Can you use a sub with floor standers?

[bazza hallward]

Does anyone use a sub with floor standers in a 2 channel set up for music (and the odd DVD)?

 

My wife loves our sub... it's an REL, 200W Class D with a 10 inch driver. It certainly adds something at the bottom end, but I think it prefers a subtle influence.

 

It is my intention to buy a pair of floor standers to match my Cambridge gear. (waiting on moving into our new home first). But it is difficult to know how they may work with a sub until you get them home, and if they'd work at all.

 

As far as I can tell, the REL can only work in parallel with the main speakers.

[NeilNZ]

I don't but you certainly can. Remember the whole point of a sub is to provide the low frequencies that your main speakers may not be able to produce. This all depends on your room ultimately. A lot of people add a sub and have them cranked to levels that just sound ridiculous, but it looks like your on the right track with keeping things subtle. Your REL can definitely be hooked up in parallel, in fact thats how I believe REL recommends it.

[tanman_sg]

I certainly wouldn't mind a sub to add a little oomph to my floorstanders

[Pete]

You MUST add a subwoofer to (any available passive) floorstanders to get hi fidelity reproduction acroos the audible frequency range.

[Jon1553552729]

 

PeteG;90694 wrote:

You MUST add a subwoofer to (any available passive) floorstanders to get hi fidelity reproduction acroos the audible frequency range.

Actually not true, the lowest note in an orchestra is around 30Hz and that can be reached by loudspeakers...

 

You don't need to have a sub-woofer, but if you must have one you really need 2.

[Shane Hanify]

Gidday folks,

 

hasn't this turned into a can of worms.

 

I've run my little f/s speakers with and without a sub and prefer a sub for some forms of music and without for others. I'll definitely be adding a good one to the mix at some point (the one I borrowed was nowhere near controlled enough in the lower registers for music). Genres like dubstep just sprang to life with one and even pop music appreciated the extra slam. Bear in mind that my loudspeakers are practically nearfield monitors and have been heavily damped - I expect they only go down to about 40hz now.

 

Unless your floorstanders go flat to about 25hz then yes, adding a sub will flesh out the bottom end ... that said, the little ones I listened to the other week didn't require one - there was no time when I was listening to them that I thought "nice, but they could go deeper".

 

So yes, you can quite happily add a sub (or more than one) for added kick, but sometimes it's a preference thing.

 

Cheers, Shane.

[Tonto]

I have used a sub (My Klipsch or previous Audio Research) with all speakers I have owned all with positive effects. The only floor standers I had were Cerwin Vegas (Just little two way 6" Ones). I must admit the sub opens up the bottom end but also frees up the rest of the midrange aswell depending on the sub design. My experiences has led me to prefer Standmount + Sub now but thats another thread!

My experiences have also been mostly with a NAD AV reciever where the sub was run right off the LFE preout on the NAD. Previous to that I used a sub with a gutless old Kenwood Amp which helped heaps as less power was required to run the speakers.

[bigburner]

bazza, I can definitely recommend a sub with floorstanders, particularly for music DVDs where you are trying to replicate a live performance in your listening room.

 

Nigel.

[Pete]

 

Jon;90696 wrote:

Actually not true, the lowest note in an orchestra is around 30Hz and that can be reached by loudspeakers...

 

 

 

You don't need to have a sub-woofer, but if you must have one you really need 2.

 

Ok first of all, there is only a very serious select few floorstanders that will produce 30Hz with an acceptable level of distortion for musical enjoyment...you also have to consider the SPL levels.

 

And in regard to instruments, pipe organs are known to reach below 16hz....not that many people listen to pipe organ music, and even fewer have a hifi capable of doing it real justice!

[MosfetMainac]

I've never felt the need to add a sub with my setup, the low end that comes out of my speakers is fine, and it would have to a rather substantial to add any benefit. ( get it...sub stantial...*moan*), the main problem I have is that the room is too small and these suckers like to breathe, by memory the response is 25-20k +-1db on these old Paradigm monsters.

[Pete]

I totally agreehere mosfet, and this is the main advantage of adding a sub to your system - not to increase the bass response (which may be reasonable from your speakers) but to simply dercrease the distortion acroos the entire range by taking the stress of your main speakers - if they dont have to produce the bass notes they become much quicker and cleaner sounding, like they are "breathing" better

[Electra]

It took me a long time to get to speakers which I found I found I was happier without a sub than with. And those speakers didnt come cheap.

 

For the majority of speakers, a sub adds a lot of other subtle benefits other than the obvious.

Maybe I just didnt try a sub that was able to match my speakers - I did try a REL Stadium and Velo DD12, both of which did go deeper, but they never seemed to keep up with the main speakers, and this was a big issue for me.

 

I measured in room response of my speakers as being 26Hz at -3dB, 32Hz at -1. I think that their manufacturers specs are something like 35hz - 37Khz -3dB in an Anechoic chamber. So what the specs say and what you are able to get are often quite different apparently.

But back to the original question, yes you can use a sub effectively with floor standers.

 

Even with so called full range speakers, and there are bugger all of them around!

