Sound stage position.

[bluedog]

OK i must be reading to much BS again but from experience and preference were does the main vocals sit in your sound stage? mine is about tweeter hight center and slightly forward of the speakers :rolleyes: from what i have been reading in some forums it should be behind the speakers? i have never achieved this and is it something that one should aim for :confused:

[Guest]

How long is a piece of string ?

 

So much depends on the system and the particular recording.

[Jim Smith]

In general, some recordings are engineered so that the primary performer appears suspended between the speakers and perhaps slightly forward. So that's good.

 

However, on some recordings, especially on large scale acoustically produced recordings, the same system should have great depth, as if the choir behind the orchestra is well back, and your walls have seemingly disappeared.

 

You want to have the intimacy when it's called for in small scale or solo recordings, and still have it seem as if your walls and ceilings have disappeared on "big" recordings.

[bluedog]

 

Jim Smith;125117 wrote:

In general, some recordings are engineered so that the primary performer appears suspended between the speakers and perhaps slightly forward. So that's good.

 

 

 

However, on some recordings, especially on large scale acoustically produced recordings, the same system should have great depth, as if the choir behind the orchestra is well back, and your walls have seemingly disappeared.

 

 

 

You want to have the intimacy when it's called for in small scale or solo recordings, and still have it seem as if your walls and ceilings have disappeared on "big" recordings.

 

Hi Jim have you got a nice sounding example that i could find to try for this "big" recording ? maybe just maybe i am avoiding them and not realizing i am doing it :eek:

[Jim Smith]

 

bluedog;125121 wrote:

Hi Jim have you got a nice sounding example that i could find to try for this "big" recording ? maybe just maybe i am avoiding them and not realizing i am doing it :eek:

 

There are literally thousands. A few, in no particular order:

 

Tears of Stone: The Chieftains—Joni Mitchell, Diana Krall, Bonnie Raitt,

etc. BMG 09026-68968-2*

 

Requiem: John Rutter: Turtle Creek Chorale. Reference Recordings,

RR-57CD

 

Ariel Ramirez: Misa Criolla: Jose Carreras. Philips 420 955-2

 

Christopher Rouse: Passion Wheels: Marin Alsop,

Concordia Orchestra. Koch 3-7468-2 HI

 

Casta Diva: Angela Gheorghiu. EMI 7241 5 57163 2 3

 

Supralingua: Mickey Hart/Planet Drum. Ryko/360 RCD 10396

 

Ports of Call: Ibert, Chabrier, Sibelius, etc. Eije Oue, Minnesota

Orchestra, Reference Recordings RR-80 CD

 

Live in Paris: Diana Krall. Verve 440 065 109-2

 

Buenos Aires Madrigal: La Chimera, Furio Zanassi, Ximena Biondo.

M-A Recordings M063A

 

The Trinity Sessions: Cowboy Junkies. BMG 8568-2-R

 

Beethoven: Symphony No. 3: Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic.

EMI 7243 5 56839 2 2

 

Sinfonia Antarctica & Symphony #8: Vaughn Williams.

Naxos 8.550737

 

Biber: Unam Ceylum: John Holloway.

ECM New Series 1791 289 472 084-2

 

Sera Una Noche: Vasquez, Moguilevsky, Kirschenbaum, Iannoccone,

Rivano, Aznar. M-A Recordings M052A

 

Jean Sibelius: Finlandia: Karelia Suite; Lemminkainen Suite—Iceland

Symphony Orchestra. Naxos 8.554265

 

Famous Blue Raincoat: Jennifer Warnes. Attic ACD-1227

 

Tutti! Orchestral Sampler. Reference Recordings RR-906CD

 

Life on a String: Laurie Anderson. Nonesuch 79539-2

[Omegaspeedy]

As mentioned above, depends where the singer was on the stage when recorded. They could be walking around the stage if recorded live. In a studio recording setup I'm not sure, but most home audio rooms being not acoustically treated would mess up depth position to some degree.

[Guest]

Good soundstaging = equipment + setup + recordings.

 

What system are you using and how is it set up ?

 

There are lots of components infamous for stunted imagery.

