Ittaku Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, rocky500 said: ASR does ongoing tests on Dacs and he was rubbishing one Dac (plus the readers were all joining in) that was way down the bottom of the list. He also listened to it and compared it to one near the top of his list. He said he could not hear a difference between them. That's astounding. He should be questioning the point of his own measurements himself then. 1
pete_mac Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 9 minutes ago, rocky500 said: Just in the site people are referring too. ASR does ongoing tests on Dacs and he was rubbishing one Dac (plus the readers were all joining in) that was way down the bottom of the list. He also listened to it and compared it to one near the top of his list. He said he could not hear a difference between them. So maybe he is testing the wrong things or the measurements do not relate to what he hears. I think it highlights that not everything that is measurable has an audible impact upon sound quality. Many of the measured differences that pop up in Amir's testing aren't audibly distinguishable, yet they crucify gear which doesn't measure well. Aside from competing in the armchair sport of 'measurement-drag-racing', does it really matter? 1
Stereophilus Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 58 minutes ago, aussievintage said: I agree. I would caution about turning stereonet into a measurement hating zone. I believe the absence of some longer term residents , who were extremely valuable contributors, might be related to this. Anyone who really doesn't like measurements might give some attention to trying to figure out why measurements don't relate to what they hear, and maybe find ways to improve measurement techniques so they do. Ask "Why does that well measuring amp sound bad to me?", "What did they, or what did I, miss?" It's ultimately to our own benefit. If it can be resolved, it will enable manufacturers to bring to market, gear that you will enjoy better. It’s not about hating measurements (or testing, or science). I think we all acknowledge how important it is to have objective information about audio equipment to advance the knowledge of better design and consistency of production. What a lot of people on this forum will dislike is when theory/measurement/controlled testing is presented as more generalised and immutable fact, especially when there is strong subjective evidence or theory to the contrary. This thread is a classic example. “EtherRegen CANT POSSIBLY WORK”; “it must be BS”; “SNAKEOIL”; “MARKETING HYPE”! I mean, it hasn’t even hit the market yet! How can anyone possibly know? 1 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Well it's going to be interesting on this device, isn't it... whilst short-run Ethernet isolation isn't a new thing (industrial, medical) and packet timing is neither new (some TCP/IP audio formats)... no one's really tried to put it in a box for bog-stock Ethernet, and the competing products aren't ground-up designs just more the 'expected' tweaks (special oscillators, LPSU's, etc). I'll be interested to see what's measured. The stuff on leaked noise through Ethernet Swenson's dealt with before and it doesn't take a new box. Proof's in the listening however as many correctly suggest it's always a nice moment when your ears concur with data enough to build an understanding of what's at play. Edited October 9, 2019 by rmpfyf shpelling
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 12 hours ago, was_a said: I use a similar script (for an external drive in my case), although yours is more complex. I too hear audible differences by making the various changes you described. And bios settings are absolutely vital, I've found. But we digress. I've done all that and more... and hope to find that my shiny new buffer/reclock/isolator rig makes it all irrelevant Currently having it rebuilt into my DAC so that there's no glorious clock line cable runs, controlled shielding etc. I'm honestly surprised though that no audiophile OSs include such a script. It'd be cool to randomise tests of different settings etc, run a script, make a guess at what's best and have your OS either tell you 'validated' or 'bullshi-do'...
