UpTone Audio EtherREGEN : Game changer or Hype?

[March Audio]

17 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

This demonstrates that his rig - from data source to his ears - is insensitive. Assuming anything else by inference is poor science. 

. 

No thats not how science works.

[March Audio]

19 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

I'll respectfully offer you the same respect.

 

I can flip MTU, interface on/off, connection speed, cable type, subnet etc - also playing from RAM, kernel builds etc - and it's all audible. Doesn't prove you wrong (unless applying your suggested logic - which I'd not recommend) - just that my rig is relatively sensitive. 

 

 

Then thats really concerning you have something very wrong............or it isnt happening, placebo / bias in action.

[March Audio]

36 minutes ago, was_a said:

Reading the points of view expressed so far - mine included - one word comes to mind: fragmented! (No pun intended).

 

Why are we talking about the merits of pulling out an ethernet cable for local file playback, when the UpTone EtherRegen is designed for streaming?! 

 

And why are some of us dismissing the EtherRegen citing factors downstream of it like ground-plane noise and DAC connections? 

 

Digital playback is a chain of events where every factor is important! That's why professional audio-PC builders use bespoke network cards, USB converters, linear power supplies.

 

Sorry to say that a lot of the opinions here are speculative and not born of experience listening to / building computer audio solutions.

 

 

 

 

I have built many, many computer audio solutions.

 

Pulling the ethernet cable out (and showing no problems) demonstrates just how unrelated the incoming ethernet stream is to whats coming out of the dac.

 

There is not a lot else to say.

[Guest rmpfyf]

8 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Please explain why buffer size is relevant to DAC output jitter.

 

 asynchronous USB transfer mode means that a "downstream" audio device controls when the computer sends data through its USB interface and how much at a time. 

 

No, as whilst appreciating you feel you've got a bone here I don't have the will to have us both further hijack this thread and run you through Computer Science. I'd start with checking up on how interrupts work and reading up on the actual async spec, and understanding how/why the source send rate changes. 

 

11 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Quite correct.  Whats your point?  It still doesnt affect the fact that the DAC is fed from a local buffer and timed by a local clock

 

Which is quite often the same FPGA managing async communications. Put this together with the previous note and you're getting somewhere. There are ways around this though not all DACs employ them - many of the more popular USB>I2S interfaces don't. 

 

6 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Again this makes no difference.  You dont appear understand the principle of the local clock.  The data sits in the buffer and the local clock tells it when to go to the DAC.  The data can arrive at the buffer in a jittery way. It leaves whe the local clock tells it to.

 

Just think of a tank of water being filled in an inconsistent way.  You have your hand on the outlet tap.  You are the local clock.  Its up to you how regularly the tap gets turned on and off.  It doesnt matter how the tank is being filled.

 

Yes, I get Buffering For Idiots though I finished the rest of the engineering degree too. It's a little more complex in principle. 

 

5 minutes ago, March Audio said:

No thats not how science works.

 

Your sample size of 1 proves what then?

 

3 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Then thats really concerning you have something very wrong............or it isnt happening, placebo / bias in action.

 

I'm heartened for your concern, though if it assuages you I'll confirm the differences aren't huge, and nothing is wrong.  Method described in a subsequent post. 

[March Audio]

1 minute ago, rmpfyf said:

 

No, as whilst appreciating you feel you've got a bone here I don't have the will to have us both further hijack this thread and run you through Computer Science. I'd start with checking up on how interrupts work and reading up on the actual async spec, and understanding how/why the source send rate changes. 

 

Explain how the computer interupts affect the data coming out of the local buffer into the dac chip.

[Marc]

Maybe the two of you could continue your discussion via PM please? While civil, I don't think the tangent is relevant or helping the actual topic.

[March Audio]

5 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Which is quite often the same FPGA managing async communications. Put this together with the previous note and you're getting somewhere. There are ways around this though not all DACs employ them - many of the more popular USB>I2S interfaces don't. 

 

 

and?

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 minute ago, March Audio said:

Explain how the computer interupts affect the data coming out of the local buffer into the dac chip.

As said, Alan, no - quite enough for this thread - and I'd neither suggested that interrupts were limited to the PC. 

[March Audio]

1 minute ago, Marc said:

Maybe the two of you could continue your discussion via PM please? While civil, I don't think the tangent is relevant or helping the actual topic.

