piscator Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Any comments on the below, he raves about swapping out the driver screws for brass ones. Any opinions on this? http://www.virtualdynamics.ca/the-oddiophile-eps-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixon76 Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Interestingly the guy from Magico speakers is against screws full stop. His opinion is after a while (esp with occasional speaker removal) the screws lose grip (in MDF) under the vibrational load and work loose. His solution is to use bolts and aluminium instead of MDF. Then again his speakers are in the 'nice second-hand european car' range of money.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Hanify Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Yes, in my last build - a little passive sub - I used T-Nuts. Those little beggers won't come adrift unless I tell them to. Cheers, Shane. [edit] Brass screws because the steel ones suffer from harmonics?? If that's the case why are they not used in all builds? Personally I couldn't stand having bright screws showing on my loudspeakers ... not an issue for the Infinities as they're behind a baffle (which must add all sorts of bad sound to the speakers in themselves being a flimsy plastic affair), but doing that to my centre channel would drive me nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 OMG! I'm off to symmetrically torque up my driver screws with my Wheeler Fat Wrench!! Seriously however, I can attest to sonic differences in types of metal screws for cartridge/headshell fixing & yes... I too would now never use anything but brass. Warmer, more balanced, sweeter sound.. than aluminium (thin tone), steel or stainless steel (pacy but hard, narrower bandwidth). So, no reason why this would not affect spkr drivers too, altho I would expect less obvious effects. This dude may be on the money. I never thought of identical torqueing the screws tho :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Hanify Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Gidday folks, Well, I went out and bought some brass screws today just for fun. Came home, pulled the speakers to bits and used them. I don't know whether it was the screws themselves, or the fact that I tightened the existing screws holding the tweeters in place (they're attached to the baffle, not to the cabinet via little short machine screws and they didn't have that size), but the sound has altered for the better. I now have a real snap to the midrange and the bass has tightened up no end. It's now more underpinning the music rather than being a distracting element as it was before The speakers still have an element of boxiness that they've always had but it's much less now. I put this down to the construction of the cabinets and the room nodes, none I can do anything with in the short term. So, in short, I'm well pleased. A nice cheap (about $11 in screws as I went the whole hog and got some for the baffles as well just for fun) exercise that yielded good results. Thanks Piscator Cheers, Shane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piscator Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 Well isn't that interesting, nice work Low Orbit, maybe an tweak I need to try. I would not reccomend what happens in the EM Fields video where he drops a magnet (accidently) onto an exposed PCB, makes a nice clunk! He doesn't seem concerned when he does it but I bet he checked it thouroughly when filming stopped. http://www.virtualdynamics.ca/the-oddiophile-eps-4-parts-1-and-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 What type of spkrs are you doing this to, Low Orbit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Hanify Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Piscator;89389 wrote: Well isn't that interesting, nice work Low Orbit, maybe an tweak I need to try. I would not reccomend what happens in the EM Fields video where he drops a magnet (accidently) onto an exposed PCB, makes a nice clunk! He doesn't seem concerned when he does it but I bet he checked it thouroughly when filming stopped. http://www.virtualdynamics.ca/the-oddiophile-eps-4-parts-1-and-2 Please, call me Shane. I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but at the very least you'll be able to find out how well - or how badly - your loudspeakers are constructed. I wouldn't try it with speakers that are still under warranty unless you want to void it. And don't over torque the screws - brass is a relatively soft material. Owen Y;89396 wrote: What type of spkrs are you doing this to, Low Orbit? The Infinity RS-5, 2 1/2 way Diapollito (sp?) configuration with 6 1/2inch bass/mids and a 1" tweeter - with the tiniest magnet assembly I've ever seen on a full size tweeter. Incredibly bad construction, but reasonably competent none the less for the price I paid. I'm in two minds whether to add bracing to the (seemingly unbraced (!) cabinet) or merely to start again and re cabinet the existing drivers. I've already tweaked the filling for them to the nth degree, and they sound alright given enough room to breathe - which they haven't got here. And again, please call me Shane. Cheers, Shane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I'd work on the existing cabs, rather than start from scratch. Aside from cost, you will also have a benchmark sound from which to start modifying. They are large cabs too, so I imagine could be improved greatly with careful internal bracing. Check out the earlier Tweak thread on bracing a Sony sub... http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=7884 Go for it I say, Shane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Hanify Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Yep Owen, saw the bracing in that project - I was quite impressed. All I have to do is figure out materials and exact lengths / shapes for the braces so I can tolerance fit the little buggers. Should be great fun Cheers, Shane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tims1553552719 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Here's another proponent of using brass - Dave Ellis from ellisaudio using brass screws and nuts for his speaker crossover... http://www.ellisaudio.com/Brassscrews.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortnipper Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 In addition to being non-ferrous, brass also has a resonance that we, as westerners, are tuned into being familiar with brass instruments. Just a wild hairball idea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 I actually was pleasantly surprised to find that my speakers use T nuts and machine screws to hold the drivers in. They just feel so much nicer, and say "quality" I dont know if it actually makes any difference sonically though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Hanify Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 gortnipper;90966 wrote: In addition to being non-ferrous, brass also has a resonance that we, as westerners, are tuned into being familiar with brass instruments. Just a wild hairball idea.... Oddly enough that thought crossed my mind too. too_tall;90980 wrote: I actually was pleasantly surprised to find that my speakers use T nuts and machine screws to hold the drivers in. They just feel so much nicer, and say "quality" I dont know if it actually makes any difference sonically though! I'd