA 50 isn’t monstrous, Looks can be deceiving from the outside.... as long it’s not been through hell and back (environment consideration) Then it’s worth considering.
Addicted to music Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: Hers one for sale on eBay, location NSW.... https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Krell-KSA-50s-Power-amplifier/283561628868?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Daad6a550d66b41c186b500436e7471ca%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D273726336463%26itm%3D283561628868%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2385738&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598 If I had the money, no hesitation in grabbing this one!
Wimbo Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 10 hours ago, Addicted to music said: Hers one for sale on eBay, location NSW.... https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Krell-KSA-50s-Power-amplifier/283561628868?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Daad6a550d66b41c186b500436e7471ca%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D273726336463%26itm%3D283561628868%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2385738&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598 Thats an 'S" mate. No where near as good. IMO that was their worse series. As mentioned above. 1
Steve M Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 I wouldn’t totally damn the KSA-50s model, it’s still a really nice sounding well built amplifier. Just a bit smoother and maybe not as lit up as the original pure Class A version. I think when Krell went to the sliding bias S series, they put all sorts of spin on it, but truth be told all they did was make the amp run cooler biasing it towards Class AB, making it more efficient albeit less engaging sound wise. 2
Irek Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 There are quite a few very nice amps around $4k on the market. I would try as many as possible before buying anything.
DanD2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Author Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Steve M said: I wouldn’t totally damn the KSA-50s model, it’s still a really nice sounding well built amplifier. Just a bit smoother and maybe not as lit up as the original pure Class A version. I think when Krell went to the sliding bias S series, they put all sorts of spin on it, but truth be told all they did was make the amp run cooler biasing it towards Class AB, making it more efficient albeit less engaging sound wise. Thanks Steve for the clarification on the changes introduced by the S series... There seems to be more S's available on the market than the original or MkII. Is it safe to say that a well looked after KSA-100S at a reasonable price ($2k ?) is worth at least a comparison with a new amp for example a Rotel RB1582?
Steve M Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Yes, I would take the KSA-100s @ $2K any day over the Rotel. One advantage of the S over the original Krell models is that the Ss are much newer, run cooler so better overall for longer life. 1
kelossus Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) The original KSA100's don't even get that hot. The KSA50 MK2 idles in the low 50's. The Pass Labs X250.5 runs at about 52 degrees and its a class AB model. The fan cooled Krell's run cooler than the later FPB series if the FPB's are running full bias. A tube amp heats up a room more than a class A Krell. Those Primaluna HP's with KT150's run insanely hot. Edited October 9, 2019 by kelossus
Wimbo Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 33 minutes ago, DanD2019 said: Thanks Steve for the clarification on the changes introduced by the S series... There seems to be more S's available on the market than the original or MkII. Is it safe to say that a well looked after KSA-100S at a reasonable price ($2k ?) is worth at least a comparison with a new amp for example a Rotel RB1582? Are you talking KSA100 or KSA100S. If you are talking 100S i'll shut up. Sold Krell from 89 to 2015.
Al.M Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) I had the Krell 50s and compared it to the original model at home with several familiar speakers. It was not as good, something lost in the sound, less musical and a little shut in, though had slightly more refined treble. It was generally good and built like a tank 27kg, didn’t run extremely hot to touch. I have a Chinese cloned Goldmund 200w AB that gives both of these Krells a good run for the money for $700 delivered to Oz about 6years ago. Not massively built, 15kg runs very cool and quiet and can still achieve good results. Chamila in Perth built a number of these for customers for about $2kish with new parts and his quality sourced transformers. The website that made them is no longer. Has better treble than both Krells, very clean and sorted, good imaging, with tad less musicality than the Krell 50. Edited October 9, 2019 by Al.M 2
La scala Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 41 minutes ago, Al.M said: I had the Krell 50s and compared it to the original model at home with several familiar speakers. It was not as good, something lost in the sound, less musical and a little shut in, though had slightly more refined treble. It was generally good and built like a tank 27kg, didn’t run extremely hot to touch. I have a Chinese cloned Goldmund 200w AB that gives both of these Krells a good run for the money for $700 delivered to Oz about 6years ago. Not massively built, 15kg runs very cool and quiet and can still achieve good results. Chamila in Perth built a number of these for customers for about $2kish with new parts and his quality sourced transformers. The website that made them is no longer. Has better treble than both Krells, very clean and sorted, good imaging, with tad less musicality than the Krell 50. Supect you had the KSA50S and not the pure class A KSA50. Pure class A power amps can work magic on cone speakers, be interesting to try one for yourself if you get the opportunity again. Good to hear a positive comment re Chamilas amp. Pictured transformer appears humble compared to the KSA50.
Ooogh Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Second hand your options are limitless. Something like this EC AW250r currently for sale might rock your world. 2
Honreekea Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 22 hours ago, kelossus said: None of this ME crap when they have to be serviced every 30 seconds at a substantial cost.......and can only be serviced by a select few who have climbed Mt Olympus, spoke to the Oracle and grabbed the golden fleece on the way down. can you expand on this comment?
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