I will desist but sorry Marc I dont understand how this is not relevant.

 

The efficacy of the EtherREGEN is completely dependant upon its affects reaching through to the DAC.

 

This is dicated by the operations anf functions of the receiving ethernet, the PC, its OS, and ultimately the receiving DAC.  How can discussing this possibly be irrelevant?

 

 

[Marc]

No, the two of you are debating each other and flexing muscles. Enough said.

 

/admin request.

[was_a]

rmpfyf said!

My PC is Linux-based and I keep my media on a local NAS. I've a simple bash script that does the following:

• Copies a file from the NAS to local storage (SSD) and to a RAM disk
• Drops the Ethernet interface completely and/or any other network or interface modifications I'm after
• Applies any filtering/dithering I want to add to the mix of 'options'
• Confirms what I want evaluated an how long of the song I want played
• Randomises playback among the possibilities (can't communicate with the PC whilst this happens so I don't know when the Ethernet interface is dropped)
• Waits for a keypress to continue or a different one to repeat in same order, then
• Lists what was played in what order

 

I use a similar script (for an external drive in my case), although yours is more complex. I too hear audible differences by making the various changes you described. And bios settings are absolutely vital, I've found. But we digress.

 

Getting back to the UpTone EtherRegen: I've seen similar discussions on yet-to-be-released products, where people have dismissed something without listening to it. This is unwise, in my opinion.

 

While there are different levels of knowledge among hi-fi enthusiasts, no one knows it all. Personally I'm often surprised by new approaches to hi-fi, or new products that confound my preconceptions. For that reason I keep an open mind - and open ears.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by was_a

[Stereophilus]

I use the Uptone ISO-Regen (USB device).  The improvements in digital audio that can be achieved with that device are quite impressive.  I have tried it on 4 different DACs of various price points with consistently positive results.  The ASR webpage review of this device is just deaf to anything other than a measurement.

 

On the EtherRegen, I am guarded.  On the one hand, reclocking an Ethernet stream sounds like a step too far.  On the other hand, I have heard improvements in my system from ground plane isolation of my server and optical isolation of my ethernet feed to my server.  I will be interested to read early opinions and research the device further.

 

Computer Audio is still an evolving science, an open mind is essential for the advancement of sound quality.

[Guest scumbag]

Yes so I ordered one of these and it should arrive soon, assuming I have made it into the first run and don't get bumped back to the December one. I'm one of those audiofools who gets swept up in marketing dribble and is very prone to placebo affect. I will happily share my subjective observations with anyone who cares to PM me. 

[Guest scumbag]

39 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

I use the Uptone ISO-Regen (USB device).  The improvements in digital audio that can be achieved with that device are quite impressive.  I have tried it on 4 different DACs of various price points with consistently positive results.  The ASR webpage review of this device is just deaf to anything other than a measurement.

 

On the EtherRegen, I am guarded.  On the one hand, reclocking an Ethernet stream sounds like a step too far.  On the other hand, I have heard improvements in my system from ground plane isolation of my server and optical isolation of my ethernet feed to my server.  I will be interested to read early opinions and research the device further.

 

Computer Audio is still an evolving science, an open mind is essential for the advancement of sound quality.

I would question the honesty of the measurements on that site. He has been caught out borking his tests to get unfavourable results. Amir is a man with an agenda.

Edited October 8, 2019 by scumbag

[Snoopy8]

6 hours ago, scumbag said:

Yes so I ordered one of these and it should arrive soon, assuming I have made it into the first run and don't get bumped back to the December one. I'm one of those audiofools who gets swept up in marketing dribble and is very prone to placebo affect. I will happily share my subjective observations with anyone who cares to PM me. 

You got up this morning to order!  Why not post your results here?  I am sure others will be interested in your findings.

7 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

 The ASR webpage review of this device is just deaf to anything other than a measurement.

 I like the phrase and will use this to summarise them. "ASR has worshippers who are deaf to anything other than a measurement". 

 

We should go back to topic now...

[Guest rmpfyf]

18 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I like the phrase and will use this to summarise them. "ASR has worshippers who are deaf to anything other than a measurement". 

 

We should go back to topic now...

 

It's not exactly OT.

 

Measurements are important, and I look forwards to Swensons whitepaper on this one. His usual posts on lab results are pretty good. 