say the differences between T nuts and Brass screws would be minimal - both seem to hold the driver pretty securely to the cabinet, although I am a fan of T nuts for the sheer amount of force you can put through them - just be aware that it's very easy to over torque using them though (have you made sure they're all the same? ) I'd say that over a very large amount of time they may work loose? Cheers, Shane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortnipper Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Low Orbit;91002 wrote: I'd say the differences between T nuts and Brass screws would be minimal - both seem to hold the driver pretty securely to the cabinet , although I am a fan of T nuts for the sheer amount of force you can put through them - just be aware that it's very easy to over torque using them though (have you made sure they're all the same? ) I'd say that over a very large amount of time they may work loose? Cheers, Shane. I think what you said above (emphasis added) is the key - holding the driver firmly coupled to the cab - but not too firm is what I also hear. This works the same with TTs like the Garrard - you want them very snug but not rigidly bound else it kills dynamics. Use some low-strength thread lock and they wont come loose unless you want them to. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foveaux Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 I recalled brass screws for speakers from research I was doing on OB/Full range speakers. Funny what you file away in your mind, such an innocuous little item! tonight I remembered the manufacturer (fairly competent speakers by all accounts): http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/about/secret-recipe ......took a while, was pleased/surprised I could remember:D.....but then my mind was wandering - the test from Lords is rained off....oh well over to the league. cheers, f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declannz Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Why is my brain saying "this can't possibly be right" and "this makes total sense" at the same time? Would the screws in my HF units, which are in a seperate enclosure to the bass cabs, and are fitted to a flat piece of board with no backing, really be effected/affetcted by the type of screws I use to hold them in place? For those who changed the screws, maybe it is the differing torque. Or, if you took the drivers out entirely and did a little cleaning or something... If we are down to that level, surely we shoud all be starting to simply building our own speakers to the spec we want and forget about buying stuff off the shelf? Sorry, I just don't understand. Maybe someone needs to explain in laymans terms about the distributed force of a circular flange against a wooden surface or something so I get this. I'm not critisising anyone, I'm just saying. Interesting ideas about capacitors and cables I can understand because I understand the science of it. This revelation is going to give me weird dreams for a while because I get kind of edgy when the universe goes and puts a spanner in the screwdriver drawer and doesn't tell me why or let me put it back in it's right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortnipper Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 All materials resonate - this is basic physics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance Some people beleive that the best woodwork is done with no screws or nails. Some beleive that the best sounding plinths have no metal for vibrations to reflect off of within the wood. It could be that the resonant frequency of brass is less dissonant than, say aluminum or steel. I dont know. I am guessing. Or it could be that since brass is non-ferrous, there is no chance to set up any sort of small magnetic field interacting with the drivers. Again, I am guessing. I do know that torque has a large impact on sound. This has a major impact on mounting TTs and tonearms to plinths, pianos, and possibley fitting drivers to enclosures. I also know that how you tighten bolts has an affect as well. That is why there are bolt pattern sequencing for tightening down cylinder heads on automobile engines and wheels - to get an even amount of pressure for a uniform fit/seal. Maybe this has an effect on speakers? I dont know, but I just go ahead and mimic the automotive tightening pattern. But my wife says I am anal about how I fold my shirts too.... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikefish Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 My thought on all this is that there could be some chance of a benefit to using non-ferrous screws around a small unit such as a tweeter, where some magnetism could be pulled away by the screws and cause irregularities in the voice coil gap. I doubt it could be an issue with larger drivers, we don't get up in arms when there's a presence of ferrous material discontinuously arranged around the coil there (I mean the spokes of a pressed steel basket), and as driver size increases the distance away the screws are makes them insignificant magnetism benders, especially with a non-ferrous basket, or in comparison to a ferrous basket. I'd guess the biggest benefit to replacing screws is that it allows the basket/panel to relax, then be fixed again with even forces if you do it right. One minor effect may be evening out any pre-tension within it that may have been caused by the baffle material drying out or swelling, getting knocked, getting mechanically fatigued by sound, perhaps. The problem with pretension in the basket is again barely tangible, affecting things by the tiny dip (usually around 1-2khz in a large driver) that exists where the basket 'spring' and motor 'mass' resonate in-phase with the coil. I think tensions in the basket would make this notch broader, but it's not something I'd lay up an night worrying about. I'd give the far greater weighting to the re-mounting of the driver holding it firmly when it may have previously been held less firm on one side, for example. I use brass, silicon bronze, big stainless, or black steel, in that order, just because they look good. With reference to the link foveaux posted, they claim steel 'rings' and brass doesn't as much. If you compare same sized bars of brass and key steel, they are indeed different, in frequency and decay rate (damping), but I reckon you could use Diamond screws and they still wouldn't 'ring' observably if they are attached to a dampening piece of wood. Going on that principle, the harder and higher-frequency the ringing of a material, the better it should be for screws, since its resonant frequency would be more effectively damped by the wood. Don't worry though, the only thing that'd probably be low-ringing enough to be poorly damped would be Lead, or battenburg. Good on them for keeping steampunk alive though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixon76 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Pikefish;91164 wrote: I doubt it could be an issue with larger drivers, we don't get up in arms when there's a presence of ferrous material discontinuously arranged around the coil there (I mean the spokes of a pressed steel basket) Check out PHY-PH - they use brass for the basket Very expensive mind.... There's always one eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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