Guest scumbag Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Actually Amir does do subjective tests and does say that he can hear a difference DAC's. In the recent hatchet job that he did on the DirectStream DAC : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-dac.9100/ Here is a slightly condensed version of his comments complete with speiling mistakkkes (it's all part of his charm). "Listening Tests For subjective testing, I chose to use the recently reviewed and superb Monoprice Monolith THX 887 Balance Headphone Amplifier. This Monolity has vanishingly low distortion and hence is completely transparent to DACs being tested. For the alternative DAC, I used my everyday Topping DX3 Pro 's line out RCA to Monolith. I then used the XLR input to connected the DirectStream DAC. Once there, I played a 1 kHz tone and used my Audio Precision analyzer to match levels using PS Audio's volume control. PS Audio claims perfection there ("bit perfect") so I figured they can't complain about that. The final matching was 0.3 dB difference between the two. ......I immediately noticed lack of detail in PerfectWave DS DAC. It was as if someone just put a barrier between you and the source. Mind you, it was subtle but it was there. I repeated this a few times and while it was not always there with all music, I could spot it on some tracks. Next I played some of my bass heaving tracks i use for headphone testing. Here, it was easy to notice that bass impact was softented. But also, highs were exaggerated due to higher distortion. Despite loss of high frequency hearing, I found that accentuation unpleasant. WIth tracks that had lisping issues with female vocals for example, the DS DAC made that a lot worse. Conclusions ....... The sonic effects are there in my semi-formal tests. Perhaps the older audiophiles including the designer Ted Smith, have lost so much high frequency hearing that the harmonic distortion this DAC adds makes up for some of that and they think they are hearing more. If that is the case, just buy a Jensen transformer and put it on the output of your DAC and you would get the same effect! The fidelity loss here is apparent in both objective and subjective testing. There is nothing to hang your hat on hence the decapitated Pink Panther which leaves no room for such attire...." Now I am going to put it out there that this guy is measuring first then listening. So in fact he might be a victim of cognitive bias.......... Edited October 9, 2019 by scumbag
was_a Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) rmpfyf I've done all that and more... and hope to find that my shiny new buffer/reclock/isolator rig makes it all irrelevant Currently having it rebuilt into my DAC so that there's no glorious clock line cable runs, controlled shielding etc. I'm honestly surprised though that no audiophile OSs include such a script. It'd be cool to randomise tests of different settings etc, run a script, make a guess at what's best and have your OS either tell you 'validated' or 'bullshi-do'... That reclocker/isolator sounds really interesting...And putting it at the end of the chain right before the DAC processor is a good idea. Is this a collaborative effort? In a broad way it's the opposite tact of the EtherRegen where the reclocking starts as early as possible. Regardless, I wonder if these hardware upgrades do make all OS tweaks irrelevant...In my case they've have made me simplify my OS tweaking, as things sound better this way. Similarly, I no longer have to 'tune' the sound by selecting various DAC filters; I'm happy to stick with one or two. So as you're intimating, hardware upgrades obviously have far more influence on playback quality. Yes, I'm also surprised that commercial audio software doesn't include such scripts. At least one that transfers an audio file to SSD before playback. Edited October 9, 2019 by was_a
rocky500 Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Here is the one I was referring to sonci said: I think the owner was pretty clear here, the Dac sounds good, better then well measuring ones, so it seems we are just measuring the wrong things.. amirm replied: So I did some subjective listening tests. I grouped the Wyred4sound Dac 2V2 SE with my Topping DX3 Pro in Roon so they play in sync. I hooked up the (RCA) unbalanced output of the DX3 Pro to Massdrop THX AAA 789. And to give more of a benefit of doubt, I used XLR connection from Dac 2V2 SE to the THX 789. This then allowed me to switch between them using the input switch on the THX 789. I matched levels using Audio Precision. I then went through my reference clips across many genres. There is no audible difference. Matching levels is key. I can make either DAC sound better by increasing its volume. --------------------------------------------------- Link to Dac tests here Edited October 9, 2019 by rocky500
Guest scumbag Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, rocky500 said: Here is the one I was refering too sonci said: I think the owner was pretty clear here, the Dac sounds good, better then well measuring ones, so it seems we are just measuring the wrong things.. amirm replied: So I did some subjective listening tests. I grouped the Wyred4sound Dac 2V2 SE with my Topping DX3 Pro in Roon so they play in sync. I hooked up the (RCA) unbalanced output of the DX3 Pro to Massdrop THX AAA 789. And to give more of a benefit of doubt, I used XLR connection from Dac 2V2 SE to the THX 789. This then allowed me to switch between them using the input switch on the THX 789. I matched levels using Audio Precision. I then went through my reference clips across many genres. There is no audible difference. Matching levels is key. I can make either DAC sound better by increasing its volume. --------------------------------------------------- Link to Dac tests here Seems he only reserves "audible differences" for really bad DAC's like the DirectStream.
