shotokan Posted June 17, 2010 Posted June 17, 2010 Enzers, any thoughts on this sub? Cheers. :rolleyes:
Ta Moko Posted June 29, 2010 Posted June 29, 2010 Hi Wedded A great little sub. In a music system in a reasonably sized room you could do alot worse that a R205. Mine has added heaps to my system, in ways I would not have expected at first - but then that's more a general statement on a well implemented sub woofer.
guitardude Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 I've got 2 of them, biggest improvement (rather than change) I've made to my system period
Electra Posted June 30, 2010 Posted June 30, 2010 I am not a fan of REL subs - or more to the point, I find them over rated somewhat. Contrary to what a lot of people will state, but I tried to get a pair of Stentor 3(?)'s to integrate with my old Mission 783's and sure, they added another octave of bass, they just felt "wrong" Rom from the listening post in Hamilton spent many hours trying to get them to sound right and he could not do it either. I found that the best sub at the time was a JL audio 15W6 in a home made sealed cabinet running on a Perreaux 8000C power amp. Then when I had my JM Lab Electras, I tried to get a sub to work with them again ( the 15" JL did not give enough additional extension over the Electras twin 8" drivers in the cabinet it was in, and I sold it, stupidly ) and tried a REL Studio 3, and again, Romesh could not make it "work right" - and conceded this quite openly. I ended up not using subs for music with the Electras. Now, I dont use any subwoofer for music or movies - adding an extra 5hz to the bass extension of the system is not going to be worth the outlay in my opinion, but should I be using speakers with a higher than 40hz bass extension I would be on the hunt again.
aarond1553552714 Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 webbed;126478 wrote: It's a no brainer. What - Too_Tall's opinion? My REL works really well, BTW.
Boris1553552671 Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 aarond;126483 wrote: My REL works really well, BTW. And mine... B
Electra Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 Different horses for different courses. The 783's just didn't gel with the REL's, the Electras were too fast in the deep bass department - a strange way to describe it maybe, but the REL we tried felt like it missed the timing. They must be good if so many people love them, I just am not one of them.
shotokan Posted July 1, 2010 Author Posted July 1, 2010 No (lol), I was also referring to the Klipsch only going to 45hz as well. It's good to hear all opinions, thanks Too_Tall. I will be looking out for that characteristic because my room, as you all may remember, is a dog and with the physical limitations I can't get the LF working. Mids and tops sound great. So, you know a sub may not be the golden nugget. I guess it's like trying to make a silk purse from a Sow's ear. The last thing I want to sacrifice is the good things the system does so if the sub doesn't integrate and add weight tonally then I might as well put the money to a new dog house, which I expect to be visiting very shortly. My wife is a nice person but just doesn't get this whole Hi-Fi gig and will go epileptic, about 6.00pm tomorrow. If you listen carefully you might be able to hear it.
Guest Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 too_tall;126486 wrote: ...but the REL we tried felt like it missed the timing. Whenever I've heard this with a REL in system it just went that the sub and main speakers were overlapping in the bass. Reducing the REL's crossover point usually solved the problem.
Electra Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 Michael Jones;126489 wrote: Whenever I've heard this with a REL in system it just went that the sub and main speakers were overlapping in the bass. Reducing the REL's crossover point usually solved the problem. Michael, I spent several evenings trying different positioning, X/over points, configurations etc. I never could get it right. Rom also tried to get it to sound right - he could not either. I think that they just don't work well with the speakers I have had.
Hamsta Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 too_tall;126435 wrote: I tried to get a pair of Stentor 3(?)'s to integrate with my old Mission 783's... WOW! How big's your room? That's a lot of potential UMPH in the bass dept! (2x 300W with Reflex port) For the record I was a total cynic about adding a sub to the stereo set-up, but now would not be without my REL Quake (and wouldn't mind giving a second one a crack either...). Was amazed at what how much improvement (not change) a relatively low-cost sub could bring to an otherwise fairly pricey system. That said, my one complaint about my set-up had always been that it was a touch bass-shy, so maybe the REL was rather predictably the right horse for my course.
Electra Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 your room you had your speakers in last time I was there is not that small Aaron, and your speakers are not noted for extended bass response. The Electras are somewhat a different proposition to your wee SF's. And my room is not small.. But now it has 4 13" drivers each with 700 odd watts being fed into them....
Ta Moko Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 Michael Jones;126489 wrote: Whenever I've heard this with a REL in system it just went that the sub and main speakers were overlapping in the bass. Reducing the REL's crossover point usually solved the problem. This is good advice webbed... from your last post I deduce that you will be loaning one for a trial at home? With that in mind... The crossover settings on the R series models are apparently somewhat "idiosyncratic" (at least according to some online reviews anyway) and I found my final setting to be much lower than I originally anticipated. Not quite as straight forward as "my main speakers cut off here, so I'll set the dial there". Also while this might not be the case in your room, when I first tried mine (on loan) I put it in a corner - like the REL manual said to do - and the results were horrid, so bear that in mind if you try it (corner placement I mean) and don't like what you hear. Good luck (with the Missus) & enjoy!
aarond1553552714 Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 yes, I was very surprised at how low I ended up setting the crossover on my REL - way down to 28 Hz, even though the speakers are rated to 55 Hz +/- 3dB. Mind you, they are in quite a small room and there are large differences in bass repsonse throughout the room.
bazza hallward Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 I have an REL R205. I've ummmed and arrrdd about whether to keep it or sell it - It was great with my PMC standmounts - adding punch and extension. However, with the GS-20s I had to retune them considerably. In the end, with my wife's help, I found that not only does the sub improve the bass extension, but it added ''air" to the music - it was that sense of air that convinced both me and my wife to keep it. It did take an extraordinary amount of fiddling to get it right. Even flicking the phase switch helps - which helped a lot with the bigger GS20's. It was a lot harder to tune with the floor standers than with the bookshelves. Part of the problem there is that our loungeroom seems to boost frequencies in the 30 to 40 Hz range.
