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Gestating large sensitive passive 15" augmenting subs


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On 07/02/2020 at 6:37 PM, BioBrian said:

Any thoughts out there?

Low inductance cable is good for speakers covering any/all frequency ranges.

 

On 07/02/2020 at 6:37 PM, BioBrian said:

I might be a convert!

They're really good.

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Just a quick announcement that twins were painlessly born today, to a badly-presented but relieved BioBrian and his wonderful StereoNetter cohorts. I'd really like to gratuitously thank all staff, but

It's an odd experience when I find someone referring to something I wrote that I can't remember.   When you compare different kinds of subs, there are two experiences. The first is the easy

Both boxes now all trimmed, ready for final sand and varnish. Don't think I'll need DuraTex after all...   Worst problem has been lack of handles to move them.   110 kg each, so wi

On 11/02/2020 at 5:35 PM, BioBrian said:

I know not everybody has faith in this "worst of all possible designs", but hey they're only subs. Are they the foundations of good sound, or the sewers? Vinyl users might know what I mean. Recordings are improving though.

 

Hopefully, the difference between this build and a real gestation is that the fun part will happen at the end.

Noting a bit of EQ won't fix  ;) 

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11 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Low inductance cable is good for speakers covering any/all frequency ranges.

I thought it was a see-saw between inductance and capacitance. As long as the Canare quad-core passes, I'm happy.

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We have closure.

 

Last panel on today. Away with the saws and messy glue, and a guilty RIP to the 12 Chickenfeed toothbrushes who so virtuously had their lives shortened by this project.

 

1173626980_LastpanelonGesties.jpg.e4273df94d94a4151462406724832ff9.jpg

 

Now begins the big cleanup (still a minefield) and seal. And mount. (Rolls off the fingertips so easily).

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11 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:
On 11/02/2020 at 5:35 PM, BioBrian said:

Hopefully, the difference between this build and a real gestation is that the fun part will happen at the end.

Noting a bit of EQ won't fix  ;) 

Couldn't agree more ?

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Both boxes now all trimmed, ready for final sand and varnish. Don't think I'll need DuraTex after all...

 

Worst problem has been lack of handles to move them.

 

110 kg each, so will be about 125 kg with paint, filter, and driver. Chain blocks have been very helpful, but hard to stop greasy chain making marks.

 

516998754_Alltrimmedroughsanded.jpg.4224f4b0e1e667622e826f5d14e095f8.jpg

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On 17/02/2020 at 4:07 PM, BioBrian said:

Worst problem has been lack of handles to move them.

look after your back!

 

As a lazy DIYer I don't get why you built such a complicated box, but I remain in awe of your workmanship!

 

cheers,

mike

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Yes, it's been rather tedious, using slings, ropes, chain blocks, and FEL, but much better than surgery.

 

There is a joy in having done something big, a bit different, and to the best of one's ability. I can't find adequate words to describe it. The end result will be clear to some, I guess. And I haven't even finished yet - carefully saving all the joy for later ?. That is actually a lie - the denouement is a bit ruined by the frustration of the painting saga.

 

The boxes have sort of shrunk now that they're cleaned up - they are both monocoque and framed, and have a certain bouncy, youthful manner. I had thoughts during the build about the braces being a bit light-on, potentially resonant, but now they are held on all edges by the outside skins, all is integral and working together.

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On 21/01/2020 at 2:32 PM, BioBrian said:
On 21/01/2020 at 2:32 PM, BioBrian said:

The question about stuffing in subs - this is still being asked around the forum, and is still unclear to me. With the previous build, 15" woofers in 240 litres vented, we ended up with basically none, as you considered it unnecessary, and possibly a hinderance.

 

Yet every sub build I read about has carpet or eggshell foam or something on the walls, and various other pillows etc inside. But...

 

Some of this would have a dual purpose, one being damping the panels. I'm working on having a very stiff box which won't need this.

 

Fluffy stuffing alters the apparent air viscosity, makes the air behave like it's in a bigger box? My box is big enough not to need this.

 

I can't test the impedance until all is finished, and adding stuffing will be difficult.

 

 

I gather there are quite a few of you out there, following this build. Thanks for hanging in all this time; I hope it's worth it at the end.

 

I've been told on a number of occasions "you're not very good at asking for help", and this might be an example. The quote was in a response to our good Dave, but also a question to the wider readership!

 

Please don't be shy about adding your opinion or experience about stuffing and lining. I'm trying to learn as I go, and cannot ignore all the history of subwoofer building I come across around the traps.

 

I lost some sleep overnight worrying about having lost the opportunity to add felt, or egg-shell foam, etc, and came to the conclusion that it might just add a bit of extra roll-off to the high frequencies in whatever LP (hi-cut) filters I end up using. I've never actually come across a sub with no damping, hence my stress.