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Much as I like to hear about ASR, can I suggest we go back to topic...
Guest Muon N' Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 hours ago, aussievintage said: I agree. I would caution about turning stereonet into a measurement hating zone Balance is what is needed, one extreme or the other is not good IMO, Mark @scumbag I hope you do post results as you find them
aussievintage Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, scumbag said: Funny thing is, I think it is at more risk of becoming a listening free zone. Well, I think that's the way each "side" would see it. It's a pity, because you really can use measurements to help you with your own purchases and upgrades, right alongside listening. Well I do, at least.
Guest scumbag Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Much as I like to hear about ASR, can I suggest we go back to topic... Problem is, there's really not much more to discuss until the units are released. We've had a bit of argy-bargy about the finer points of how music is streamed and buffers and so forth but it hasn't made any headway. Once it is released then it we can start the real argy-bargy.
aussievintage Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Ittaku said: That's astounding. He should be questioning the point of his own measurements himself then. Well, maybe not the point of them, but the methodology.
Guest scumbag Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, aussievintage said: Well, I think that's the way each "side" would see it. It's a pity, because you really can use measurements to help you with your own purchases and upgrades, right alongside listening. Well I do, at least. As I've said before on this forum, I am not afraid of measurements. I've designed quite a few speakers over the years. Generally I measure raw in the enclosure then simulate a crossover, then measure then tweak by ear in the last part. Only once did I try it completely by ear and a few years afterwards finally measured it and discovered it measured really well. A total fluke perhaps or perhaps my listening skills are OK.
aussievintage Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, scumbag said: Seems he only reserves "audible differences" for really bad DAC's like the DirectStream. Maybe you might allow that what he hears is as valid as what you hear, and they don't need to agree.
was_a Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Yes, I agree Scumbag. My issue with websites with agendas is that many 'followers' are hoodwinked into sharing the same philosophy. Which is ultimately destructive to newbies and less-experienced folk seeking good sound quality. Good designers/audio engineers are guided both by measurements and their ears. It should be the same for hi-fi enthusiasts at home. 1
was_a Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 An extra thought: how often do you hear Measurements-Are-All disciples declaring they "can't hear a difference"? This is a huge red flag to me.
aussievintage Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, was_a said: An extra thought: how often do you hear Measurements-Are-All disciples declaring they "can't hear a difference"? This is a huge red flag to me. I presume you mean that they claim to not hear a difference when the measurements are the same? It's always worth turning the the statement around and seeing how it sits. How often do you hear listening-is-all enthusiasts saying they can hear a difference, but refuse to test that ability? See how it appears from each side that the others are fooling themselves? I won't say "being disingenuous ". 1
was_a Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Sure...good point. I guess it's best for individuals to have a balanced point of view. And that can be difficult, given the propensity for some people to make black-and-white, broad declarations - which results in driving 'one side' even further into their camp.
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, scumbag said: Problem is, there's really not much more to discuss until the units are released. We've had a bit of argy-bargy about the finer points of how music is streamed and buffers and so forth but it hasn't made any headway. Once it is released then it we can start the real argy-bargy. Happy to have it quiet here until the listening results, including yours, come in. I am hoping this thread does not become a measurements vs listening debate. Most of us agree that there should be a balance.
HumanMedia Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Ordered. If there is no audible benefit in a week it goes back. The return period is a month. Pretty simple way to hear for myself. Edited October 9, 2019 by HumanMedia 2
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, HumanMedia said: Ordered. If there is no audible benefit in a week it goes back. The return period is a month. Pretty simple way to hear for myself. Did you make the first 2 production batches which sold out in the first hour? If not, looks like, at earliest, a Jan delivery.
BAM Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 26 minutes ago, HumanMedia said: Ordered. If there is no audible benefit in a week it goes back. The return period is a month. Pretty simple way to hear for myself. Most of us will wait for your report. I have an Aqvox switch. It does sound better than my standard switch. Again, I could have returned it if no improvement. I also found that using a decent linear power supply did sound better evan though Aqvox do not believe any gain can be had from this. Worth trying.
gt1482 Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 It seems that AfterDark in HK still has the 2nd batch available and there is a small discount too.
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