Boris1553552671 Posted July 1, 2010 Posted July 1, 2010 Michael Jones;126489 wrote: Whenever I've heard this with a REL in system it just went that the sub and main speakers were overlapping in the bass. Reducing the REL's crossover point usually solved the problem. My REL manual makes a point of noting that there is a tendancy among audiophiles to set the crossover point too high and the gain too low in fear of overwhelming the main speakers with bass. This results in a setup lacking in bass depth and dynamics. REL advise the correct crossover setting is usually between 20Hz and 33hz. This is not a brick wall cut-off of course, I think my Storm has a 12db/oct. roll off. Does that mean a 25Hz crossover will result in -12db @ 50hz? Too technical for me Anyway, I'm sure a crossover of say 35-40hz will result in noticeable sub output at 50-60hz that may trample over the main speakers. As MJ said, the answer is normally to lower the crossover, not the gain. I agree with bazza, a correctly integrated sub can make a significant improvement even with floorstanders. Cheers, B
shotokan Posted July 2, 2010 Author Posted July 2, 2010 Well it's here and running - a T2 that is. Already though it's obvious to me positioning is utterly crucial before I try any serious crossover tweaking. So far I've placed it in and around the mains and in the corners but that just doesn't seem right. So I've opted to place it beside my listening chair of all things. Phase is 0. The crossover and volume buttons move incrementally so this makes adjustment seem quite seemless insofar that you can discern the differences each adjustment makes without getting lost. I'm surprised how little crossover I have on (can't measure) and I have the volume set about 25% higher than that value. Adding (?) more crossover seems the wrong way to go.To be honest (as it is now) if you walked into the room you would not know there was a sub there. The system sounds a bit faster with more weight. I don't know if I'm under or overwhelmed. Early days I know but for today I'm just going to used to the new presentation of things and go from there.
Ta Moko Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 Hi Webbed, Cool! Enjoy... Always remember that a well implemented sub achieves much by adding little! Much more a case of a subtle but noticeable “lift” from below, than getting thwacked over the head by Thor’s hammer. As Bazza mentioned (and as I found once I added mine) the sub will improve not only LF extension but also improve dynamics, 3d image & scale – so try to listen deeper as the weekend progresses even though for now (I know) what you’ll want to hear is improved bass. Also – the T2 has a downward firing main driver doesn’t it (the second driver – which fires forward – is passive from memory)? So if you have suspended timber floors you might want to try a concrete paver (or similar) underneath or alot of what you’re after will be passing straight through the floor!
Pete Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 Exactly Boris. Many people forget that the "roll-off" is just that, the point where the bass STARTS to roll off. With some off our subs you can in fact adjust not only the point, but the slope of the high and low pass filters "on-the-fly" which can be kinda handy So if your high pass filter is around 50 and your speakers roll off at 55Hz you will have horrendous overlapping. Also with regard to placing the subwoofer in the corner (as both we and REL do) the reason for this is the corner is like a "natural amplifier" with the boundary reinforcement increasing your power...this means you can in fact run the sub with the volume setting much lower, and still get the required output, but at a lower distortion (the sub isnt working as hard for the same output). However, you must be careful to adjust the sub while referring back to your main listening position, as the bass is one part of the sound that changes everywhere in the room. Although the mid/high sounds approximately the same everywhere, with only small differences, the bass may differ markedly. P
Electra Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 PeteG;126588 wrote: Exactly Boris. Many people forget that the "roll-off" is just that, the point where the bass STARTS to roll off. With some off our subs you can in fact adjust not only the point, but the slope of the high and low pass filters "on-the-fly" which can be kinda handy This is a very nice feature, missing from most commercial offerings. I like it as I find with home grown subs, the best way to integrate them is with some form of management system which allows phase shift, slope adjustment, allows it to be band passed, allows parametric EQing of it... The list goes on. Slope adjustment is vital in my opinion, simply to allow a sub to match ( for example ) a ported or sealed cabinet! So if your high pass filter is around 50 and your speakers roll off at 55Hz you will have horrendous overlapping. Indeed - hence when we were trying to set one up with my Mission 783's (LF -3db point of about 38hz ) we were setting the xover around 25hz, but it still didnt "work" In room those speakers never actually achieved the manufacturers claim of -3dB at 38 hz anyway, more like 50Hz. A little disappointing, or maybe the result of the way the speakers interacted with the room. They still felt that they went deep. The Electras had an in room frequency response from 28Hz at -3dB, with a massive bump at 40Hz ( room resonance I assume ) but we could not get a sub which worked well with them. their -6dB point in the room was too low for my RTA/SPL meter to work too well with, I think a limitation of its microphone. I suspected it was not much lower than 28Hz though. The Missions were measured in the old house, the Electras in the new house.
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