Streaming over WiFi versus Ethernet Connection

[Ed Sky]

I stream my music from Tidal, using Roon, to a Simaudio Moon 390 streamer/DAC/preamplifier. The issue is my router is across the passage from the streamer so not able to connect directly via Ethernet cable. Also my Roon core (on a MacBook Pro) is connected over WiFi.

 

My question is, would I be getting better sound quality:

1. If I connect my Roon core to the router via an Ethernet cable? (This can be done quite easily by purchasing a MacBook Ethernet adapter.)

2. If I connect my Moon 390 streamer to the router via an Ethernet cable? (This would be much harder to do.)

 

Roon claims to be able to send the data "bit-perfect" to the streamer, so if this is the case then an Ethernet connection shouldn't make a difference? Yet I hear people sing high praises about using a wired Ethernet connection... what gives?

[Bronal]

I can't answer your question from a technical point of view.  All I can say is that I find a fixed-line ethernet connection to be more reliable than wifi, which in my experience is a bit flaky.

[Ed Sky]

1 hour ago, Bronal said:

I can't answer your question from a technical point of view.  All I can say is that I find a fixed-line ethernet connection to be more reliable than wifi, which in my experience is a bit flaky.

Thanks for the reply @Bronal. Fortunately with my setup I can stream 384kHz PCM with no drop outs at all, but this wasn't the case when I was using 2.4G WiFi, only when moving to 5G WiFi.

[Snoopy8]

A wifi signal is subject to external interference, slower and has more latency than wired.  5G wifi is affected more by walls than 2.4G.  

 

Please have a read of this:

https://www.howtogeek.com/217463/wi-fi-vs.-ethernet-how-much-better-is-a-wired-connection/

 

Use wired when you can.  Otherwise, try to improve wifi coverage as best as you can.

[aussievintage]

3 hours ago, Ed Sky said:

Roon claims to be able to send the data "bit-perfect" to the streamer, so if this is the case then an Ethernet connection shouldn't make a difference?

There's your answer.

[Ed Sky]

@Snoopy8 I have no doubt that Ethernet is a superior method of connecting but my question is will WiFi affect the audio quality of streaming where I am not experiencing drop-outs? I can understand that it would with protocols where there are no checksum or parity checks, but it appears that Roon guarantees bit-perfect transmission of files streamed. Hence my question.

 

Perhaps there are other factors at play like clocks, jitter, etc.

[firedog]

Wifi sound vs ethernet is a big argument and there isn't one answer. One could be better for you, and the other for someone else. What is true that you are much less likely to have issues such as dropouts with ethernet.
I'd say just go with whatever works for you. 
If wifi has issues, try ethernet over your electric outlets. 

[Snoopy8]

9 minutes ago, Ed Sky said:

@Snoopy8 I have no doubt that Ethernet is a superior method of connecting but my question is will WiFi affect the audio quality of streaming where I am not experiencing drop-outs? I can understand that it would with protocols where there are no checksum or parity checks, but it appears that Roon guarantees bit-perfect transmission of files streamed. Hence my question.

 

Perhaps there are other factors at play like clocks, jitter, etc.

To answer your question, there is no difference for music streaming between ethernet and a perfect wifi link.  Wifi affects audio quality only when signal is poor, there is interference or is slow.   You happen to be lucky with wifi, with a strong signal and little interference and no dropouts.

[aussievintage]

4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

To answer your question, there is no difference for music streaming between ethernet and a perfect wifi link.  Wifi affects audio quality only when signal is poor, there is interference or is slow.   You happen to be lucky with wifi, with a strong signal and little interference and no dropouts.

Actually most of the time  wifi is fine.  Look at it this way.  If you copy a 3 minute music file across you r local net, using wifi, to another hard drive, it only takes a few seconds, and arrives perfectly every time.    The task of streaming it, over 3 minutes, is a complete doddle for wifi, so only a VERY bad wifi signal will ever cause problems.   Sheesh, I stream video over wifi all the time with no problems.

[Ed Sky]

Thanks for the input @Snoopy8 @aussievintage @firedog ... so it appears that I don't need to fiddle with trying to get Ethernet to my streamer which I guess I'm pleased to hear.

[rand129678]

5 hours ago, Ed Sky said:

1. If I connect my Roon core to the router via an Ethernet cable? (This can be done quite easily by purchasing a MacBook Ethernet adapter.)

If you're not having any issues then there's no reason to change anything.

 

But if you start getting dropouts the very first thing I'd try is hardwire your Roon Core to your router.

 

While endpoints can all work fine over WiFi, it is strongly recommended to have the Roon Core hardwired to the router.