[ajst2duk]

Yep my vote for sub as well, I do even though my Mordaunt Short 3.5's (floorstanders) were always good with base, sub just adds a little extra atmosphere, in a subtle way.

[MosfetMainac]

Excuse the assumption, But I'd say that most of us here have far too many experiences of subs that just sound terrible, be it a combination of bad placement, volume levels poor design, or those late summer afternoons/evenings with the neighbours sattelite speaker continually thumping away in the background.

I find it very rare to hear a system with a sub that I'm not concious of.

[championsound]

does it make sense in a 2 channel set-up to get two subs? to keep the channels seperate rather than lose spatial clarity by having one source for part of the spectrum? but then a pair of subs seems overkill. nobody wants to feel like they're living inside a lowered mazda 323.

[Ernie1553552694]

Yes.

 

 

championsound;90771 wrote:

does it make sense in a 2 channel set-up to get two subs?

 

[bazza hallward]

 

championsound;90771 wrote:

nobody wants to feel like they're living inside a lowered mazda 323.

 

lol

 

Well that's decided.. the sub stays, and I'll continue the hunt for a pair of floor standers. It has been difficult to get the REL right... it can lose itself if it is doing too much work. But when it is right, it times very well and sounds solid and satisfying.

Perhaps if the main speakers can do more work, then the sub can be more subtle and controlled and the two wont necessarily step on each others toes.

 

There's no question that I will not find a pair of floorstanders that can reach the depths that the sub can (that I can afford or that the wife would say yes to).

[Pete]

 

MosfetMainac;90770 wrote:

Excuse the assumption, But I'd say that most of us here have far too many experiences of subs that just sound terrible, be it a combination of bad placement,

volume levels

poor design, or those late summer afternoons/evenings with the neighbours sattelite speaker continually thumping away in the background.

 

I find it very rare to hear a system with a sub that I'm not concious of.

 

Agreed 100%. Many of the most common subwoofer setups kill the clarity and soundstaging of a serious listening system, and also the bass becomes "disjointed" from the rest of the sound. Am I a fan of always using a subwoofer in ANY hifi system? Yes absolutely

 

As mosfet mentioned....the quality of the subwoofer, and the setup method used are of course crucial to achieving a good result.

[nixon76]

 

championsound;90771 wrote:

nobody wants to feel like they're living inside a lowered mazda 323.

 

As a recent owner of both non-lowered and lowered 323s I'm not sure how to take that . Hmm, neither had subs or woofers, but both leaked like hell when it rained :mad:, so I guess you're right - no one would want to feel like they where living in that

[Gopal]

 

championsound;90771 wrote:

does it make sense in a 2 channel set-up to get two subs? to keep the channels seperate rather than lose spatial clarity by having one source for part of the spectrum? but then a pair of subs seems overkill. nobody wants to feel like they're living inside a lowered mazda 323.

 

It isn't necessary as bass is omnidirectional by nature and I'd say 95% of low frequency information is recorded as mono anyway.

 

The main advantage of having two subs is that you can use the placement of the two subs to get a more even bass coverage in your listening room.

[Pete]

 

Gopal;90804 wrote:

It isn't necessary as bass is omnidirectional by nature and I'd say 95% of low frequency information is recorded as mono anyway.

 

 

 

The main advantage of having two subs is that you can use the placement of the two subs to get a more even bass coverage in your listening room.

 

+1.

[guitardude]

As a matter of interest, I use 2 REL R205 subs with my Duntech Viscount speakers, and I have yet to hear a speaker system I prefer. I feel that the addition of the subs was extremely worthwhile and a genuine upgrade rather than just a change which is what some of my other "upgrades" have turned out to be...

 

It may be important to note here that the Duntechs are an infinite baffle system, not a bass reflex design as seems more common these days. Dont know if that is a factor worth considering or not ?

 

I should also note that I have found it worthwhile to set both subs to the same settings electrically and vary their room position assymetrically to the main speakers and each other in order to excite different room nodes. This seemed to produce the most even sound to my ears.

 

Good Luck !!

[Guest]

 

Gopal;90804 wrote:

It isn't necessary as bass is omnidirectional by nature and I'd say 95% of low frequency information is recorded as mono anyway.

 

-1

 

I don't find bass as omnidirectional as the theory says.

Bass instruments and bass reproducers don't suddenly cut-off at X-frequencies but often extend well into the midrange where directionality is easily heard.

 

 

 

The main advantage of having two subs is that you can use the placement of the two subs to get a more even bass coverage in your listening room.

 

+1

 

Especially in HT systems where multiple subs can be used to avoid the evils of bass management and DSP.

 

[Jon1553552729]

I agree 2 subs are definitely better than 1!:cool:

[Gopal]

 

michael w;90813 wrote:

-1

 

 

 

I don't find bass as omnidirectional as the theory says.

 

Bass instruments and bass reproducers don't suddenly cut-off at X-frequencies but often extend well into the midrange where directionality is easily heard.

 

 

True, but these frequencies are better reproduced by the floorstanders than the sub in most cases.