Cooksferry Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 This might be HiFi 101 and one of the dumest questions asked on this forum but when connecting speakers to the amp how do you generally view left/right. I've always taken as viewed from my listening position and that is always how i've connected them. However I've had what seemed to be an imbalance problem with one channel seeming louder than the other and more boxiness from the speakers that I thought I should have. A few days back I swapped the speaker cables over so that the right /left designation is as viewed from the rack facing towards my listening chair. The improvement is huge in soundstage and imaging. Prime example this afternoon when I played the mono version of Axis Bold as Love. Where previously mono recordings had sounded hollow and tied to each speaker, now I have a rock solid sound with depth and attack and the speakers just vanished from the equation. So, have I been in error for so many years or is it usually a matter of trial to establish the best response. I have checked and rechecked all my ics and they are correct through the chain. ps-Another big improvement, fitting a pair of Cloth Ears speaker cables. Dont think my wife would view them with approval as they look like a pair of small Boa Constrictors snaking accross the floor, but a big thumbs up from me and a nice step up from the previous QED Silvers.
Gainz Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 From the seating position, right speaker is right channel. Most amps have them on the same side, so speaker cables do not cross over. Perhaps the diference is more to do with your Maheno's than anything else, as long as a speakers polarity is good then the singers/instruments simply 'swap over' in the soundstage. They are a HUGE improvement over QED silvers, and a big improvement over anticables. And I like boa constrictors...
Mycenius Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 analogism;138121 wrote: They are a HUGE improvement over QED silvers, and a big improvement over anticables. And I like boa constrictors... Ahhh... 'Anaconda'... Kari Wührer where are you now...? And, I'll bite, what's an "Anticable"?
little blue penguin Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Si, Cooksferry has RC Taranui3.9BiWire cables which are about twice the diameter of the RC Maheno40 but similar overall wire gauge. Boa Contrictor is a great description of them though. If I was AudioQuest then that's what they'd be called.
Cooksferry Posted November 7, 2010 Author Posted November 7, 2010 analogism;138121 wrote: . Perhaps the diference is more to do with your Maheno's than anything else, as long as a speakers polarity is good then the singers/instruments simply 'swap over' in the soundstage. They are a HUGE improvement over QED silvers, and a big improvement over anticables. And I like boa constrictors... I got the Taranui3.9BiWires. I had noted the improvement using the QED before putting in the new cables. Maybe it has more to do with my room and changing cable routing has compensated for negatives elsewhere.
Shane Hanify Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Gidday Cooks, yep, just checked with my amps. R chan is R speaker as facing them. Outputs are also L and R at the back of the amps facing the amps from the front. Yes. Those c_e cables are something else. I have a couple of input cables (RCA and USB) and a couple of power cables in the mix and I now no longer need to spend $$$ on upgrades. Cheers, Shane.
Gainz Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 mycenius;138123 wrote: Ahhh... 'Anaconda'... Kari Wührer where are you now...? And, I'll bite, what's an "Anticable"? Anticables are solid core, 12 gauge, red enamel speaker cables that look and bend like magnet wire, made/marketed by Paul Speltz. Quite cheap, if you you're into that sort of thing. I guess those Taranui's make my maheno's look like a regular grass snake then... I'm thinking of a man joke about cable diameter but I'll leave it alone.
KevinO Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Is there any chance you had your speakers wired out of phase?
Mycenius Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 analogism;138128 wrote: Anticables are solid core, 12 gauge, red enamel speaker cables that look and bend like magnet wire, made/marketed by Paul Speltz. Quite cheap, if you you're into that sort of thing. Well - you learn something new every day! analogism;138128 wrote: I'm thinking of a man joke about cable diameter but I'll leave it alone. Yes - especially not when Kari's around... :eek: :cool:
Cooksferry Posted November 7, 2010 Author Posted November 7, 2010 KevinO;138129 wrote: Is there any chance you had your speakers wired out of phase? How does that happen? Did a quick test and lured my wife out to the man cave(purely on the level this time ) and played some Eva Cassady vinyl I didnt tell her what she was listening for, just swapped the cables around- her choice was the 'wrong' routing, said it sounded clearer,better(v audiophile)
Crozzy Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 I also upgraded to a set of Cloth Ears cables a few weeks back... just love them... made quite a difference....RC TaranuiV2 high resolution speaker cables Like your description.... Cloth Ears do power cables as well?
Mycenius Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Crozzy;138134 wrote: Cloth Ears do power cables as well? Aye Laddie, I have half a truck of them... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?member=1590386
Hooster Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 "Oh, the humanity". I never leave things like this to chance. If I ever change anything I run a test CD to make sure that phasing and channels are correct. It takes less than 5 minutes and give me peace of mind. It sounds like you had your speakers wired out of phase, Cooks. I honestly hope you have not had your speakers hooked up like that for "many years"...