[Luckiestmanalive]

As an imaging nut myself, Bluedog, I would urge you to be careful how you proceed from here... down that path lies obsession and madness!

 

The only reason I know how a recording should sound is because I have played the track over and over again on various systems in different rooms so I can be reasonably certain where each instrument and voice should be appearing from.

 

Coincidentally, I was wondering the other day... wouldn't it be great to be able to access information about the production details of a track (musicians and instruments/voices and the location and timing of each) along with all the other information about it? Probably a bit hard for orchestral numbers, but manageable for smaller ensembles.

 

I was already contemplating developing and posting my notes on the soundstaging of a reasonably popular track to compare the results with other members...

 

Anyway, some of the tracks I use to check the imaging of my setup (whenever I change something) are:

Wheels on fire on self-titled album by the Magic Numbers

Volcano, Eskimo on O by Damien Rice.

First and last tracks of the letting go by Bonnie Prince Billy

First and last tracks of Seven Swans by Sufjan Stevens

Decatur of Illinoise by Sufjan Stevens

 

These are more intimate numbers, as is my taste. If we can find some crossover in musical tastes then I would be happy to compare soundstage notes!

[Antipodes1553552706]

I think it also depends a lot on how your ear/brain processes the information. In my experience different people will perceive different depth cues from the same system/recording.

 

What I mean is that I can sit in the sweet spot and think the singer is just a couple of feet behind the plane of the speakers and my wife can sit in the sweet spot with the same recording and think the voice is a foot in front of the speakers. No doubt her hearing is better than mine.

 

Also, when I listen to the dog barks on Amused To Death they are way over to my right, and my two teenage girls agree, but my wife says they are directly in front of her, between and behind the speakers.

 

There are a lot of variables and I wouldn't fret too much about them. What you will find is that the more phase coherent the system and the better fine resolution it achieves (which is also room dependent), the more difference you will hear in the soundstage between different recordings.

 

I think what most audiophiles struggle with is getting an impressively detailed and real sound and making the music easier to engage with and enjoy. And sometimes, or often, the quest for the former can unbalance the sound so that the latter is diminished. Soundstage is only one part of the picture and not necessarily an important one. Natural clarity, coherence, and dynamic linearity are far more important to the musical expressiveness of a system than soundstage, in my opinion (and within my tastes).

[Ernie1553552694]

It's just like perceptions of colour. They can be so varied. And then there's colour blindness and various other impairments of judgement.

[Antipodes1553552706]

And those that are colour-blind typically have better night-sight.

[Ernie1553552694]

Win some, lose some. Point taken about tweaking systems out of balance.

[bluedog]

The thing i guess that bugs me is when the recording artist decides its a good idea to have say guitar sound coming from both L/R speakers and then move it all about when one has read the cover and it is only a three piece band, vocals/ guitar and drums what the! and yet on a recording like say Monty Alexander and Ernest Ranglin rocksteady the hole band is present in such a way you can clearly identify the Drums piano etc etc to a point were it can be a bit annoying having the drums coming out of only one side of the sound stage.

[bluedog]

 

Jim Smith;125123 wrote:

There are literally thousands. A few, in no particular order:

 

 

 

Tears of Stone: The Chieftains—Joni Mitchell, Diana Krall, Bonnie Raitt,

 

etc. BMG 09026-68968-2*

 

 

 

Requiem: John Rutter: Turtle Creek Chorale. Reference Recordings,

 

RR-57CD

 

 

 

Ariel Ramirez: Misa Criolla: Jose Carreras. Philips 420 955-2

 

 

 

Christopher Rouse: Passion Wheels: Marin Alsop,

 

Concordia Orchestra. Koch 3-7468-2 HI

 

 

 

Casta Diva: Angela Gheorghiu. EMI 7241 5 57163 2 3

 

 

 

Supralingua: Mickey Hart/Planet Drum. Ryko/360 RCD 10396

 

 

 

Ports of Call: Ibert, Chabrier, Sibelius, etc. Eije Oue, Minnesota

 

Orchestra, Reference Recordings RR-80 CD

 

 

 

Live in Paris: Diana Krall. Verve 440 065 109-2

 

 

 

Buenos Aires Madrigal: La Chimera, Furio Zanassi, Ximena Biondo.

