damocles Posted September 13, 2010 Posted September 13, 2010 On my quest for new speakers, I had a listen to the Harbeth Super HL5s yesterday -connected to some top of the line Sugden gear. They are a bit cheaper in China vs NZ (official product). The ebony (i think it was ebony) looks lovely but is a bit different to other pictures I have seen (much finer grain) I have often heard about the old school sound of the Harbeths and now I get it. They seem to be a good all rounder. Well suited to a range of music styles. Listening to rock music through them was a little subdued but not dull. The highlight for me was the silky smooth midrange (excellent presentation of female vocals and realistic sounding string instruments). They certainly need a bit of room to sound their best. I will go back and listen to them with some tube amplification and perhaps some Jungson amplification as well. The Harbeth stockist is also the PMC dealer – so will compare with some FB1s. Then for a listen to some Proacs, Totems and Spendors and I should be ready to choose. (compared with the horns I recently listened to, the Harbeths have a sweeter midrange but a greatly reduced soundstage. Overall, I would guess the quality is comparable – will be a hard choice to make)
eRaS1553552749 Posted September 13, 2010 Posted September 13, 2010 Thank you for your thoughts. Please let us know how the tube amplification goes. Harbeth's are supposed to be relatively easy to drive and non-fussy about amplification and cables. Can I ask what speakers they are comparable to? Is the soundstage really that reduced? AFAIK, they come in Cherry, Eucalyptus and Rosewood finishes.
damocles Posted September 13, 2010 Author Posted September 13, 2010 These ones were black with thin brown stripes (I will get a picture next time). Not like pictures I have seen of tiger ebony in past SHL5s but I wouldn’t think this matched cherry, rosewood or eucalyptus. I am not very good with speaker comparisons – different rooms, amplification and sources make it difficult. I think you could only compare under similar circumstances. In this regard, I am trying to do all of my listening now (source, amp and speakers) even though it make take me a year to buy all of the components. I can say that I am very happy with the sound for my style of listening (which is quite diverse). The soundstage on the SHL5s is fine it is just that the horns projected a freakishly huge soundstage.
AudioKiwi Posted September 13, 2010 Posted September 13, 2010 I think it really comes down to the presentation you prefer. I find Harbeth speakers present a perfectly painted miniature whereas horn speakers present something akin to a "live" event (given that alot of live music is amplified through horn speakers). For me the horn speaker may not be the most "hi-fi" but it does have an emotional connectivity that I find very exciting.
eRaS1553552749 Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Keep us posted!! Re: clarification on the soundstage - when you say miniature, I hope they are still life sized and realistic, if not expansive. How is the imaging? Oh, and how many watts does it really need to make it sing (which ones have you tested?) - I've heard that they don't need much to drive them. Thanks.
shotokan Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Timely thread, really appreciate your feedback, I'm thinking ProAc, Image, 3A Reference and Harbeth. Problem is it seems all the stand mounts seem a bit expensive in my book.
Guest Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 eRaS;132991 wrote: Re: clarification on the soundstage - when you say miniature, I hope they are still life sized and realistic, How can something be in miniature and still be life-sized and realistic ? The small Harbeths I've heard have all shrunken the soundfield and its contents but the larger models (SHL5, M40) have been life-sized. Of more concern with the SHL5 is the well documented dip (or what has been euphemistically called a "relaxation") in response from 2-4kHz. Some may love this (it does give the speaker a relaxing and forgiving character) and some may despise such fiddling, for these listeners a Monitor model may be more suitable.
Guest Guest Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Hi All, Great as the Harbeths are - I own the Ls35a versions-- they are overpriced in Aust and NZ and Chris Ball's new Carbon driver models are far better, not only value wise but in terms of ability to convey an accurate replay of the musical reproduction. Yes I've heard all the Harbeths and the Image range. No contest value for the $$. Des W
ilikecrumpets Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Des W;133000 wrote: Hi All, Great as the Harbeths are - I own the Ls35a versions-- they are overpriced in Aust and NZ and Chris Ball's new Carbon driver models are far better, not only value wise but in terms of ability to convey an accurate replay of the musical reproduction. Yes I've heard all the Harbeths and the Image range. No contest value for the $$. Des W Ha ha, I bet Chris would love to read this Des!!
eRaS1553552749 Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 michael w;132996 wrote: How can something be in miniature and still be life-sized and realistic ? I was hoping he meant it in a relative sense! Thanks for the explanation re: the dip and the relaxed nature of the sound. I would've thought a monitor speaker would be more 'accurate'. I will try to check out the Image speakers too, thanks Des W.