Cooksferry Posted November 7, 2010 Author Posted November 7, 2010 Hooster;138155 wrote: "Oh, the humanity". I never leave things like this to chance. If I ever change anything I run a test CD to make sure that phasing and channels are correct. It takes less than 5 minutes and give me peace of mind. It sounds like you had your speakers wired out of phase, Cooks. I honestly hope you have not had your speakers hooked up like that for "many years"... I dont think they've been out of phase- always had + to + etc as per factory instructions.All I've done is swap the right channel amp leads to the left speaker and left amp leads to the right speaker(still + to +, - to -) so just reversing the side that the information is coming from. The speakers sound fine and as I said in the original post the difference with the mono recording was quite pronounced with a tremendous centre image now . I would probably achieve the same effect by swapping over the ics leads. For years I've run every thing in my system via the Mapletree line router so I might go back and check that in case there's anything reversed in there. Just went out and used the HiFi News test record to recheck things- system definitely in phase although channels are reversed. I've always used this when setting up TT or cartridge so would have noticed if the phasing was out, kinda hard to miss. The only thing I can think is that reversing the channels is somehow compensating for weird room dynamics. What the hell, if it sounds good why worry.
Hooster Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 "Where previously mono recordings had sounded hollow and tied to each speaker" That's exactly what it should sound like if your speakers are wired out of phase...
Cooksferry Posted November 7, 2010 Author Posted November 7, 2010 Hooster;138172 wrote: "Where previously mono recordings had sounded hollow and tied to each speaker" That's exactly what it should sound like if your speakers are wired out of phase... Yes, but I would have picked that up using the test record, and as i said above I've never misconnected the leads. All that's happened is that I've swapped over the leads at the amp from right to left using the same polarity as per the speaker lead plugs so hard to see how that is going to affect phase. Red to red and black to black would be the same no matter which channel you are connecting to would it not? At the moment going by the test record my channels are swapped side to side but phase is correct. Swapping the channels at the amp shouldn't change phase or am I wrong there.
Hooster Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 "Swapping the channels at the amp shouldn't change phase or am I wrong there." I think you are right, swapping channels should not affect the phase. I hope you figure this out, it is mysterious.
Guest Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 It's possible one channel on your amp or a speaker is internally wired out-of-phase. I once bought a pair of rebuilt Quad 57s that sounded awful thanks to some bright spark wiring one speaker OOP. Took a while to track that down too.
Hooster Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 This is the stuff of nightmares. It makes you wonder how many speakers out there have drivers that have internally been wired out of phase with each other, as in a 2 way system where the woofer is wired out of phase with the tweeter. :eek:
Cooksferry Posted November 7, 2010 Author Posted November 7, 2010 All a bit of a mystery- went back out and changed the speaker wires at the amp to the correct sides and checked- still in phase. Removed the Mapletree line router and checked that out with the ohms meter- all ok. Rechecked all 6 ics in the system and all fitted correctly. My wife and I both feel it sounds better with the channels reversed so that's the way it'll stay for now. Wired correctly the biggest problem was that there seemed to be a bias in volume to the right hand side. Now this was true using earlier amps(Rotel) and speakers(B&W DM220). I used to compensate using the seperate channel controls when I had the Mapletree pre amp but that I no longer have. My feeling was this was/is a room problem as the right speaker is close to a large, long window while the left is beside a tall rack holding around 1000cds and fixed to an internal wall. I know when i was using the B&Ws alot of the bass on the left seemed to move into the wall, the further left I moved the better it became. Due to the size of my room and and all the software jammed in, moving the speakers isn't an option, but maybe swapping the channels over at the amp is somehow balancing out the rooms bad points, or at least offering an improvement. Its about the only theory I have left and it cant do any harm.
Guest Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Hooster;138187 wrote: This is the stuff of nightmares. It makes you wonder how many speakers out there have drivers that have been wired out of phase with each other, as in a 2 way system where the woofer is wired out of phase with the tweeter. :eek: Some designers do that deliberately ???
Hooster Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 michael w;138190 wrote: Some designers do that deliberately ??? No, it would be due to a mistake in the manufacturing process. I have read at least one review of speakers where the reviewer felt that they just did not sound right, sent them back to be checked and it turned out that one pair was wired out of phase. I have never heard of speakers that were wired out of phase on purpose...
rumblefish1553552747 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 A Musican brother of mine sat down to listen to my system in its latest incarnation and with in a minute said the drummers solo was going right to left when it should be left to right.i swapped the speaker cables around and solo went the 'right way' He said to him it sounded 'more natural'.I had to agree
Guest Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 I vaguely remember some old three-way designs that wired their midrange drivers OOP relative to their tweeters and bass drivers (eg, AR 3a ?) and some speakers had their tweeters OOP to compensate for low order cross-overs.
Electra Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 I have a simple question to ask - are you leads correctly terminated? As in, they have not been inadvertently marked incorrectly so that on one end its red-black, but on the other end, black-red? I was once having some B&W 801D's demo'd to me, on some fairly high end Plinius gear, and kept telling the sales person they sounded terrible, lacking in bass, and no imaging. The Proac D100's he bought in to follow sounded even worse ( as Proac's do to my ears ) and it was not till I went to have a close look at the cables and found that it was incorrectly terminated. Factory Nordost, Incorrectly terminated. It happens. The 801's didnt sound great to me even once they were in phase though, to be honest! not for the money, at least.
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