 

M-A Recordings M063A

 

 

 

The Trinity Sessions: Cowboy Junkies. BMG 8568-2-R

 

 

 

Beethoven: Symphony No. 3: Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic.

 

EMI 7243 5 56839 2 2

 

 

 

Sinfonia Antarctica & Symphony #8: Vaughn Williams.

 

Naxos 8.550737

 

 

 

Biber: Unam Ceylum: John Holloway.

 

ECM New Series 1791 289 472 084-2

 

 

 

Sera Una Noche: Vasquez, Moguilevsky, Kirschenbaum, Iannoccone,

 

Rivano, Aznar. M-A Recordings M052A

 

 

 

Jean Sibelius: Finlandia: Karelia Suite; Lemminkainen Suite—Iceland

 

Symphony Orchestra. Naxos 8.554265

 

 

 

Famous Blue Raincoat: Jennifer Warnes. Attic ACD-1227

 

 

 

Tutti! Orchestral Sampler. Reference Recordings RR-906CD

 

 

 

Life on a String: Laurie Anderson. Nonesuch 79539-2

 

Thanks for the list i have the first one the The Chieftains funny thing is i havent listened to that album for years for some reason, but i popped it on this afternoon and yep i see what you mean the sound stage is lovely very black back ground the vocals really sit out front thanks, like having a new album again te he there a a couple of the other ones on there i have so i will have a bit of a play.

[TheBlueMushroom1553552749]

As far as a simple imaging test goes, I use Clapton Unplugged, Layla.

Spent weeks back in the 90's trying to get Eric's voice and lead guitar central in the system...then saw the video and he (and playing lead guitar) was off to the left, with rhythm guitar to the right. Doh!

Learned to trust my ears after that.

[bigburner]

 

luckiestmanalive;125141 wrote:

 

Decatur of Illinoise by Sufjan Stevens

 

 

 

Our step mum we did everything to hate her, she took us down to the edge of Decatur.

 

Cool!

 

Nigel.

[bigburner]

When I want to understand where everyone is on stage (or in the mixing engineer's mind) I take the CD upstairs and play it on the $200 system in my bedroom. The speakers are about 4 feet apart on the dresser at about ear height when I'm standing. I stand about 2 feet in front of the plane between the speakers. When I close my eyes I can picture all the musicians clearly. When I play the same CD downstairs on the system that cost 100 times as much the soundstage is much more challenging.

 

I'm sure there's a lesson or two somewhere in that little anecdote.

 

Nigel.

[Guest]

 

TheBlueMushroom;125171 wrote:

As far as a simple imaging test goes, I use Clapton Unplugged, Layla.

 

Spent weeks back in the 90's trying to get Eric's voice and lead guitar central in the system...then saw the video and he (and playing lead guitar) was off to the left, with rhythm guitar to the right. Doh!

 

Learned to trust my ears after that.

 

haha

 

On the LP (digitally mastered and possibly digitally recorded) he's off to the right because, like many "live" rock/pop recordings, the sound is captured off the mic feeds, showing a stage perspective rather than from the audience's perspective as in a simply miked classical concert.

 

Nice system bluedog.

I'm not familiar with the VAF speakers, do all your vocals sound like they are pinned at tweeter height ?

 

It's not uncommon for box speakers to have limitations when reproducing height information.

[bluedog]

 

Michael w;125178 wrote:

haha

 

 

 

On the LP (digitally mastered and possibly digitally recorded) he's off to the right because, like many "live" rock/pop recordings, the sound is captured off the mic feeds, showing a stage perspective rather than from the audience's perspective as in a simply miked classical concert.

 

 

 

Nice system bluedog.

 

I'm not familiar with the VAF speakers, do all your vocals sound like they are pinned at tweeter height ?

 

 

 

It's not uncommon for box speakers to have limitations when reproducing height information.

