Dankeshon Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 https://darko.audio/2014/12/global-feedback-can-ethernet-cables-make-a-difference/
Guest rmpfyf Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Dankeshon said: Sorry this is wrong, that is the point. We can agree to disagree. This is why Printer, GPS is different totally from music..... Noise creates jitter and time errors. It's not that the signal, Data is lost,it's that the Dac times it wrong. Hang on here, @Ittaku has a point. Consider what Ethernet does - data goes in packets, it's not a stream, and a lot faster than music requires. His 2nd-last post is a good read. By comparison that last link of Darko's is a few minutes of your life you'll never get back. Know the problem you're solving and solutions come easier.
Dankeshon Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 Hang on here, @Ittaku has a point. Consider what Ethernet does - data goes in packets, it's not a stream, and a lot faster than music requires. His 2nd-last post is a good read. By comparison that last link of Darko's is a few minutes of your life you'll never get back. Know the problem you're solving and solutions come easier. Of course I don't talk about the speed of Ethernet???? I talk about timing errors in the prosess of "Digital to Analogue Converter". I think you misunderstood what I meant about timing? It has nothing to do with the speed of internet, tho good bandwidth is positive... Nothing really matters untill the Dac, but here payback is a witch.Lucky for you that can't hear a crappy Ethernet cable... I hear it, and Supras cost me 20 and 25 bucks plus post.
Guest rmpfyf Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, Dankeshon said: Of course I don't talk about the speed of Ethernet???? I talk about timing errors in the prosess of "Digital to Analogue Converter". I think you misunderstood what I meant about timing? It has nothing to do with the speed of internet, tho good bandwidth is positive... Nothing really matters untill the Dac, but here payback is a witch. Lucky for you that can't hear a crappy Ethernet cable... I hear it, and Supras cost me 20 and 25 bucks plus post. We all agree here. What do you think it is about the cable though?
aussievintage Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 8 hours ago, Dankeshon said: Nothing really matters untill the Dac, There is a contradiction here. If you believe this, why worry about the upstream data delivery via ethernet?
Dankeshon Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 There is a contradiction here. If you believe this, why worry about the upstream data delivery via ethernet?The problem with the poor cable is revealed in the Dac.That's the point. I thought I used a wide brush or spraycan.... Metaphor.How hard can it be? Jitter, noise from Router, TV, general power cable salad, subwoofer.m, Laptop.. put poorly bandwidth and no shield twisted strands on top of that...The result is guaranteed mediocre streamed music, and an old cd player or usb stick sounds great compared.But I understand that many don't mind. Music comes out....after all.
Dankeshon Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 The big point.. Nothing matters until the DAC. The Data is intact... Only loss of signal or stuttering. But in the Dac you try to turn digital codes to analogue true sound... And that is highly problematic, even if objectists think it's a walk in the park. It's not, it's very complicated and difficult.It doesn't get better with free cables made from child labour, aluminium and twisted with no shield... It's like asking for problems...It's hilarious that people with mid and high end speakers put crap Lan cable in the wall and router and think they get golden sound out...
Guest rmpfyf Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 @davewantsmoore.... do you think those Mellanox MNPA19-XTR SFP+ cards on eBay are legit? They're like ~$60. It occurred to me that my existing router has SFP (Mikrotik 2011 series); a 30m fibre lead is around $25, all up with transceivers etc it's not more than $100 for the cable, and another $60 for the card. I can firewall the crap out of that interface to really limit what traffic it gets. Max 4k MTU. If one was to go nuts on it without an existing router, you might spend big on a Mikrotik CRS305 or similar - jumbo frames and SFP+. $230. Something without the jumbo frames is less than half that. Amusingly this all costs less than audiophile whatever... and no audiophile would ever swear by it
Dankeshon Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 You can have a buffer and all like the Engineer Ted in PS says, but right in the Dac converting to analogue music the JITTER creeps right back in again in the result.....
Dankeshon Posted September 21, 2019 Posted September 21, 2019 @davewantsmoore.... do you think those Mellanox MNPA19-XTR SFP+ cards on eBay are legit? They're like ~$60. It occurred to me that my existing router has SFP (Mikrotik 2011 series); a 30m fibre lead is around $25, all up with transceivers etc it's not more than $100 for the cable, and another $60 for the card. I can firewall the crap out of that interface to really limit what traffic it gets. Max 4k MTU. If one was to go nuts on it without an existing router, you might spend big on a Mikrotik CRS305 or similar - jumbo frames and SFP+. $230. Something without the jumbo frames is less than half that. Amusingly this all costs less than audiophile whatever... and no audiophile would ever swear by it [emoji3] It's not about the money, tho it's in fact some crazy expensive cables out there. But it's cheap good alternatives, like Supra that the Engineers in Audio Bacon recommend for 20-40 bucks or Bjc or Qed performance, or Audioquest forest.... The point is that theese takes audio performance seriously.... Don't fall into the Snake oil propaganda from the propellarheads. Check for yourself take an old tired Denon cd rack player and compare with the hi Rez on a new good Dac with a freebee cable. (The hi Rez and the new expensive Dac for your pc should sound WAY better, but it doesn't) I've done this myself several times, there is tons of real people both on usb and Ethernet on the YouTube that's done the same.. not only the Audio bacon Engineers... This was how I grapped the difference. My Supras cost me 20 and 27 bucks short and longer.... So before you freak out and scream snake oil! I have analogue rca and speaker cable, and Hdmi that cost me over 120$ each. The 20$ Supras Ethernet is the winner, knock down difference compared!!! This is important since the non believers always say ok on analogue rca and speaker cables/it may be a difference (even if they don't really mean that) but-No!! On 0 and 1ns.... The fact is that the generic Ethernet from the mall and freebees is pure garbage... That's a fact, and it's published by cheap blue jeans cables test on the paper with measurements....