 

The reason is because of the way Roon works, the number of 'hops' involved if everything (including Roon Core) is on WiFi:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/kef-ls50-wireless-unstable-connection/52366/57

 

But until you hear any issues (dropouts) there's no rush to do this.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by rand129678
Typo

[Ed Sky]

7 minutes ago, rand129678 said:

The reason is because of the way Roon works, the number of 'hops' involved if everything (including Roon Core) is on WiFi:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/kef-ls50-wireless-unstable-connection/52366/57

Thanks for the link @rand129678 which provides a very articulate explanation of why its beneficial to connect the Roon core via Ethernet. As you say, if never experience dropouts then then it may not be necessary.

[jeromelang]

I go wired whenever possible.

 

I use ELECOM's Cat8 cable with very good results. Tried various cat6 & cat7 cables from the same company. Dunno why the Cat8 cables sound so much better. It sounds even better when the Cat8 cable is used between the opt broadband receiver and the modem.

[aussievintage]

How can  error free digital transmission can sound different just because it is sent by cable vs wireless, let alone different types of cable?

[Ittaku]

26 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

How can  error free digital transmission can sound different just because it is sent by cable vs wireless, let alone different types of cable?

[ikhuong]

Have a look at this article

https://darko.audio/2018/08/ethernet-or-wifi-which-is-better-for-high-end-audio-streaming/

 

it comes down to hardware design and implementation of each brand and allowed budget range. 

 

in term of data reaching the streamer, there should be no issue, the main concern is 

Electric noise transferred via Ethernet copper wires or noise  generated by wifi signal frequency which subsequently goes into DAC chips no matter how good noise filter implementation in between, (garbage in garbage out)

 

The bitstream from streamer section (renderer) to dac chip is not really bit perfect like data network, it has no checksum to resend a missing bit, so bitstream keeps go on with errors caused by noise significantly, causing jitter and incorrect generating from Digital to Analog sync wave (Chance of DAC chip misinterpreting is real)

 

 

 

The streamer section also generates noise itself by its processor, adding up noise from other parts would affect quality for DAC output.

 

Some manufactures have started to implement fiber sfps on their streamers/render such as Sonore opticalrendu To gain 100% noise isolation out of  switches/routers

 

As a 10k network streamer, I believe Simaudio Moon cares about sound quality and treats both Ethernet and Wifi equally important to gain equivalent sound quality between both methods. If you want to tweak and isolate from source of noise, maybe can consider to have a Sonore optical module and a fiber supported switch to achieve that

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by ikhuong

[Ed Sky]

@ikhuong thank you so much for such a detailed and insightful post. It addresses the question exactly. Also appreciate the reference link which elaborates on the topic.

 

Really an educational post for me, I suspect will be very useful to others who have an interest in this thread.

[aussievintage]

23 minutes ago, Ed Sky said:

@ikhuong thank you so much for such a detailed and insightful post. It addresses the question exactly. Also appreciate the reference link which elaborates on the topic.

 

Really an educational post for me, I suspect will be very useful to others who have an interest in this thread.

 

It is interesting.  What he is addressing is the noise aspect.  I tend to separate the issue of good sound from low noise.  It is certainly true that ethernet cables can act as antennas introducing noise inside the shielding of the equipment to which it connects.  It is also true that a Wifi, or any other computing module, can radiate digital noise to the analogue parts.  A separate DAC always helps with this.

Edited September 6, 2019 by aussievintage

[Pebbles]

I guess it will depend on the set up, I have an Auralic Aries femto version and Auralic recommends wireless connection with this unit. This is what I do , the router is only 3mtrs from the streamer and I have zero problems. I upgraded the router from the ISP's model which gave a lift in SQ 

[Stereophilus]

17 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

It is interesting.  What he is addressing is the noise aspect.  I tend to separate the issue of good sound from low noise.  It is certainly true that ethernet cables can act as antennas introducing noise inside the shielding of the equipment to which it connects.  It is also true that a Wifi, or any other computing module, can radiate digital noise to the analogue parts.  A separate DAC always helps with this.

I think the Darko article is saying the issue of “digital noise” is directly linked to “good sound”.  Or in other words, in a digital source, high frequency electrical noise entering the DAC (eg, from a server or streamer) contributes to increased jitter (equating to reduced sound quality).

 

Wifi modules can increase noise on the digital output (of a server or streamer) if implemented poorly.  The Auralic unit is a good example of a manufacturer acknowledging that Wifi modules generate more noise, but engineering their product to minimise the effect of this noise on the output, to improve sound quality.

 

 

[firedog]

21 hours ago, ikhuong said:

Have a look at this article

https://darko.audio/2018/08/ethernet-or-wifi-which-is-better-for-high-end-audio-streaming/

 

it comes down to hardware design and implementation of each brand and allowed budget range. 

 

in term of data reaching the streamer, there should be no issue, the main concern is 

Electric noise transferred via Ethernet copper wires or noise  generated by wifi signal frequency which subsequently goes into DAC chips no matter how good noise filter implementation in between, (garbage in garbage out)

 

The bitstream from streamer section (renderer) to dac chip is not really bit perfect like data network, it has no checksum to resend a missing bit, so bitstream keeps go on with errors caused by noise significantly, causing jitter and incorrect generating from Digital to Analog sync wave (Chance of DAC chip misinterpreting is real)

 

 

 

The streamer section also generates noise itself by its processor, adding up noise from other parts would affect quality for DAC output.

