new speaker performance

[rob71]

Hi everyone, I'm relatively new to hi-fi and have a question about speakers...

 

I recently trialled a brand new pair of speakers in my home. They were the new Wharedale Diamond 10.1 bookshelfs, which were well reviewed on What Hi-Fi and very reasonably priced ($410 from Norman Ross). Anyway, I set them up bi-wired to run alongside (actually, on top of) my existing speakers, using A/B channels for a direct comparison.

 

To my disappointment I immediately found them to sound very "closed in" compared to my existing speakers. By 'closed in', I mean that to my ears it appeared as if they produced a very narrow field of sound - not at all like the expansive sound stage I get from my existing speakers (a mid-eighties pair of Rogers LS6's). Whereas the Rogers' give the effect of music being in the room, the Wharedale's sounded like music locked in a box.

 

I took the new speakers back.

 

Later, I wondered if I had unfairly dismissed them - after all, people talk about new speakers needing to be run in, and these weren't. I wondered whether the 'expansive' sound stage of the Rogers is characteristic of well run-in speakers, and whether the new Wharefies would have 'opened up' too if I gave them the chance...

 

So, my question is: do all new speakers sound "closed in" at first, or is the 'expansiveness' I get from the Rogers' a quality that not all speakers produce?

 

I look forward to your replies! Thanks.

Rob

[Shane Hanify]

Gidday Rob,

 

welcome to the forums.

 

No, you weren't hearing things. Although the little Wharfedales are good speakers for the money, your Rogers are in a completely different class. Yes, they would open up somewhat after breaking in but you'd need to spend a great deal more than $400 to upset your existing ones. Is there a reason you want to upgrade?

 

Cheers, Shane.

[Ernie1553552694]

I'd spend $400 on some speaker cable or interconnects. You'd get more of a performance boost there than on a new set of speakers. You could probably release a bit of treble energy with some Nordost. From my understanding, The LS6s are pretty warm and thick in the midband anyway.

 

I don't know about using the Beresford as a preamp though. The Wharfedales might have run in a bit, but not to where your expectations may lie. You did the right thing taking them back.

 

It's always good to satisfy your curiosity though.

[rob71]

Hi Shane

thanks for the reply. I know the Rogers have a good rep, and I do love their sound, but they are about 25 years old I reckon and I want to know what I'm missing out on. Also, I like to listen with them well forward into the room (I enjoy the detailed soundstage and depth of field) but being too far away from the wall undermines their bass in a big way... so what I'd really like is a good full frequency speaker that offers the spatiousness but with a fuller bottom end.

 

Thanks a lot for your comment, it does help. I've only been on this audio trail for about a year and I figured I could save myself a lot of wasted time and money with a few tips from people who know.

Cheers

Rob

[rob71]

Ernie - thanks. I'll take a serious look at some decent speaker cables. If anyone out there has suggestions in the low-to-mid hundies price range I'd welcome it.

 

Yes, the Beresford as pre-amp... I saw that it could, and my amp can be switched into power amp mode so thought I'd try it. To my ears I liked it better than the Arcam's built-in pre-amp. But, longer term I'd be looking for a purpose built pre-amp for sure (and one with a remote!).

Thanks again

[Ernie1553552694]

You may get more bottom-end welly with a juicier amp, or put a good quality sub on the end of the system.

[rob71]

Oh really? That's worth looking into as well-thanks. I bought the Arcam second hand about 6 months ago and it was a huge improvement over my previous, but I have to be honest that I don't really know where it sits in the spectrum. Going 'juicier' means more power? or do you mean an amp that has a warmer bottom end?

Thanks

[Ernie1553552694]

I'd actually go the sub route myself. By "juicer" I meant more power. More warmth and it could get too woolly in the lower registers.

[Shane Hanify]

Gidday Rob,

 

no problem.

 

So you're after a fullrange sound? Where your speakers are sitting currently?

 

That probably isn't going to happen with standmounts.

 

If you want to go down the speaker route, what's your maximum budget, and what's the size of your room? What sort of music do you listen to and at what levels?

 

You have two options there, and as you quite like the sound of your Rogers, there's nothing wrong with sticking with those. My normal 2 ch speakers are over 20 years old now, and won't be getting replaced any time soon.

 

With that in mind, I'd look at a subwoofer. A good, fast one that will time well with your speakers. A budget HT amp (Wharfedale / Yamaha etc) is not going to cut it here. They're fine for movies but are far too slow and uncontrolled for music. Start looking in the around 1k range and at specialist shops.

 

But before you do that, I'd cable up. A decent set of cables can make or break a system - I was on the cusp of binning my HT speakers (untameable bass bloom in a small room) but picked up some cables that tightened the bottom end.

 

I'm not experienced with the mid level cables that you're after, but I'd be inclined to not only get speaker cables unless your current ICs are up to the task. Go into whichever shop takes your fancy (Top hi fi would be my first choice as they carry Arcam and are familiar with Rogers) and ask there. They'll no doubt point you in the right direction.

 

Option 2 would be locally made cables. One of our forum members, cloth_ears does them at an incredibly reasonable price and they quite happily play with the big boys for detail and speed I'm told. Construction and build quality is top notch.

