Plasma's and Gaming

[Draken]

So as i've been reading most of you like plasma over LCD/LED. Im still not sure why :confused: I have only ever seen one plasma i'd consider buying - The Samsung 50/58" Series 7000 - the picture on this was amazing but i have some questions.

1. Are games ok to play on a plasma - i dont play much but i still play.

2. Are plasma's as reliable as LCD's as having worked for a retail store alot of Pana and Samsung plasmas came back for servicing and the series 7000 samsung we had on display had a random line running down the side 3 days out of the box!

I've always been a Sony man and we had at max maybe 6 units ever come back for servicing in the 4.5 years i worked at dick smith!

 

so im kinda worried that a plasma wont last as long and wont like my gaming !

 

What would you suggest as the picture on that sammy was just so so good!

[Ernie1553552694]

Well hardly any manufacturer makes $10K tellies anymore, at least not pitched at domestic consumption. As a result, don't expect a heritage item like your dad's Phillips K9 to be passed down as a generational heirloom.

 

Whatever you get, an extended warranty makes sense now. (Said the troll zipping up his Nomex jumpsuit).

[Draken]

yeah i would get an Extended warranty anyway. So what would be better that Samsung i mentioned or the Pana TH-P50VT20Z ?

anyone know where they have the Panasonic set-up nicely for me to go have a look?

Also what does ISF mean?

[Tony Davey]

Image Science Foundation (or thereabouts), pretty much expert calibration for your display with accurate colours, contrast, brightness, grey scale etc. Stuff you just can't do without the proper training and calibration tools.

 

Ofcourse Masterpiece will probably have a better explaination as what he does

[Marantz]

I have an old Pana Plasma PV7 that I use a lot for gaming. No issues for me at all as I was initially concerned about screen burn.

You're covered under the CGA so you can save your money on an extended warranty.

[Ernie1553552694]

 

marantz;133190 wrote:

I have an old Pana Plasma PV7 that I use a lot for gaming. No issues for me at all as I was initially concerned about screen burn.

 

You're covered under the CGA so you can save your money on an extended warranty.

 

Everyone is looking hard at price points these days, and such as the market is, manufacturers have had to respond by designing and building to those price points. You takes your chances.

[Draken]

So would that panasonic be a good choice wont be getting one till next year after my wedding so should come down by then

[AgrAde]

Occasional gaming is perfectly fine for a plasma. I'd reccommend a plasma if 1/3 of the use is for games.

 

I'd reccommend the vt20. People have started putting them on special so you can get them for a reasonable price more easily. It's head and shoulders above the c7000 samsung. They're only in 50" at the moment here but we should have the 54" and 65" in time for Christmas if you wanted to wait for something bigger.

 

The only way you'll be convinced on a plasma is by spending time with a good one then trying to go back to LCD. I still wasn't convinced on my first one when I got mine home. It's all about the better response times. They preserve subtle colour and texture during movement, and it's a pleasure to have 1080p... And still have 1080p worth of detail when there are things moving.

 

I had a v10 that was fantastic, then a c7000 that was... Fine. I look forward to a Christmas deal on a large vt20.

[Hopper1553552708]

My PV7 plasma gets absolutely thrashed with games! I'm talking 8-10 hour sessions, 2 years so far.

 

Sometimes when I switch off there is a small amount of ghosting, but I have never noticed any permanent issues.

[Electra]

I used to game lots on my Pio 508LX plasma. Never had a problem. This with with the PC connected playing Battlefield2, which had lots of static stuff on the display. I tried using it connected to my 46" LCD in the bedroom and cant play, too much motion smearing. Just horrible.

 

 

AgrAde;133205 wrote:

 

The only way you'll be convinced on a plasma is by spending time with a good one then trying to go back to LCD. I still wasn't convinced on my first one when I got mine home. It's all about the better response times. They preserve subtle colour and texture during movement, and it's a pleasure to have 1080p... And still have 1080p worth of detail when there are things moving.

 

Indeed. My Pioneer is so far superior ( even though its nearing 3 years old now I think ) than my Bravia 46EX710, that if I had not won the sony, I would be very disappointed. This is not limited to Sony LCD's either, I just dont like LCDs to watach.