 

Some manufactures have started to implement fiber sfps on their streamers/render such as Sonore opticalrendu To gain 100% noise isolation out of  switches/routers

 

As a 10k network streamer, I believe Simaudio Moon cares about sound quality and treats both Ethernet and Wifi equally important to gain equivalent sound quality between both methods. If you want to tweak and isolate from source of noise, maybe can consider to have a Sonore optical module and a fiber supported switch to achieve that

 

 

You've given  a good case for what's generally accepted in audio circles. It may all be true.

Unfortunately, there's no evidence that any of this noise makes any audible difference at the output of the DAC. No manufacturer has a measurement that shows it. It's all speculation. And please don't show me some measurement with noise at -130 db level that isn't audible. 
Audiophiles generally do sighted comparisons, which don't give accurate results. If you or I feel more comfortable buying equipment on the basis of a sighted comparison that's okay - we probably prevent "audiophillia nervosa" that way. But the fact is that a vast number of the differences we hear during sighted conditions aren't there under unsighted conditions. 
It defies logic to think that the huge differences some audiophiles say they hear aren't measureable in the analog output of the DAC that has supposedly been compromised by all that noise. 

[ikhuong]

Even Chief Designer of MBL speakers (who design million-dollar speaker systems) mentioned that not everything is measurable in audio (start at 10.30 ) but makes audible difference in a system.  Those talented people will not throw snake oil at their positions to expect to sell their speakers to everyone. The 5% percent of not measurable in audio is very very important as per him, for example changing wire material in tweeter or carbon/plastic resistors. None of those change is measurable but audible different. 

 

Soundstage and timing are not measurable by any equipment at the moment but only by human brains and ears. In DAC, noise can cause timing issue (jitter) of a sine wave creation( the 5% in audio science here), different DACs/ same DAC with different setup can make a same sinc wave shape at the output state but those those waves come with different timing (although they are identical in the curve/shape). Brain is much more complicated then machines and science still does not know everything about human brain 

 

My experience with measurable noise (95%) from a transport is real. With a desktop (Core i9), I could hear a humming noise during music playback, especially when I shutdown my PC, the noise becomes uncomfortable to listeners. If  my DAC (Chord hugo TT2) means to filter all unwanted noise but only pick 1's and 0's to process, I should not hear those noise at all . 

 

Tried my Sonore optical rendu with a cheap wall plug, I could hear a constant background pitching noise. Those noise would be definitely measurable  which is the 95% in audio science and many manufactures can achieve the goal to eliminate them by the using of materials, high quality components or designed treatments

 

The 5% not-measurable is "very very" important which we can consider as wifi signal noise treatment, noise eliminating from upstream of network/routers, and a real low-noise streamer's processor chip or good clock. An excellent streamers would know how to lift our system with those 5% in audio design.

 

I do not think the Ed Sky can pickup much different between wifi or ethernet on the Moon streamer because Moon probably designs them both well, AB test can tell in this case without so much research. Lots of hifi brands do not go to social media to disclose their design. 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by ikhuong

[aussievintage]

4 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

I think the Darko article is saying the issue of “digital noise” is directly linked to “good sound”.  Or in other words, in a digital source, high frequency electrical noise entering the DAC (eg, from a server or streamer) contributes to increased jitter (equating to reduced sound quality).

It also talks about noise in audio circuits, so maybe it's both.

[Guest rmpfyf]

Higher OS jitter with WiFi. Yes it's a measurable thing. It just takes more resources internally for the same data transfer than an Ethernet connection.

 

From a noise perspective there's what's radiated in the line vs having a radio stuck in the middle of your PC/streamer/whatever case. Much can be done to make the former a small thing, the latter is harder.

 

That noise can do a good bit for output jitter much the same way poorly regulated power can. It's isn't a black and white thing, most PCs are inherently so far away from linear power at chip level that noise in power is a bit of a dogs breakfast anyway.

 

Easy way to test if it works in your scenario - open the box, pull the wifi hardware, connect Ethernet and listen again. Pull any spare cabling whilst you're there too (e.g. internal USB headers when not in use).

[Guest rmpfyf]

On 06/09/2019 at 4:43 PM, jeromelang said:

I go wired whenever possible.

 

I use ELECOM's Cat8 cable with very good results. Tried various cat6 & cat7 cables from the same company. Dunno why the Cat8 cables sound so much better. It sounds even better when the Cat8 cable is used between the opt broadband receiver and the modem.

 

Have the same cable - it really does make a difference, doesn't it. Remarkably well insulated probably as CAT8 specs are pretty tight on bandwidth requirements.

 

And it's not expensive, or 'audiophile'. It just works. A win for science