AudioKiwi Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 eRaS;133015 wrote: I was hoping he meant it in a relative sense! Yes - I mean that while the sound is very tonally accurate and seductive you are always "aware" that you are listening to a recording - albeit a very good one - you never make the leap into believing (or being fooled into) a live event is happening. I base this on the Compact 7 - I have not heard the larger models.
Guest Guest Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Ilikecrumpets;133001 wrote: Ha ha, I bet Chris would love to read this Des!! Hi Again, Well I was alluding to Sound for the Dollar in the local market, Image vs Harbeth,as much as my great affinity for the Harbeths, I feel the latest Carbon Driver Models from Image are world class and NZ can hold it's head up on that score. I am all for supporting a Local Mfg with these goals--which they are achieving in Spades- I've heard a fair few of the competition WW and I know what I've observed. But as we all know the end result is up to the listener and that opinion could vary in some minds--or ears. It would be prudent though for some Importers to reexamine their current pricing allaying to the fact that the Pound is at possibly it's best rate to the NZ $. That scenario could narrow the odds. Good Listening, Des
damocles Posted September 14, 2010 Author Posted September 14, 2010 Des W;133048 wrote: Hi Again, Well I was alluding to Sound for the Dollar in the local market, Image vs Harbeth,as much as my great affinity for the Harbeths, I feel the latest Carbon Driver Models from Image are world class and NZ can hold it's head up on that score. I am all for supporting a Local Mfg with these goals--which they are achieving in Spades- I've heard a fair few of the competition WW and I know what I've observed. But as we all know the end result is up to the listener and that opinion could vary in some minds--or ears. It would be prudent though for some Importers to reexamine their current pricing allaying to the fact that the Pound is at possibly it's best rate to the NZ $. That scenario could narrow the odds. Good Listening, Des The price for the HL5s here is cheaper than the 7ES price in NZ. Having said that, distribution costs vary a lot by country and I would always support a local dealer if I was in NZ. Really wish I had a chance to listen to a Perreaux 250i over here
Squid1553552671 Posted September 15, 2010 Posted September 15, 2010 Chris Ball's new Carbon driver models are far better, not only value wise but in terms of ability to convey an accurate replay of the musical reproduction Are these available for general consumption yet?
chris1553552679 Posted September 15, 2010 Posted September 15, 2010 Squid;133090 wrote: Are these available for general consumption yet? Go to www.imageloudspeakers.com, then PRODUCTS - SUPREME RANGE - REVELATION2 and or PETITE PERFORMA2 Both models use the new Carbon fibre/Rohacell sandwich cone drivers from MOREL. Rev2 uses the midrange only version and PP2 uses the bass/midrange version to cover a wider frequency range down to 35Hz odd. These drivers are THE BEST we have ever had the chance to use and are quite unique in their ability to reveal inner detail in complex recordings. Individual instrument and vocal separation is phenomenal, as is the 'honesty' of sound presentation with no colouration at all that still amazes us. These drivers will be the focal centre of all new Hi-End Image models, including the new PARAGON2 that will employ 2 x 9" MOREL bass drivers with massive 5.1" voice coils and rated at 500 watts RMS. System power rating will be 1000 watts RMS. Watch this space.
curiousgeorgenz Posted September 15, 2010 Posted September 15, 2010 chris;133121 wrote: Go to www.imageloudspeakers.com , then PRODUCTS - SUPREME RANGE - REVELATION2 and or PETITE PERFORMA2 Both models use the new Carbon fibre/Rohacell sandwich cone drivers from MOREL. Rev2 uses the midrange only version and PP2 uses the bass/midrange version to cover a wider frequency range down to 35Hz odd. These drivers are THE BEST we have ever had the chance to use and are quite unique in their ability to reveal inner detail in complex recordings. Individual instrument and vocal separation is phenomenal, as is the 'honesty' of sound presentation with no colouration at all that still amazes us. These drivers will be the focal centre of all new Hi-End Image models, including the new PARAGON2 that will employ 2 x 9" MOREL bass drivers with massive 5.1" voice coils and rated at 500 watts RMS. System power rating will be 1000 watts RMS. Watch this space. Indicative pricing for these speakers?
chris1553552679 Posted September 15, 2010 Posted September 15, 2010 curious_george;133122 wrote: Indicative pricing for these speakers? Revelation2 is $6500/pr rrp. Petite Performa2 is $3500/pr rrp.
shotokan Posted September 15, 2010 Posted September 15, 2010 Anyone heard the Sonud Faber Concertino Domus floor standers? Thoughts on these.