[Draken]

 

too_tall;133217 wrote:

I used to game lots on my Pio 508LX plasma. Never had a problem. This with with the PC connected playing Battlefield2, which had lots of static stuff on the display. I tried using it connected to my 46" LCD in the bedroom and cant play, too much motion smearing. Just horrible.

 

 

 

Indeed. My Pioneer is so far superior ( even though its nearing 3 years old now I think ) than my Bravia 46EX710, that if I had not won the sony, I would be very disappointed. This is not limited to Sony LCD's either, I just dont like LCDs to watach.

 

 

Wow really hmm that tells me alot much to my ENTIRE family's dismay (after years of me telling them to buy LCD) im probably gonna get's me a Plasma when the time comes!

Anything in particular to look for when buying a plasma ?

[nixon76]

 

Draken;133218 wrote:

 

Anything in particular to look for when buying a plasma ?

 

Safest/Simplest bet is to buy Panasonic, and check back on here nearer your purchase time for what model to look out for. Currently the V20 is the one to get.

[Electra]

As nixon said, the Panasonics are the way to go with Plasma now that Pioneer are not making them any longer. As reliable as anything else, and a great image.

 

I believe that the Panasonics are incorporating a lot of the Pioneer technologies now, as they took on the Pio R&D team from what I gather.

Many think that LCD's are best because thats what most marketing would tell you. Maybe their higher margin somewhere along the food chain?

 

As you probably know, marketing and reality are very different things often.

[BazNZ]

Panasonic make the best Plasma's on the market (now Pioneer have closed shop in this area) and I'd recommend them over LCD anyday of the week with superior picture quality viewing Movies, General TV, Sports or Gaming. Too Tall is correct in stating Panasonic have joined forces with Pioneer as I believe Panasonic now use the Pioneer Screen Panels in their new Neo range. I own a Panasonic Plasma a Sony LCD and a Samsung LCD and the Panny is the winner hands down in the home environment. I have mates who seem to game 24/7 in their household who have been LCD owners all their gaming lives... until recently. I talked them into getting a 42" Panasonic Plasma over the Sony or Samsung LCD variants and they have never looked back...just love the picture quality. Don't be fooled by some salesmen's propaghanda or the 100% contrast & brightness they use on their demo LCD's in store to make them look vibrant...trust me they won't look like this in your home. Half the TV's on show particularly Plasma's I've viewed are not calibrated to their full potential in store either. It's very easy to make a TV look better than another by playing around with settings to make a certain model appeal to the masses. Here is an out of date post with some still relevent points when deciding on technologys and HDTV's today.

 

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=34&topicid=24554

[curiousgeorgenz]

A little off topic, but gaming later. I had a go on the new Microsoft xbox Kinect. It was unbelievable, best fun I've seen in gaming. Trounced the Sony Move that I saw a earlier.

[Nigel Beale]

Just so people are aware, the isf modes are actually activated in the V series models by a password whereby the pro1 and pro2 modes are converted to isfDay and isfNight where upon each are setup for their respective ideal light levels.

 

Gaming and long term "HUD" images upon a plasma are still a risk with plasma, there again you can also can effect LCD designs aswell with image burn from uneven wear.

 

Advice: ALWAYS run in a new panel, where the danger time frame is less than 100~200 hours on the display. This applys to LCD or Plasma.

Includes avoiding black bars from 2.35:1 or 4:3 material during this period.

Image retension, which effects plasmas only is something that can be washed away by blasting with images.

I would always set the anti retension features on with gaming, even if they do something odd to your game every so often. atleast these things blend the edges of uneven wear so the areas are not so defined.

[Draken]

 

Masterpiece;133332 wrote:

Just so people are aware, the isf modes are actually activated in the V series models by a password whereby the pro1 and pro2 modes are converted to isfDay and isfNight where upon each are setup for their respective ideal light levels.

 

 

 

Gaming and long term "HUD" images upon a plasma are still a risk with plasma, there again you can also can effect LCD designs aswell with image burn from uneven wear.

