TonewinNZ - Bada PH-12

[Mike128]

Hello everyone

This is my first post here so I will dive right in.

 

I am looking for a dedicated headphone amplifier to drive my AKG K701s. I can see fantastic potential in them - spacial definition and superb resolution, but at the moment in most instances I find the highs very harsh, to the point of stinging. I'm not in any way sure, but I'm guessing that this is clipping (I hope that I have the correct term) caused by an deficient power delivery.

 

In order to be able to listen to them with virtually any recording I have had to 'modify' the output by way of a layer of tissue and sponge within the earpieces. This has done something to 'tame' the trebble and bring it more in sync with the rest of the recording.

 

I have heard excellent things about the synergy between the Bada PH-12 and the K701s and would be very interested to try it. I see that there was one on trademe a short time ago from the person whom I presume to be the Bada stockist in New Zealand, TonewinNZ. I checked his profile and his website is listed, but is currently down.

 

Does anyone have any dealings with TonewinNZ? Is he (John I believe) currently trading?

 

Also, if anyone has a Bada PH-12, perhaps even from TonewinNZ, I would be very keen to hear of your impressions and experiences :cool:

 

Many thanks, Mike

[Cooksferry]

 

Mike128;90857 wrote:

Hello everyone

 

This is my first post here so I will dive right in.

 

 

 

I am looking for a dedicated headphone amplifier to drive my AKG K701s. I can see fantastic potential in them - spacial definition and superb resolution, but at the moment in most instances I find the highs very harsh, to the point of stinging. I'm not in any way sure, but I'm guessing that this is clipping (I hope that I have the correct term) caused by an deficient power delivery.

 

 

 

In order to be able to listen to them with virtually any recording I have had to 'modify' the output by way of a layer of tissue and sponge within the earpieces. This has done something to 'tame' the trebble and bring it more in sync with the rest of the recording.

 

 

 

I have heard excellent things about the synergy between the Bada PH-12 and the K701s and would be very interested to try it. I see that there was one on trademe a short time ago from the person whom I presume to be the Bada stockist in New Zealand, TonewinNZ. I checked his profile and his website is listed, but is currently down.

 

 

 

Does anyone have any dealings with TonewinNZ? Is he (John I believe) currently trading?

 

 

 

Also, if anyone has a Bada PH-12, perhaps even from TonewinNZ, I would be very keen to hear of your impressions and experiences :cool:

 

 

 

Many thanks, Mike

 

The last thing I would have ever accused 701s of is a stinging or harsh high.

I found them a little recessed for my tastes. They do seem to take some time to break in, from memory the average time mentioned on Headfi was around 200 hours, so if your pair are fairly new they may need some more use.

I know one forum member who loves his with a Mapletree amp.

Some of the Meier amps may also be worth considering,Ernie maybe able to offer more advice on that.

[Mike128]

Hi Cooksferry

Thanks for your post - no I must admit that it's not what I expected, even with a poor amplification source. I hadn't read anything of such before I bought them, but I have since read a few comment from a couple of other owners with similar experiences.

 

What I can say is that they have been run in for well over 300 hours - this was when I first bought them. After my initial experiences I was rather dispairing and put them aside - that was nearly a year ago. I have recently brought them out again after getting a new integrated (Onkyo A9755) which has a much improved headphone output over my previous amplifier.

 

They show a little improvement and if I dial down the treble they are rather pleasing. Even so, given a direct feed in their intended form (ie without the sponge) they border on painful - I kid not. At this time I have again run them in for around 100 hours, and will continue to run them in.

 

Just as something of a comparison I also have Sennheiser HD 595s which I adore. They lack the absolute detail of the AKGs, but are beautifully relaxed and gentle. They possess a musicality that the AKGs currently can't touch due to their lack of cohesion.

 

PS. They have been run in with a combination of pink noise and cycling music (everything from Vivaldi to Meat Loaf) played at just above regular listening volume.

[Cooksferry]

 

Mike128;90862 wrote:

Hi Cooksferry

 

Thanks for your post - no I must admit that it's not what I expected, even with a poor amplification source. I hadn't read anything of such before I bought them, but I have since read a few comment from a couple of other owners with similar experiences.

 

 

 

What I can say is that they have been run in for well over 300 hours - this was when I first bought them. After my initial experiences I was rather dispairing and put them aside - that was nearly a year ago. I have recently brought them out again after getting a new integrated (Onkyo A9755) which has a much improved headphone output over my previous amplifier.

 

 

 

They show a little improvement and if I dial down the treble they are rather pleasing. Even so, given a direct feed in their intended form (ie without the sponge) they border on painful - I kid not. At this time I have again run them in for around 100 hours, and will continue to run them in.

 

 

 

Just as something of a comparison I also have Sennheiser HD 595s which I adore. They lack the absolute detail of the AKGs, but are beautifully relaxed and gentle. They possess a musicality that the AKGs currently can't touch due to their lack of cohesion.