Squid1553552671 Posted September 15, 2010 Posted September 15, 2010 Thanks Chris. The "2" range looks very interesting. It looks as if you've dropped the mid sized unit from the supreme range (can't recal the name) or is it just a matter of time before this too is upgraded to "2" status with carbon fibre driver/s (from memory it had the MTM type layout??). I think the Rev2 may be too large for my room (4.2m x 5.3m x 2.7m, suspended floor) but as I currently have standmounts if I'm going to change I'll want floorstanders that have excellent mid-range performance as well as seemless integration throughout the freq range. Lots of 3-way +, multi-driver floorstanders I've listened to struggle with effective integration of the multiple drivers. Anyway, congrat's on the new range. I hope it goes well for you.
Guest Posted September 15, 2010 Posted September 15, 2010 chris;133156 wrote: Revelation2 is $6500/pr rrp. Petite Performa2 is $3500/pr rrp. They look great Chris. Over at the New Release sub-forum the PP2 is quoted as having a bass response to 45Hz , is that solo or with the MASS ? How does the PP2 compare with the Rev2, the 2's with the Paragon ?
curiousgeorgenz Posted September 16, 2010 Posted September 16, 2010 chris;133156 wrote: Revelation2 is $6500/pr rrp. Petite Performa2 is $3500/pr rrp. Paragon2? How would PP2 with MASS compare to Paragon2? Based on DesW comments, would like to see Harbeth P3ESR versus PP2 comparison as P3ESR has just come onto the market at $3.5k.
chris1553552679 Posted September 16, 2010 Posted September 16, 2010 curious_george;133220 wrote: Paragon2? How would PP2 with MASS compare to Paragon2? Based on DesW comments, would like to see Harbeth P3ESR versus PP2 comparison as P3ESR has just come onto the market at $3.5k. Made for different markets, price and room size. PP2 on MASS is for mid to " largish" rooms whereas PP2 by itself (preferably on THE STAND) is for small to mid size rooms. I like to think that Image owners choose a model suited to their listening room, to offer a well balanced frequency range. Obviously a small speaker in a large room will struggle to give a good frequency balance and tend to be lean in the bass whereas a large speaker in a small room will be bass prominent. PARAGON2 is still in the design stage but will only be suited to large rooms and systems with high power amplifiers, typically 200 watts RMS minimum. With 5.1" voice coils the drivers are power hungry beasts, and driving two of these per cabinet will require lots of power. PARAGON2 will use the same midrange driver we now use in Revelation2. As noted before, this midrange driver is the best we have ever employed in Image models.
chris1553552679 Posted September 16, 2010 Posted September 16, 2010 michael w;133204 wrote: They look great Chris. Over at the New Release sub-forum the PP2 is quoted as having a bass response to 45Hz , is that solo or with the MASS ? How does the PP2 compare with the Rev2, the 2's with the Paragon ? Thanks Michael, yes PP2 goes down to 45Hz and offers a very dynamic response down to the lower registers. MASS takes the bass lower in frequency but is more there to give greater cone area at the lower registers for larger rooms. Once again, it is more to do with frequency balance than extension. PP2 and Rev2 offer a similar signature given that they both use varieties of the new carbon fibre/Rohacell cones from MOREL, but the new Rev2 has an edge over PP2 in the upper midband because it uses the dedicated midrange driver, and by design, concentrates excellence in that important frequency area. You would choose PP2 for a moderate size room and Rev2 for larger rooms, so from my perspective both models are best suited for different room situations.
damocles Posted September 17, 2010 Author Posted September 17, 2010 Those Images look great. If there is a Beijing retailer.... It looks like there is some sort of Audio fair in Beijing next month and Harbeth will be there (according to the dealer). I cant find details anywhere yet but the Guangzhou fair was this month so it makes some sense. Might be a good opportunity to make some decisions.
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