 

Thanks Michael no not every recording is at tweeter hight some seam to he quite a bit higher, makes me look up from my seated position sort of floats just above the system. I tried throwing a blanket over my TV the other night wow now that did make a difference quite a revaluation to me but my wife came in and thought i had lost it The Vaf speakers are very popular in Australia were they are made very natural sounding IMHO they go really well with the Perreaux and when i was talking to perreaux they were saying quite a few of there clients are using Vaf here is a link to there web site check out some of there specifications http://www.vaf.com.au/

[Antipodes1553552706]

 

bigburner;125174 wrote:

When I want to understand where everyone is on stage (or in the mixing engineer's mind) I take the CD upstairs and play it on the $200 system in my bedroom. The speakers are about 4 feet apart on the dresser at about ear height when I'm standing. I stand about 2 feet in front of the plane between the speakers. When I close my eyes I can picture all the musicians clearly. When I play the same CD downstairs on the system that cost 100 times as much the soundstage is much more challenging.

 

 

 

I'm sure there's a lesson or two somewhere in that little anecdote.

 

 

 

Nigel.

 

Nearfield listening removes room boundary reflections from the middle midrange up (wild generalisation) and so it seems that you need some room treatment with your main system. Blanket over the TV is a start I suppose.

[tamarillo]

I had my image 414's turned in quite a lot as it seemed to work in my space. Then one day I had to sit close to speakers (in centre) at a table and blow me down I stopped work and turned her up. The sound stage went back behind the speaker which in my small space is good. Now I have speakers only very slightly turned in and they point way behind me but the sound is behind them with adequate left right movement. Works for me in small space but in larger spaces I have never needed to put it behind.

[Harvey66]

 

michael w;125178 wrote:

haha

 

 

 

On the LP (digitally mastered and possibly digitally recorded) he's off to the right because, like many "live" rock/pop recordings, the sound is captured off the mic feeds, showing a stage perspective rather than from the audience's perspective as in a simply miked classical concert.

 

 

 

Nice system bluedog.

 

I'm not familiar with the VAF speakers, do all your vocals sound like they are pinned at tweeter height ?

 

 

 

It's not uncommon for box speakers to have limitations when reproducing height information.

 

 

ah crap - I must have a lead swapped over somewhere, I played this LP last night and I could've sworn he was stage left. :confused:

[King Size1553552683]

 

Harvey;125214 wrote:

ah crap - I must have a lead swapped over somewhere, I played this LP last night and I could've sworn he was stage left. :confused:

 

Does it detract from your enjoyment of the music though?

 

I would fall into the same camp as antipodes in that I tend to think soundstaging of secondary importance, possibly even distracting, from my primary goal - the excitement and enjoyment of the musical performance.

[Guest]

bluedog;

 

Thanks for the link, those are big speakers !

 

One of the main advantages of the D'Appolito (MTM) driver arrangement is the tight control of vertical dispersion to reduce ceiling and floor reflections.

 

However this can also reduce height reproduction.

 

Are the tweeters at the same height as your ears ?

[bluedog]

 

michael w;125220 wrote:

bluedog;

 

 

 

Thanks for the link, those are big speakers !

 

 

 

One of the main advantages of the D'Appolito (MTM) driver arrangement is the tight control of vertical dispersion to reduce ceiling and floor reflections.

 

 

 

However this can also reduce height reproduction.

 

 

 

Are the tweeters at the same height as your ears ?

 

They most certainly are big the tweeter is 910mm from the floor witch is the same as my ear give or take a slouch here is some photos with the covers off the sm6 is away getting the remote altered to suit my setup. The felt pads vaf use are quite unique i gather they control the horizontal dispersion ? here is a quote from there web site about that " An obvious and integral design feature on every VAF loudspeaker is natural, acoustically absorbent fiber pads. These are fitted around each tweeter and midrange driver to accurately control dispersion and effectively eliminate diffraction effects." the new mark 11's have a slightly different felting setup new magnesium tweeter and crossover which by all accounts is absolutely amazing at producing a realistic sound stage one day i might get the chance to listen to some i put a comparison between the I66's and the I93's i can tell you it took a week or two for the wife to get over it i think my only saving grace was the color match with the I 93's and the kauri unit

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