 

 

 

Advice: ALWAYS run in a new panel, where the danger time frame is less than 100~200 hours on the display. This applys to LCD or Plasma.

 

Includes avoiding black bars from 2.35:1 or 4:3 material during this period.

 

Image retension, which effects plasmas only is something that can be washed away by blasting with images.

 

I would always set the anti retension features on with gaming, even if they do something odd to your game every so often. atleast these things blend the edges of uneven wear so the areas are not so defined.

 

200hours is a long ass time! think i'l just grab a pre-run in one anyway for that reason. So after this initial Run-in time games and 2.35:1 films are fine right?

[eRaS1553552749]

Sorry... slightly off-topic: If anyone comes across a sale, please let me/us know. I remember there was a promotion at Harvey Norman where the actual Panasonic representatives were there, and they were offering better discounts than normal! I also remember Sony TV's going on sale for 30% off (at DSE), which was apparently below costs (but enabled them to get their sale figures up, and better prices from Sony for their next shipment).

[Nigel Beale]

Decay of any imaging device tends to follow a log curve, where by the rated hours is the half life, which means at those rated hours the panel luminance(Luma to be correct), or more understandable "Brightness" will be half that of new condition. Because the decay is a log type curve the initial decline is steep when new, then flatterns out fairly quickly to a more linear decline.

 

During the initial 100~200 hours colour and luminance balance is more eratic, hence why calibration is best done after 100~200 hours when the system settles in for the long haul.

 

A 75% luminance raster run 24/7 will runin a panel in a week. Or general use viewing 1 to 2 months.

 

But as you mention, I can supply a pre runin and calibrated panel.

 

Course it would help if my house was straight and level....all gone banana shaped

[philenotsnob]

 

Draken;133172 wrote:

So as i've been reading most of you like plasma over LCD/LED. Im still not sure why :confused: I have only ever seen one plasma i'd consider buying - The Samsung 50/58" Series 7000 - the picture on this was amazing but i have some questions.

 

1. Are games ok to play on a plasma - i dont play much but i still play.

 

2. Are plasma's as reliable as LCD's as having worked for a retail store alot of Pana and Samsung plasmas came back for servicing and the series 7000 samsung we had on display had a random line running down the side 3 days out of the box!

 

I've always been a Sony man and we had at max maybe 6 units ever come back for servicing in the 4.5 years i worked at dick smith!

 

 

 

so im kinda worried that a plasma wont last as long and wont like my gaming !

 

 

 

What would you suggest as the picture on that sammy was just so so good!

 

 

Games are OK on a plasma. The samsung 7000 series are quite good with a clean clear picture. I've tried some upscaled DVDs on it and found it to very vibrant and clear, but the factory settings dont give as natural a picture as the Pana V series in "true cinema" mode.

 

I would get a 7000 samsung over the VT20 pana however. Don't be too quick to dismiss plasma, but take some time to actually look at the picture. The contrasts and black levels on a Plasma leave LCD for dead.

 

Weta Digital do not use LCD monitors as their picture cannot be as accurately colour calibrated.

[Nigel Beale]

 

philenotsnob;133578 wrote:

 

Weta Digital do not use LCD monitors as their picture cannot be as accurately colour calibrated.

 

That is subjective, some pro broadcast panels are actually LCD.

LCD designs can be calibrated, really comes down to having the controls to dial them In and start point for accuracy. Also the environment has as much to do with contrast adaption as the display itself, especially with LCD.

The reason for using plasma panels has probably more to do with transition from CRT based reference monitors where camera gamma and display gamma are naturally closer with plasma designs, along with various other attributes.

[Griffy]

 

philenotsnob;133578 wrote:

black levels on a Plasma leave LCD for dead.

 

 

 

 

Black Level

 

 

 

With the default out-of-the-box values in [THX] mode, we measured the black level on the Panasonic TX-P42V10 to be 0.03 cd/m2. Adjusting [brightness] to the correct level (16 video black) raised it to 0.04 cd/m2 which is still an excellent figure for a flat screen HDTV

 

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-tx-p42v10-tx-p50v10-20090602153.htm

 

 

 

Its performance (Samsung LE32C530) was consistent with what we’ve come to expect from SPVA LCD panels, with blacks measuring a satisfyingly inky 0.04 cd/m2

 

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-le32c530-le40c530-20100813815.htm

 

Many new LCD TV's have black levels the same or better than the average Plasma TV, only the higher models like the Panasonic V series will produce better blacks than Samsung and Sony LCD TV's - I don't like LED with their dimming crap.

