bluedog Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Hi i have a denon 4308 as my AVR and wanted to buy the matching Denon 2500 bluray transport. At the time i brought the AVR the transport was not available da! very disapointing i thought.I ended up buying a panasonic bd 35 instead.The other day i had the guy from the denon shop show me a print out from audio products group with the prices of the "new release denon bluray player" as we all no they have been around for at least a year if not longer in the USA that long that they are on sale on amazon at the moment for only $454.02 US .My qustion is how do they come up with a price of $2699 for us poor kiwis? we must be the most ripped of people on the planet!:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilNZ Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 We have been over this a million times!!!! Economies of scale etc etc etc etc read the other 1000 or so threads on this that there are lurking around. But I agree it does suck, we waited and waited and waited for those Blurays to arrive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted April 17, 2009 Author Share Posted April 17, 2009 neil;89267 wrote: We have been over this a million times!!!! Economies of scale etc etc etc etc read the other 1000 or so threads on this that there are lurking around. But I agree it does suck, we waited and waited and waited for those Blurays to arrive.... Are they worth the money in your opinion have you listened/seen one in action?:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixon76 Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 If you want to be ripped off, live in Britain. They even have a slogan "Rip-off Britain". They love discussing that stuff there. Love it. Over there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilNZ Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 bluedog;89268 wrote: Are they worth the money in your opinion have you listened/seen one in action?:confused: yep, I tried the 2500BT a couple of weeks ago. The picture was fantastic as would be expected, but what really surprised me was the quality of the DTS HD soundtrack on the demo disc I was using. A HUGE improvement over standard DTS. Highly recommended. Everything was better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam1553552670 Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 If you have a BD35 and you are bitstreaming to a 4308, getting a Denon 2500 would be a monumental waste of time. The 2500 is basically a dressed-up Panasonic BD30. You would be spending thousands to go backwards a generation in performance (plus losing many BD30 features such as analogue multi-channel outputs, component video and S/PDIF out as an added bonus)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagain Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 neil;89274 wrote: yep, I tried the 2500BT a couple of weeks ago. The picture was fantastic as would be expected, but what really surprised me was the quality of the DTS HD soundtrack on the demo disc I was using. A HUGE improvement over standard DTS. Highly recommended. Everything was better... Did you try it with cd's Neil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilNZ Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 No, just the HD stuff... didn't have it for long unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Davey Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 If you don't like the pricing, you can always order internationally and take the risk with warranty etc you roll the dice, you take your chances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 Adam;89280 wrote: If you have a BD35 and you are bitstreaming to a 4308, getting a Denon 2500 would be a monumental waste of time. The 2500 is basically a dressed-up Panasonic BD30. You would be spending thousands to go backwards a generation in performance (plus losing many BD30 features such as analogue multi-channel outputs, component video and S/PDIF out as an added bonus)! The only concern i have with the panasonic is that when i had my denon 3910 playing dvd discs the sound was heaps better than the bd 35.Makes me wonder if i am missing out on sound quility? and yet on bluray the sound is great i havent bothered putting a cd in the 35 i must have a play.:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam1553552670 Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 The only concern i have with the panasonic is that when i had my denon 3910 playing dvd discs the sound was heaps better than the bd 35.Makes me wonder if i am missing out on sound quility? and yet on bluray the sound is great i havent bothered putting a cd in the 35 i must have a play/ For several years Denon used Panasonic DVD components and added upgraded DACs and other bits and pieces to improve audio on their DVD players. However, the 2500BT doesn't have any DACs. It has only a single output, an HDMI socket, making upgraded DACs redundant. Packeted audio (Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD HR/MA) will, due to their very nature, sound 100% identical to any other bitstreaming player from this solitary HDMI port. PCM audio quality from CD/DVD/Blu-ray will vary primarily on the quality of the outboard DACs being used (eg. those in your 4308) with only minor influences such as jitter coming from the transport itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 Adam;89342 wrote: For several years Denon used Panasonic DVD components and added upgraded DACs and other bits and pieces to improve audio on their DVD players. However, the 2500BT doesn't have any DACs. It has only a single output, an HDMI socket, making upgraded DACs redundant. Packeted audio (Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD HR/MA) will, due to their very nature, sound 100% identical to any other bitstreaming player from this solitary HDMI port. PCM audio quality from CD/DVD/Blu-ray will vary primarily on the quality of the outboard DACs being used (eg. those in your 4308) with only minor influences such as jitter coming from the transport itself. With that said why is it that the likes of the english mag "what hi fi" rave on about the sound and picture so much over the panasonic which i might add won the upto 300 pound entry level spot.Surly denon must be paying them ?:eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilNZ Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I really don't think the Denons are tarted up Panas. If you have a look inside on there are hardly any similarities... I may be wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie1553552694 Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 There are a few higher-end manufacturers out there that are starting out with standard models and hot rodding them beyond all recognition... Especially DVD players, and of late BR players. Considering that the format war has really only been settled now, there must be quite a few manufacturers rebadging OEM products (ex-Sony or Panasonic). This certainly shortens the R&D and thus time to market. The exception with DVD players would be Arcam who developed their own transport, and for the sake of brevity, I do believe this topic has been covered in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilNZ Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I woudn't be surprised that Denon are using a Pana transport, but to call it a rebadged Pana is a bit much. Denon have been working on Bluray stuff for a long time too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 neil;89377 wrote: I woudn't be surprised that Denon are using a Pana transport, but to call it a rebadged Pana is a bit much. Denon have been working on Bluray stuff for a long time too... Neil do you no if the 2500 plays dvd audio in hi res? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 This is the main reason i went with the panasonic when denon was not avalable it uses this Panasonic UniPhier chip check out this link http://www.blu-ray.com/players/compare.php?p=1 at least it looks like it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on2it1553552728 Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 http://www.blu-ray.com/players/compare.php?p=1 or http://www.idoblu.co.uk/page2%20Blu-ray%20Players.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 on2it;89385 wrote: http://www.blu-ray.com/players/compare.php?p=1 or http://www.idoblu.co.uk/page2%20Blu-ray%20Players.html opps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveWire1553552722 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 neil;89377 wrote: I woudn't be surprised that Denon are using a Pana transport, but to call it a rebadged Pana is a bit much. Denon have been working on Bluray stuff for a long time too... The Denon is a nice piece of kit, I have one at home now. Its roots will probably trace back to Sony or Pana but that is not all bad, reinventing wheels is not good practice when the volume brands have a two year jump on you. Better off to focus on quality improves in other parts of the machine. NB: The ONKYO BD model arrives in June and will be between $1500-1700 if the exchange rate holds steady. BluRay has yet to hit full commoditisation mode in the wider market and when it does - poss. by Xmas 09 it will be very tricky for retailers to move $2k+ players let alone $1k+ machines...when the rest of the market is under $500. In turn suppliers will be wary about what qty they bring in to the country. I had a peek at GfK data (retail sell thru) for BluRay machines; the YTD sales of $1500+ machines pathetic...if it isn't happening now it certainly wont be in 12 months time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie1553552694 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Aw jeez Livewire, you make it hard for anyone to talk up the good stuff after that spiel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 LiveWire;90261 wrote: The Denon is a nice piece of kit, I have one at home now. Its roots will probably trace back to Sony or Pana but that is not all bad, reinventing wheels is not good practice when the volume brands have a two year jump on you. Better off to focus on quality improves in other parts of the machine. NB: The ONKYO BD model arrives in June and will be between $1500-1700 if the exchange rate holds steady. BluRay has yet to hit full commoditisation mode in the wider market and when it does - poss. by Xmas 09 it will be very tricky for retailers to move $2k+ players let alone $1k+ machines...when the rest of the market is under $500. In turn suppliers will be wary about what qty they bring in to the country. I had a peek at GfK data (retail sell thru) for BluRay machines; the YTD sales of $1500+ machines pathetic...if it isn't happening now it certainly wont be in 12 months time. how do you find th audio ie redbook cd?:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarond1553552714 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 bluedog;89266 wrote: Hi i have a denon 4308 as my AVR and wanted to buy the matching Denon 2500 bluray transport. At the time i brought the AVR the transport was not available da! very disapointing i thought.I ended up buying a panasonic bd 35 instead.The other day i had the guy from the denon shop show me a print out from audio products group with the prices of the "new release denon bluray player" as we all no they have been around for at least a year if not longer in the USA that long that they are on sale on amazon at the moment for only $454.02 US .My qustion is how do they come up with a price of $2699 for us poor kiwis? we must be the most ripped of people on the planet!:mad: The Denon 2500BT was listed at GBP900 in the Hi Fi news review I read in the weekend, that makes the NZ list price of $2699 well on par with pricing on similar components compared to the UK. e.g my Arcam CD192 was GBP875, RRP in NZ was $2800 IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam1553552670 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 The 2500 doesn't have any audio DACs, so CD sound quality will depend almost entirely on the external DAC/processor you use with it. HDMI often isn't regarded as a good connection for PCM (CD) audio as it can suffer from very high jitter. Your current transport and S/PDIF are likely to be better for CD playback in this respect. However, if you are interested in the very best CD audio over HDMI your best bet would be to go with a newer Sony or Pioneer (LX71, 51HD for example) player rather than the Denon. Pioneer and Sony are already implementing the Audio Rate Control protocol of HDMI 1.3a (called P.Q.L.S. and H.A.T.S. by the two companies, respectively). This system carries over one of iLink's best features by slaving the transport to the DAC clock, basically reversing the audio processing architecture used up until now. The result is jitter-free CD audio (unlike S/PDIF and older HDMI versions). Of course, your processor and source both need to be compliant with this standard. Undoubtedly Denon will implement this feature themselves in the near future, so if you want a Denon Blu-ray with excellent CD playback over HDMI you might be better off waiting for their 2010 offerings (or just getting the DVD3800BDCI with its internal audio DACs and S/PDIF outputs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveWire1553552722 Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Ernie;90267 wrote: Aw jeez Livewire, you make it hard for anyone to talk up the good stuff after that spiel... Sorry mate; god bless the awesome kit the big four (Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer and ONKYO) develop but with BluRay specifically I think the world will have moved by the time (if ever) a reasonable selection of quality models will be avail in NZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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