 

"The conversation we need to have" didn't happen - discussion here is good, but please PM if you're unsure or shy!

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After an unbelievably tedious amount of sanding etc (couldn't believe it, just doing the round-off of the a driver hole, the paper caught and ripped off a piece of the outer veneer, needing another glue repair and re-shape), the last section got its first coat today. The end-grain in the plywood looks much better now.

 

Another question - how would you paint the insides of the vents black, and how would you do it - eg masking the varnished section off, and use spray can? (Maybe white is not so bad).

 

262865458_1stcoatonbaffles.jpg.2dc6aedb473bc64cc96edf9dc739a854.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by BioBrian
missing word
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6 hours ago, BioBrian said:

I lost some sleep overnight worrying about having lost the opportunity to add felt, or egg-shell foam, etc, and came to the conclusion that it might just add a bit of extra roll-off to the high frequencies in whatever LP (hi-cut) filters I end up using. I've never actually come across a sub with no damping, hence my stress.

IME ported boxes typically have very little damping, and egg shell foam will have no effect at the frequencies this box will run at.

 

mike

 

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Thanks, Mike.

 

It looks as though the bass acts the same in a box as in a small room - futile to try and stuff it enough to make a difference, and have no room to sit and listen.

 

So I guess the conventional padding is mostly for box wall vibration damping, with the additional benefit of cleaning up any stray HF that gets through the filter, or might be generated by the driver suspension, etc.

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On 26/02/2020 at 9:47 AM, BioBrian said:

It looks as though the bass acts the same in a box as in a small room

just a bit different in your case because you have a tuned Helmholtz resonator as the box is ported...but it will behave like a small room in the context that the box (very small room) is too small to have modal resonances...and you want the resonances created by the port interaction with the driver/box volume (the Helmholtz resonator).

 

A colleague who has built many ported boxes doesn't use stuffing in his ported boxes and his justification (for no stuffing) was that he didn't want anything inside the box interfering with his carefully calculated driver/box/port interaction

 

DataBass did some measurements on stuffing/no stuffing/lining of sealed vs ported vs tapped horn

https://data-bass.com/#/articles/5cace1c48c663e0004cd9ce2?_k=1csg8i

 

I hadn't read it in a while, and it was worth another scan:

"It is immediately noticeable in the before and after frequency response of the vented system that some of the larger response issues related to the enclosure resonances and port resonances were effectively damped down and heavily muted. However, the system tuning was dropped and the overall port contribution was lowered quite a bit as was total system efficiency."

 

In the specific test DataBass did, with damping added they got a smoother result 100-300Hz - which should be above where you're using your speakers - provided you run a steep enough low pass - but the port tuning was changed significantly by adding the stuffing!

 

DataBass's final takeout was:

"In general, there will be a sweet spot for most speakers where the system's response issues are improved with a minimum of material, but further addition of material will only serve to further decrease efficiency and output. Unfortunately, finding this sweet spot probably involves trial and error testing for each speaker design."

 

In my case:

  • I added stuffing to my TD18 sealed boxes, as I thought there might be times I needed to run them high - my mid amp died at some stage and for a while the TD18s were working 50Hz to 1.2kHz until I got a new amp. I was amazed how clean the TD18s sounded up high crossing to my tweeters - the stuffing likely helped up that high, but would have minimal effect at 350Hz where I normally l low pass cross them
  • I don't run any stuffing or lining in my T20 tapped horn sub, which has a 48dB/octave low pass at 50Hz, with its typical tapped horn resonance peak around 90Hz. Tapped horns are narrow band devices - they have an upper limit resonance which needs to be avoided.

 

This is an outdoor measurement of my sub, with the plate amps' low pass filters set as high as possible (160Hz) - the peak around 90Hz is expected behaviour from tapped horns, hence I cross at 50Hz

post-112425-0-45456100-1431667506.jpg.dcd5ba894e60f57f35c6bcd3814955dd.jpg

 

 

cheers

Mike

 

Edited by almikel
clarification
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Just a quick announcement that twins were painlessly born today, to a badly-presented but relieved BioBrian and his wonderful StereoNetter cohorts. I'd really like to gratuitously thank all staff, but they'd all been given RDOs. There were some more and less (euphemism alert) moments of support from chains, and some heavy grunting and heaving, but all is well, and I counted 10 toes.

 

1489893320_wallofbasswithheart.jpg.19385ca0838c6eb57f67c1a6db0dd981.jpg

 

So far, not quite the "wall of bass" that one might think - after checking the phase of driver, socket, and cables, I played them full-range, which I thought might be illuminating. There are no filters yet - I'm going to do external passive ones to start with - so playing some of a Prokofiev symphony through them was pretty hysterical! I'm not a fan of large drivers doing midrange anyway, but flutes in the region of their breakup spike (~1800 Hz) were definitely not pretty. A good incentive to get on with raiding the coils, caps, and resistors from my boxes of leftovers. Or, hey, they might just need breaking in...