 

That should give you a starting point, any other questions, feel free to fire them away.

 

Cheers, Shane.

[Phred1553552723]

A number of the Arcam amps that I have heard are bass lean.

A pair of speakers that ran with a full sound stage suddenly required a sub when confronted with Arcam amps.

(It has been suggested Arcam “sound” is designed for apartment dwellers where bass boom is an issue)

Suggest that you audition some other amps if seeking a sound with more bass.

The forum members are correct in suggesting the cables will help but it is possible the amp is incapable of producing the tonal landscape you may desire.

 

(Exits quickly to avoid the abuse from Arcam aficionados)

[Owen Y]

 

rob71;129037 wrote:

- not at all like the expansive sound stage I get from my existing speakers (a mid-eighties pair of Rogers LS6's). Whereas the Rogers' give the effect of music being in the room, the Wharedale's sounded like music locked in a box.

Hi Rob,

I'm not at all surprised that your mid-80s Rogers LS6s absolutely smoke a pr of modern bookshelf spkrs!

 

Whilst not the top of the Rogers range at the time, the LS6 were designed by Rogers at a time when this company was arguably nr the peak of a British wave of 'monitor' lspkrs inspired by BBC sponsored R&D. Spkrs of that time aimed to be accurate & musically satisfying. (Esp with classical music, which is most demanding, dynamic & broad bandwidth.)

 

You are correct in using them with space around them (& this type of spkrs also benefit from rigid but open stands, IME. However they have limited bass, being small reflex boxes (flat to ~55hz). However they are quite sensitive (89dB/W/m) so unless you play loud in a vast room, your Arcam should be up to the task.

 

There's is no easy answer (others may disgaree) if you seek soundstage depth as well as low bass....rear ported spkrs, bigger/costlier spkrs, dipole panels...come to mind.

 

There are things that can be done to tweak LF performance in a minor way (chunkier internal wiring, spkr cabling, internal connections, etc) but these may improve perceived bandwidth probably only slightly.

 

If budget is a signif issue, then the s/hand market may be the place to look.

[Ayou21553552688]

Your not missing out on anything Rob, speakers from that era were a 'golden age' of British speaker building and Rogers were one of the best.

 

Quite seriously, you may need to think about a $2500+ spend to get something better.

 

The Wharfedales, even run in, wouldn't have been any where near as good.

 

Even though you'd think modern technology has changed alot, it really hasn't & in alot of cases it has taken a step backwards in sound quality, no matter how many xotic sounding driver materials are thrown at it.

 

I'd be looking at changes to power amp or Integrated amp. Kiwi made Perreaux or Plinius pair excellently with British monitor style speakers.

And do do something about your cables, you'd be surprised at the difference that can make.

[glennb99]

Completely agree with comments about how good the Rogers were/are. I had a paid of LS7's for a while (stolen unfortunately). Yep, $2500 would be where you might see improvement - little Wharfedales are not going to match them. I still have the stands for the LS7's if you were interested. Good luck with your quest! Glenn

[rob71]

Thanks a lot to all of you, I can see this is an excellent forum.

Here's my plan:

a) new pre amp and power amp (I think I will try the Perreaux's, and now at Harvey Normal I hear).

b) some decent speaker cables

c) better stands for the Rogers

I know that won't be cheap but I'm sure it will be worth it, and I'm quite excited already. I'll let you know how I get on. Might start talking to the wife about xmas and also look at hocking off some other toys

Cheers

Rob

[Shane Hanify]

Gidday Rob,

 

I was talking to someone in the know today - many decades worth of experience.

 

He says you'll not get any real bass out of the little Rogers' with them so far into the room, no amount of re cabling is going to fix this. You may be able to underpin with them a sub, and yes, a new amp may make a bit of difference but those little speakers need to be fairly near boundaries to get welly up a bit.

 

Cheers, Shane.

[Ernie1553552694]

Aha, another willing body about to leap into the abyss.

[Flameboy1553552731]

I've tried to supplement small speakers with a sub. It rarely works. I'm now a floor stander re-convert.:cool:

[Ernie1553552694]

It's a fine art getting such setups to work well, but I'd say with LS6s that there is plenty of room to crossover and get your slopes working.

[rob71]

Thanks again

The responses to this thread have been really helpful. Prior to the Arcam I was running the Rogers with a Kenwood KA3500 ($80 bucks haha) and while that amp lacked the detail I wanted it did draw out a decent low end from those speakers (although I was listening with them close to the wall back then). But, having got my hopes up with the prospect of upgrading to the Arcam I was initially really happy with the extra detail I was getting through the new amp. It wasn't until the dust had settled that I realised what I had given up as a result of the switch.

 

I did have a quick look into the idea of augmenting them with a sub, and got a mate to bring his around to try, but have decided its not the way i want to go. So, with the suggestions I'm getting here, and my own experience, I plan to give the Rogers more life with a different amp (and some proper cables). Looking forward to it now. Half the fun is setting my heart on a particular solution and then enjoying the hunt to find the right (and affordable) piece... and then the unparalleled attention of the listening sessions once the 'solution' is landed I'm sure you all know it well.