Guest rmpfyf Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 @Dankeshon I'm talking about replacing my copper Ethernet, which is already CAT8 on the last leg, with fibre at a reasonable cost. For what 'better Ethernet' should do, this should be 'best'. There are other potential complications - latency, CPU overheads, etc.
aussievintage Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Dankeshon said: The problem with the poor cable is revealed in the Dac. That's the point. and yet you insist the "nothing matters before the DAC", therein lies the contradiction
Ittaku Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, aussievintage said: and yet you insist the "nothing matters before the DAC", therein lies the contradiction Yes, a while ago I lost what he was even trying to argue. Shrug. 1
davewantsmoore Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 1 hour ago, rmpfyf said: @davewantsmoore.... do you think those Mellanox MNPA19-XTR SFP+ cards on eBay are legit? They're like ~$60. Hmmm... I didn't realise you could get it that cheap. (I figured about $150).
Stereophilus Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 17 hours ago, rmpfyf said: One of these days, when I get my DAC back from service, I'm going to try a SFP (optical) Ethernet card on the PC downstream of a router with SFP and see if an optical connection can be made to rock for not a lot of cash... the price of that SoTM cable is frightening. A few questions on this approach: 1. Would the SFP Ethernet card still be doing some (potentially noisy) conversion? 2. Would this approach potentially introduce more noise into the downstream PC (compared to outboard SFP to Ethernet converters with a low noise power supply)?
Guest rmpfyf Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Ittaku said: Yes, a while ago I lost what he was even trying to argue. Shrug. Go easy. The internet is a broad place. We're not doing too badly for a little Aussie forum when someone from Nordic Europe joins in. I think @Dankeshons point is that all counts, and that a mega dollar DAC downstream of a throwaway Ethernet cable.iant a best course of action. Nothing wrong there. As for the technicalities his/her English is already better than my Swedish... That probably counts for most of us. 36 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Hmmm... I didn't realise you could get it that cheap. (I figured about $150). Hoping they're legit! 28 minutes ago, Stereophilus said: A few questions on this approach: 1. Would the SFP Ethernet card still be doing some (potentially noisy) conversion? 2. Would this approach potentially introduce more noise into the downstream PC (compared to outboard SFP to Ethernet converters with a low noise power supply)? On 1 it'd be straight into the PCI bus, albeit 8 lanes of it, and they chew a little power (probably in the 3W range for these distances at most). Stick it on a riser and power it separately if greatly concerned. Aside from that it's just an Ethernet device as far as the OS sees it. It'll be interesting to see if it's a more resource-intensive one. On the upside I can disable the existing Ethernet ports. On 2 no, it's be much less. No copper whatsoever until the PC, no noise along any cables, nothing. I'm sure Paul Pang will soon charge a zillion dollars for a simple SFP card with the oscillators replaced with cheap Chinese OCXOs and all powered by a multi rail LPS with LDOs on the lot, but fundamentally, in a theoretical sense, this is a step forwards from converters. Being a first step let's all expect some happy fckups though I'll order parts but am DACless for a few months yet. Happy to help anyone local try.
aussievintage Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 1 minute ago, rmpfyf said: I think @Dankeshons point is that all counts, No he specifically says it doesn't
Guest rmpfyf Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 3 hours ago, aussievintage said: No he specifically says it doesn't I'd go with the language different is some, and learning is for everyone.
Stereophilus Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 4 hours ago, rmpfyf said: Being a first step let's all expect some happy fckups though I'll order parts but am DACless for a few months yet. Happy to help anyone local try. Well it sounds easy enough to implement... and I agree with the theory now you have explained it. I would volunteer to use my system, but my audio server solution is not mod-able without voiding the warranty.
Dankeshon Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 No he specifically says it doesn'tEthernet cable is a chain...I say that the convertion happen in the Dac, and for this to be ok you need an ok Ethernet cable.Try for yourself.You may be surprised.And sorry for my bad Norw-english.
Dankeshon Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 WowAs I understand it, packages and data is intact as long as the signal and cable is working also known as Internet... But in the critical part in streaming music where the Dac get it's signal, it's important to avoid noice, EMI, that cause time error and also to have nice bandwidth.... This reason is because noice GET into the Dac where the digital turns into music.That's my findings....
aussievintage Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dankeshon said: This reason is because noice GET into the Dac where the digital turns into music. So use Wifi, no noise from the ethernet cable.
Guest rmpfyf Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 30 minutes ago, aussievintage said: So use Wifi, no noise from the ethernet cable. Noise from radio (principle of operation), speed/latency/packet issues, higher CPU overhead, etc... don't use WiFi.
aussievintage Posted September 22, 2019 Posted September 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: Noise from radio (principle of operation), speed/latency/packet issues, higher CPU overhead, etc... don't use WiFi. Noise from cpu, don't use a computer. Anyway. The poster to whom I replied, and I, were pursuing a line of discussion that said upstream didn't matter, only noise from a cable, therefore no speed/latency/packet issue will make any difference for a properly working Wifi, and using Wifi will remove the cable noise.
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