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1 hour ago, Sub Sonic said:

are those enclosures huuuge? ?

You are right! Quite cuddly though, in their own sort of way - haven't checked out their "bouncy" qualities too much so far, more by good fortune than design.

 

I did the first measurements today, but there's a lot to process before putting it out for comment/advice.

 

The short story is that some stuffing might be in order.

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The impedance curve, FR curve, and "Bass Decay" all show quite a strong phenomenon at 110 Hz.

 

Too hard to access right now over my network, but this Bass Decay pic might mean something:

 

1845983141_2020-03-03GestBassDecaynostuffingsnip.thumb.JPG.58f336e4694a048d4b45eb66236c9bd9.JPG

 

The mike was 1 cm from the dust cap. Program is Omnimic.

 

To me, it indicates an organ-pipe kind of ringing (related to 1.44 m internal box length, although I can't get the maths to accurately clarify my guess - should be 119 Hz?).

 

I'd like to see what a bit of wool does to it.

 

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OK, here are the Omnimic FR and DATS Impedance pics:

 

368351221_GestemptyboxFR0.22V1cm250ms3-3-2020snip.thumb.JPG.446744c9072b4be8a13318863fa2a304.JPG

 

Black is nearfield driver and phase.

Red is nearfield vent.

Both using 0.22 Volts input, 250 ms gating.

 

(Bit of useless gossip: I know it was nearfield, but the conventional 2.83 V produced 99 dB at driver and 111 dB at vent at 20.6 Hz. The back wall was shaking a bit).

 

1631570191_Gestemptyboximp3-3-2020snip.thumb.JPG.26ad158171c77237a3ffcd1d89e31634.JPG

 

The 2 blips at 773 and 1842 Hz are of course out of band, but correspond to peaks in the driver datasheet FR, so no surprises there.

 

The 2 minor ones at 258 and 325 Hz are currently a mystery - related to maybe distance from CONE to walls, or the vent itself??

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wavelength = 343m/s divided by 119Hz = 2.88m. 

1/2 wavelength = 1.44m.

 

The two minor blips 258 & 325 is probably the holy bracing. This will be verified one way or the other with stuffing. 

 

Sorry gotta go. (Doing this from phone in between charters.)

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Tried a few variations on a stuffing theme.

 

2 layers of wool batting across the middle section seemed to work best. More made no difference; batts behind the driver, or in the compartment "above", didn't help anything either.

 

The empty box Impedance shows the 110 Hz nipple; with stuffing it almost disappears (good), and a little lump around 174 Hz moved up to 235. Impedance in the vent area looks to be improved, so I might stick with this.

 

1324233452_2020-03-05GestDATSwithandwithoutstuffingsnip.thumb.JPG.cc492d17cc33369945ee03394ba77455.JPG

 

Also, the Bass Decay shows the 110 Hz problem to have gone. I'm impressed...

 

1479251652_2020-03-05BassDecaywithstuffingsnip.thumb.JPG.0972f27cbb8054ac1f0e0b39d3087d95.JPG

 

What's a bit more obvious here are the blips either side of 200 Hz. Maybe these would change with something behind the driver?

 

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14 hours ago, BioBrian said:

Tried a few variations on a stuffing theme.

 

2 layers of wool batting across the middle section seemed to work best. More made no difference; batts behind the driver, or in the compartment "above", didn't help anything either.

 

The empty box Impedance shows the 110 Hz nipple; with stuffing it almost disappears (good), and a little lump around 174 Hz moved up to 235. Impedance in the vent area looks to be improved, so I might stick with this.

 

1324233452_2020-03-05GestDATSwithandwithoutstuffingsnip.thumb.JPG.cc492d17cc33369945ee03394ba77455.JPG

 

Also, the Bass Decay shows the 110 Hz problem to have gone. I'm impressed...

 

1479251652_2020-03-05BassDecaywithstuffingsnip.thumb.JPG.0972f27cbb8054ac1f0e0b39d3087d95.JPG

 

What's a bit more obvious here are the blips either side of 200 Hz. Maybe these would change with something behind the driver?

 

Would it possibly be caused by some resonance from the driver itself, or perhaps a panel?

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I recall working with a driver once that had similar bumps. Turned out that the pressed metal basket (budget version) having wide "pillars" was resonating and reflecting. 'Cured' it by covering the pillars with 3mm felt.

 

Not sure if this would help Brian.

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Forgot to add:

The stuffing has altered the major impedance peaks. You will have to change the length of the port to return to the ideal BR matched peaks. You should find that they have also lowered.