 

Some things are damn hard to characterise at an accessible level or without very specialist lab equipment - jitter is one such thing - broad measurements are possible, exacting observations of nature beyond aggregate data (which we can hear) are actually quite tough.

 

Whilst Amir's got a place, ultimately it's our ears that make the call.

 

@scumbag doing an A/B is pretty easy - swap from A to B port and hear what you get.

[Guest scumbag]

Actually I ordered it through afterdark in hongkong. The engineering experts on Stereonet have already worked out that it can't possibly do any thing so if it does improve the sound in my setup then it would be pure delusion. 

[Guest scumbag]

1 minute ago, rmpfyf said:

 

It's not exactly OT.

 

Measurements are important, and I look forwards to Swensons whitepaper on this one. His usual posts on lab results are pretty good. 

 

Some things are damn hard to characterise at an accessible level or without very specialist lab equipment - jitter is one such thing - broad measurements are possible, exacting observations of nature beyond aggregate data (which we can hear) are actually quite tough.

 

Whilst Amir's got a place, ultimately it's our ears that make the call.

 

@scumbag doing an A/B is pretty easy - swap from A to B port and hear what you get.

Yes, I know how to test for things like this in my setup. 

[Guest rmpfyf]

3 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Actually I ordered it through afterdark in hongkong. The engineering experts on Stereonet have already worked out that it can't possibly do any thing so if it does improve the sound in my setup then it would be pure delusion. 

Ease up! This engineer is positive on it.

 

3 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Yes, I know how to test for things like this in my setup. 

Sure you do - I just mean swapping the A and B side ports on the unit... And locking your PC at 100Mbps.

[Guest scumbag]

17 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Ease up! This engineer is positive on it.

 

Sure you do - I just mean swapping the A and B side ports on the unit... And locking your PC at 100Mbps.

Didn't mean you. My mind just boggles at the way some people can deduce an outcome on the performance of a device weeks before it has even been released. 

[Snoopy8]

37 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

It's not exactly OT.

 

Measurements are important, and I look forwards to Swensons whitepaper on this one. His usual posts on lab results are pretty good. 

I was referring to the debate about ASR being OT.  I agree measurements are not OT. I am hoping that there is some layman information in the whitepaper but I  suspect much will be over my head.  

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

Measurements are important

I agree.  I would caution about turning stereonet into a measurement hating zone.  I believe the absence of some longer term residents , who were extremely valuable contributors, might be related to this. 

 

Anyone who really doesn't like measurements might give some attention to trying to figure out why measurements don't relate to what they hear, and maybe find ways to improve measurement techniques so they do. Ask "Why does that well measuring amp sound bad to me?", "What did they, or what did I, miss?"   It's ultimately to our own benefit.  If it can be resolved, it will enable manufacturers to bring to market, gear that you will enjoy better. 

[Guest scumbag]

26 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I agree.  I would caution about turning stereonet into a measurement hating zone.  I believe the absence of some longer term residents , who were extremely valuable contributors, might be related to this. 

 

Anyone who really doesn't like measurements might give some attention to trying to figure out why measurements don't relate to what they hear, and maybe find ways to improve measurement techniques so they do. Ask "Why does that well measuring amp sound bad to me?", "What did they, or what did I, miss?"   It's ultimately to our own benefit.  If it can be resolved, it will enable manufacturers to bring to market, gear that you will enjoy better. 

Funny thing is, I think it is at more risk of becoming a listening free zone. The irony is that there are very few measurements being presented on this thread or any other thread on Stereonet. Many of the same people who pooh-pooh the idea of any new device's efficacy would struggle to be able to measure said devices themselves and to understand their results. 

[Ittaku]

It will be interesting to see if his white paper has accompanying measurements, and if there are any, whether they're broken down by the separate subsections they've addressed to show their contributory effect.

[rocky500]

I love measurements myself. Can give a indications of good design, that something is not totally off.

But in the end they do not seam to be what I might prefer, so I found just listening to things is the best way for me. Wrong or right it works for me.

 

Just in the site people are referring too. ASR does ongoing tests on Dacs and he was rubbishing one Dac (plus the readers were all joining in) that was way down the bottom of the list. He also listened to it and compared it to one near the top of his list. He said he could not hear a difference between them.

So maybe he is testing the wrong things or the measurements do not relate to what he hears.