 

By the way, as some background to anyone interested, the Rogers were bought new by my older brother (way older) '86 or 7 I reckon, and have only ever been owned by him. One day I was around there recently and they were by the front door. I asked what was up and he said he was throwing them out because one of them was blown. Needless to say I took them (he gave them to me) and $80 bucks later (Bill Tong in Lower Hutt) had them running good as new. Bill said "...$1800 bucks..." so it was clear to me he regarded them too. Anyway, my brother ran them with a Musical Fidelity A1 amp (you could fry eggs on the heatsink). Sounded good though. I remember blowing him out one afternoon and playing him One in a Million on it. Its sounded so primo he made me play it again.

My musical tastes are mostly dark mellow rock (Katatonia), a bit of electronica (Clock DVA), and twisted baptist folk/alt country (16 Horsepower). Listening is typically at low levels, late at night (wife and child asleep).

 

Looking forward to more posts in future, and to learning a lot more about audio. Also keen to swap listening sessions if anyone out there finds it interesting to hear other gear and share their own sound. Although, judging by the kit some of you guys run it looks like a one-way street for some time.

 

Cheers

Rob

[Shane Hanify]

Gidday Rob,

 

we all have to begin somewhere and yours is a bit of a running start.

 

Let's see if we can get an idea of how much bass you're expecting, and how much of a tradeoff you're willing to make for the staging. Tonal balance (and therefore not worrying about what's out of place) can be more important than pinpoint imaging.

 

If I pull my mini monitors into the room, I immediately lose most of the bottom end, no matter how much grunt I throw into them. Push them closer to boundaries and they start to sing, but at the end of the day, if music has some sub bass (electronica) or needs teeth (rock) then I much prefer the floorstanders. For everything else, the standmounts shine.

 

Sure, you can swap out cables and amps till the cows come home, but those little speakers need to be fairly close to a wall to get real body.

 

On listening sessions, I'm sure there are some locals that will be more than happy, and don't worry about what level of gear people have - it's not a competition.

 

Cheers, Shane.

[Guest]

Rob, a couple of things.

 

1. The Rogers are a wonderful speaker. Don't get rid of them in a hurry.

 

2. i doubt that you lost bass when you changed amps, as you also moved the speakers way out in the room. Speakers out will reduce bass. The Arcam is a fine amplifier with a warm sound.

 

3. Many UK speakers of that era that were designed for "free space" sound best around 300-450mm from the rear wall. That's where the tonal balance will work best.

 

4. I'd suggest that you put your speakers at around that distance (300-450mm from the wall) and live with it a while. Making abrupt back and forth changes can show big differences, but can also obscure the smaller - and often more important differences.

 

5. The weakest part of your system is likely to be the Beresford. While I haven't heard that particular model, cheaper digital never has the sheer welly that only comes with expensive, well sorted power supplies. If I brought my Meridian 508 to your place then you'd be amazed at the sheer power, scale and bass articulation your Rogers are capable of.

[juliant]

Whilst I defer to the knowledge of the previous posters, it would seem to me that if your desire is for greater bass extension, then your only option is to change to a speaker that can provide that. Changing the source, or amps or cables no doubt could improve the quality and warmth of the bass, but I dont see how it can get you from 55hz to 30 or 40 hz.

I see another thread where Audio Reference is having a big sale -maybe those Triangle floorstanders at half price could be an option.

You also mentioned you tend to listen at night when the family is in bed so I assume this is at relatively low levels - so you need to ensure you choose a speaker that is articulate at low volumes then - some only come to life played loud, although bass is always going to be missing a bit at low volumes.

[Electra]

I am going to briefly go back to the sub discussion - when your mate bought his around, what did you not like about it, and, what brand/model was it?

 

I am not a big fan of subs - I prefer full range speakers. However, if your current speakers are only really disappointing in the bass department - maybe a well thought out sub could be a great answer.

[Ernie1553552694]

 

too_tall;129276 wrote:

I am going to briefly go back to the sub discussion - when your mate bought his around, what did you not like about it, and, what brand/model was it?

 

 

 

I am not a big fan of subs - I prefer full range speakers. However, if your current speakers are only really disappointing in the bass department - maybe a well thought out sub could be a great answer.

 

Yer, I did say it was a fine art. T_T is right. Most entry level subs are as subtle as...

 

Anyway you get what I mean. X2 for T_T's comment.

[bazza hallward]

If the Wharfdale 10.1s are anything like the Diamond 8.1s, then you may have dismissed them too soon.

 

I own a pair of Wharfedale 8.1s and they literally took months to run in. They also needed a lot of power. At first they were horrid - very closed in and coloured. But after a few months of use they were quite detailed and clean sounding - especially for the price. They sounded a little bland on my 50W Arcam amp but totally opened up on a 100W Musical Fidelity amp.

 

Having said that, the 10.1 may not have the same traits as the old 8.1. And the small Wharfedale may not suit your needs anyway.

 

But you can't judge any speaker on its first day without prior running in.