 

MMM, wont be able to sell you any Grados then.

If you're used to the Sennheiser house sound (which is very restrained to my ears) the AKGs may just need some dedicated use on your part to acclimatise to them.

The other thing I would be looking at is source, cpd, computer, mp3????

The AKG's may be showing up some brightness there that your 595's have masked.

 

For what its worth the smoothest sounding amp I've tried would be the Meier Opera, my amp of choice for late night listening. The balanced ground system and crossfeed tame anything I've used without loosing punch and depth when needed.

[kaka]

 

Cooksferry;90861 wrote:

The last thing I would have ever accused 701s of is a stinging or harsh high. I found them a little recessed for my tastes...

 

Interesting - 702s are brightish in the top end in my setup (Altmann-Antipodes-Yamamoto). The Grado RS1s have a more pleasant top end and mid range too.

[Cooksferry]

 

kaka;90865 wrote:

Interesting - 702s are brightish in the top end in my setup (Altmann-Antipodes-Yamamoto). The Grado RS1s have a more pleasant top end and mid range too.

 

Maybe I'm just suffering from advancing age and diminished hearing:eek:

Myself I'd blame your amp

 

The RS1s are definitely more forward than the AKGs and on some recordings with previous cdps I found them a little harsh at the top end.

Which gets me back to source as a possible cause.

[Ernie1553552694]

 

Cooksferry;90861 wrote:

The last thing I would have ever accused 701s of is a stinging or harsh high.

 

I found them a little recessed for my tastes. They do seem to take some time to break in, from memory the average time mentioned on Headfi was around 200 hours, so if your pair are fairly new they may need some more use.

 

I know one forum member who loves his with a Mapletree amp.

 

Some of the Meier amps may also be worth considering,Ernie maybe able to offer more advice on that.

 

Funny you should mention that Cooks , I have a Meier Corda Cantate that is available and a client who is looking to upgrade his Opera. I can organise either option. Mike, PM me if you are interested. We can discuss the business side of things offline if you are.

 

I know that there are many k701 owners out there who combine them with tube amps to soften the aggressive tops of the 701s. The Bada might well be a good match, but I have also found the Meier Corda Cantate and Opera to be good solid state matches. Being of Teutonic heritage, the Meier Corda amps have been designed to voice well with the headphone manufacturers from around those parts: AKG, Ultrasone, Beyerdynamic and gasp, (choke actually) Sennheiser.

 

The Meier amps are incredibly well balanced and uncoloured (maybe a touch on the warm side -- nothing tubey though) and while the phatness of the Bada might be quite catchy initially, I suspect they may be a bit one dimensional in the long run. If you want real warmth and character, a pair of Grado RS1s will keep you very happy for a long time.

 

The Opera option may also be of interest to you if you require a USB/coax DAC and preamplifier. You may find yourself with a vastly improved Onkyo amp if you put the Opera on the front of your Onkyo and use it as a power amp. Just a suggestion. I know Cooks has an analogue only Opera, (just the amp and pre are operational), he may wish to chime in about how good the headphone amp is. For what it's worth, the Opera will probably be a handy upgrade for your CD player too. Being second hand, this will take the sting out of the asking price. It's a lot of kit for the dough and you're unlikely to find anything with the functionality or quality of individual components in the local market. Probably the Benchmark Pre might cover all bases for almost triple the money.

 

Pitch over.

[Ernie1553552694]

 

Cooksferry;90861 wrote:

The last thing I would have ever accused 701s of is a stinging or harsh high.

 

Agreed. Properly run-in, the highs are airy and spacious. Sublime even. The k701 needs proper amping. I wouldn't underestimate the run-in time either. They take longer than you think.

[Mike128]

Hi guys

Thanks again for your posts, sorry I didn't get a chance to reply yesterday, I've just started my first fulltime job :cool:

 

Certainly the Sennheisers are veiled and somewhat constricted compared to the AKGs. Of course their greatest advantage is that they can be driven by just about any amplification and sound good, perhaps not great, but good.

 

I was looking for something dedicated for home use - something with a reputation for detail, airiness and smooth upper mids and highs - which led me to the 701s. You all seem to bear out that their reputation in these areas is well deserved. My tastes at the moment run to jazz and soft rock with a particular emphasis on female vocals – another area where the 701s are reputed to shine.

 

I am continuing to run them in and hope that they will mellow a little. I agree that there is likely to be something of a transition period between them and the Sennheisers but what I'm experiencing at the moment isn't simply a different sonic signature or tone, but what I believe to be an unnatural distortion.

 

Admittedly my ears are very sensitive and some things simply disagree with me, but I've passed these around to other members of the family and none can listen to them for more than a couple of minutes, and only then if they force themselves. It really isn't a pleasant sensation.

 

Of course I could be entirely wrong, I don't consider myself to be an audiophile, and certainly not a knowledgeable one.