 

LCD have come a long way with black levels, just remember though that viewing angle is still very average compared to Plasma.

Also some plasma's response is getting too slow for gaming.

 

 

 

Black Level

 

 

 

When we measured the LG 50PK590’s black level as hovering around 0.08 to 0.086 cd/m2

 

 

 

Console Gaming

 

 

 

Previous generation LG Plasma displays have performed fairly well for gamers, but 2010’s models drop the performance down a notch. We tried everything we could think of to reduce the input lag on the LG 50PK590, including labelling inputs as “GAME” or “PC” and using the “Game” picture mode, but the shortest delay we could get squeeze from the plasma remained a somewhat hefty 51ms. While this is generally acceptable for slower paced games, first person shooters (which there is no shortage of right now!) are best experienced on a HDTV with faster video processing. Of course, some users have reported that they find lag of 100ms or more acceptable, so your mileage may vary.

 

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/lg-50pk590-60pk590-20100824823.htm

 

I prefer LCD as I use my screen for Internet (sometimes for hours with a internet browser open), gaming, TV and my projector for movies.

[Gopal]

Another thing to be aware of is that some if this "400hz" rubbish can actually create processor image lag which can make all the difference with online gaming.

 

Been using a Panasonic plasma for 5 years now and still going strong. Sometimes get some minor image burn, but it's only temporary

[AgrAde]

Are you thinking of frame interpolation? That's separate from the "subfield drive"

[Nigel Beale]

A couple of points about gaming and black levels.

 

Gaming: Although gaming has a very large footprint with computing and imagery, it is still really only an ability of the current panels. The focus is on displaying video imagery from film or broadcast thus timing and lag effects are a relative measure. That is, the sound and visual timing is adjusted to correctness at the user end. In gaming that creates the lag timing delay that all gamers hate and spend so much money on iliminating.

The response timing of panels has improved in gamers favour, however it is not for gamers sake, it is for image reproduction. Interpolation, or frame creation helps the human visual system to sense an image, the effect can be of increased sense of clarity, sharpness, depth or just plain belief of an artificial image. In gaming this is counter productive because the extra frames are created from previous frames and the next frame, hence the processing time is delayed to work this out. Also counter productive for gamers in that a gamer is generally looking for change in an image to react, hence the high FPS counts that gamers crave for the competitive edge.

The sub field drive frequency can help here, to a degree, however this is just a modulation of pixels to change quickly from one state to another within a frame timing. The ultimate limit is still the actual FPS limit, which is typically listed as freq timing in manuals for inputs.

The second overal limit is the human limit to resolve fps, even though we are technically an analogue system we have a processing freq limit to resolve input information. Hence the term, "faster than the eye can see".

 

Black level: Black levels to a degree are relative to the environment.

Look at my sig and note the grey bar, it is the same greyness across the width yet appears to alter greyness from side to side. The same effect happens with black level perception when viewing images on a panel.

So although one panel, projector or image may be capable of going lower in controlled output it quite often is wasted by the conditions the user uses it.

Secondly apl, "average picture levels", of broadcast tv is around the 40~70% mark, which incedently makes your peception of blacks in an image by perception blacker, but makes absolute black levels less important.

Film, moves etc are slightly different where they tend to be contrasty, to create moods etc. This is where absolute black levels are important, however they are still realtive to environment settings and absolute control.

Absolute control, its one thing to give some output level, its another to control RGB balance to create the black.

I can make a typical LCD panel look to have deeper blacks by RGB balance, if the panel can hold the balance it will look deeper all the time, if it can't and drifts, well nothing one can do.

I am not saying thast one panel or projector isnt capable of producing the lower levels, or deeper black performance, just that it is and can be relative and thus performance figures need to be viewed with reference.