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Impressive, but how do you even measure this? With higher frequencies you could window the response to cut out wall reflections, but with bass? Even taking the sub outside on a big lawn, you'd still get floor interactions. ?

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Brian doesn't just have a lawn, he has a farm. He can lift it using machinery.  His nearest "wall" is one side of a mountain.  - impressive really, very much worth a visit.

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2 hours ago, Steffen said:

but how do you even measure this? With higher frequencies you could window the response to cut out wall reflections, but with bass?

Omnimic has this Bass Decay section specifically for this job. I'm only fairly new to this function, but It's been very clearly showing the differences with stuffing.

 

I think it has a background noise cancelling skill, as it needs at least half a dozen sweeps to get rid of a whole bunch of spurious stuff on the graph.

 

But the measurements so far have all been "nearfield", where you put the mike right near the dustcap, so the driver noises are proportionally astronomical, compared with room reflections. The nice curves got thus are usually ruined, as you say, as the mike gets taken further away, when room reflections etc start to make themselves a nuisance.

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After settling on the minimal stuffing in both boxes, I proceeded to adventures with the soldering iron.

 

First approximations were done using 0.55 Volts input, 250ms gating, nearfield:

 

Black - No filter

Red - Adding 12 mH in series with driver: "1st order"

Blue - Adding 150 uF-1R across driver after the coil: "2nd order"

Green - Vent only

 

1121114901_Box2filtermedleyvent12mH-150uF-1R.thumb.JPG.a982df7d8253ea3cdd697ba0777e943e.JPG

 

I've seen this before - a "2nd order" electrical setup doesn't equate to a 2nd order acoustic result (12 dB per octave slope). I suspect I'll need more components to make it "4th order", but I'm keen to hear what these guys can "do for me jollies".

 

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On 07/03/2020 at 3:08 AM, STROP said:

Hang on, just dialling in some bass management, see what happens...

 

 

Unknown.jpeg

Ha - very succinct appraisal of this thread there, @STROP.

 

 

 

Image result for cremona double bass builder

 

Things have changed, but maybe the present-day instant gratification isn't all it's cracked up to be. (I was quite fond of the blood stains on these boxes enclosures).

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  • 3 weeks later...

Apologies for going off air - it was one of my pre-install conditions that the rusty RSJ beam across the workshop gets painted, having waited 26 years.

 

This meant that after an initial listening (OMG moment) to these subs, everything got packed away to avoid the revolting rust dust, paint spatter, fumes, etc.

 

My scaffold was all ready, the first problem was waiting for diesel stink to disperse. Then it was all respirator/ear muffs/glasses etc in a very uncomfortable period, spaced according to physical limitations - I guess no further comment needed.

 

744687267_PaintingRSJfirst.jpg.f4bbf23002902e9927850fe8fc2d4115.jpg

 

But on seeing this, I can happily reflect that yes:

 

- I built the crate

- I built the forks

- I built the front end loader

 

Seems like another life back there.

 

The design of mounting brackets has been eclipsed by the problem of how to get these effers up there in the ceiling corners. Some progress today with the finding of shorter "chain blocks", and further, that their long hooks can be replaced with shackles. The problem being that the centre of gravity of the speakers needs to be below the lifting point, otherwise they could spin and crash, with unspeakable consequences.

 

1463962539_Mountingbracketseventuating.jpg.d1a331214f07c724a8fd55851b148977.jpg

 

So the above 'angles' are to fix them to the ceiling; another set of brackets are being prepared for the chain blocks to hoist them up (and down again in the future).

 

Meanwhile, there might have been very exciting new arrival, so - must focus, must focus, must focus...   Brackets - yes, brackets will add to that uplifting thing, won't they?

 

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1 hour ago, almikel said:

at least you have a lifting "thing"

Ha, had to laugh - when this came through I was listening to Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March No 1, with "Land of Hope and Glory".

 

Thing is to always have something to look forward to ?

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@BioBrian

 

Been passing Mountain River for the last four days and have not been able to stop, the virus situation not the reason.

 

Good to see that you are making progress, above and beyond as usual, was not disappointed with knowing the tractor still comes in handy in the "listening room". :x

 

I would assume that you have now heard them in your system and are worth the effort?

 

One of these days I may be able to visit and listen.

 

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1 hour ago, soundbyte said:

now heard them in your system

Not quite as part of the system - just a few minutes of augmenting the chaos of main speakers stuffed behind the couch and in a poor room position. But they do go deep!

 

Can't be long now to get it all together, but you're most welcome as usual, to call in and check progress (or wave the whip, pull the chain; whatever inspires you).

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Got something up at last.

 

693939487_1stGestieup.jpg.4ed498a02cfcf4096ef2e9ac9a663e2b.jpg

 

Not bad for 11 months - wonder if it'll catch on? (Such fun, and character building too).

 

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