 

My source is somewhat, umm ... different. It's a CD player of sorts; an original model Playstation SCPH-1002 :rolleyes: I know that that may get a laugh here, but I haven't had much spare money so I've always been looking out for bargains and hidden gems, and it really does sound superb to my ears (relative of course - my experience is limited to entry level audiophile players, Cambridge, Technics etc).

 

Cheers, Mike

[Ernie1553552694]

Well it seems one of my posts got vaporised (again!). :mad:

 

Meier amps really do work well with the 701s. Don't take my word for it, Cooks can attest to the great drive and tonality of these amps. Probably the best value and best match available locally.

[Guest]

 

Ernie;90987 wrote:

Well it seems one of my posts got vaporised (again!). :mad:

 

Perhaps if you stopped using the forum as an advertising venue - as we've discussed many times - you would find that your posts would remain.

[Ernie1553552694]

Sometimes, products that are marginally represented in NZ, need an extra bit of encouragement into the market...

 

Still waiting for your ratesheet sir.

[Guest]

 

Ernie;90996 wrote:

Sometimes, products that are marginally represented in NZ, need an extra bit of encouragement into the market...

 

I don't care what your nonsensical "reasoning" may be, or that you want to make this public. You have been warned several times about using a discussion forum as an advertising venue for your business. I have no problem with suspending your membership of this forum if you continue.

 

Is that clear enough for you?

[Cooksferry]

 

Mike128;90975 wrote:

 

My source is somewhat, umm ... different. It's a CD player of sorts; an original model Playstation SCPH-1002 :rolleyes: I know that that may get a laugh here, but I haven't had much spare money so I've always been looking out for bargains and hidden gems, and it really does sound superb to my ears (relative of course - my experience is limited to entry level audiophile players, Cambridge, Technics etc).

 

Cheers, Mike

 

Ok, not knocking the source as I've never tried one but have you tried the phones with another player?

If you have access to another cdp and perhaps a head amp, it'd be worth trying the 701s with them to see if your impressions are confirmed.

If so them maybe you have a defective pair or are just not compatable with the AKGs, it happens.

I know tube amps are often put forward as a solution to help cure an overbright sound but a good, well designed amp shouldn't mask anything and tubes can bring in a whole new set of variables and expense.

[Cooksferry]

 

Ernie;90987 wrote:

Meier amps really do work well with the 701s. Don't take my word for it, Cooks can attest to the great drive and tonality of these amps. Probably the best value and best match available locally.

 

 

They'd certainly be high on my list for a well designed and built amp. While there's a current trend for head amp manufacturers to go tube a well balanced ss amp is a perfect entry to a fuss free life.

[foveaux]

Hi Mike

I run my AKG 701s via a Mapletree Valve headphone amp: http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/HD.htm

To some the "retro" look of the Mapletree products are off-putting, but I can attest to their great sound.

To my ears the 701s/Mapletree combination is tops - it provides a wonderful "all-round" sound that just lets you get on and listen with pleasure.

Cooks has better experience with 'phones, so his comments are proven.

Iv'e heard all his 'phones and amps, including my 701s with his Meiers, Yamamoto etc. they worked real well with these amps too; the differences to the the 701s/Mapletree combo were marginal to my ears. (An aside - his Yamamoto/ATH W1000s combo. is to die for. To my ears this is the best headphone combo Ive heard;)). You'll note from this it's important to get the combination of phones/amp to suit your ears. Some demo listening is necessary for you, methinks.

Like others say, I cannot understand how your 701s are causing the probs. you hear - there's definitely something major amiss somewhere. Trying your 701s with different systems will identify if it's your 701s at fault.

FWIW, I was set to get some Grado RS1s, until I heard the 701s. I felt they were so close in sound quality to the Grados, I went for the 701s instead at a far cheaper price. I've never regretted it.

I enjoy the valve headphone amp sound with the 701s best, hence the Mapletree. I'm sure you wouldn't be disappointed with Meier with your 701s however:)

Will be interested to see what you decide. Good luck.

f

[Mike128]

Hi guys,

Thanks again for you replies.

 

Cooksferry - Thanks very much for your thoughts and advice. Yes I have tried them with other sources, among them a USB DAC fed FLAC files from a laptop running Foobar 2000, along with the Cambridge and various others (a couple of DVD players, gaming consoles etc). It sounds ridiculous but the PS1 thrashes them - detailed and rich - I would recommend trying one if you can find one, if only for novelty value! I have considered the fact that there may be something wrong with the 'phones, though I've tried not to dwell on it. As far as I'm aware they don't have a warranty as they were from trademe

 

foveaux - I have heard excellent things about Mapletree and I've seen one up for sale overseas recently which I may investigate further, though I'm somewhat loath to buy an amp before I can define whether or not my cans are at fault. Something of a Catch 22 unfortunately as I don't have access to an amplifier with which to test them - though Ernie has made me an offer that I may take him up on.