Mycenius Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Hi All, Recently I started the thread “Crikey Dick, A Concrete Floor?†thinking I had an acoustics problem in my new house. It has however subsequently become apparent I almost certainly have some sort of fault on my Plinius 9200 (see also my comments in the “HFN Plinius Review†thread). Although this isn’t 100% for sure I think I know what I’m doing enough to have a pretty good idea, and part of my experience has been resembling that of Douglas’s back in December, where there’s definitely a fault but one dealer and manufacturer say there isn’t or they can’t find or recreate it, and another dealer says there might be. I’m certainly not intending to point fingers or trash anyone, but as an end user it’s disappointing to be in a position where something that’s pretty obvious (to me) is doubted (even if not intentionally)… a.k.a. Douglas’s service experiences in December… Anyway I’m not writing this to knock anyone or bad mouth anyone, but wanted to express my frustration, and see whether anyone else has encountered this type of issue (i.e. the actual fault) when hooking a HT Receiver to a Stereo Amp (and not necessarily a Plinius unit). I’m on a quest, out of frustration, to figure this one out… Apologies for this if sounds a bit rant-ish, and for the Odysseic length! :eek: One issue that has arisen, and has clearly impaired one of the dealer’s and probably the manufacturer’s ability to recreate the issue I have, is the Processor Loop configuration – and the fact that the instructions are apparently reversed in the manual (suggesting a typo, whether accidental or a carry over from a previous manual, or a change in the production line process, again whether intentional or unintentional such as a component being installed reversed subsequent to the manual being published). There is clearly something wrong here somewhere, and while not wishing to say bad things about Audible Technologies Ltd, I can’t believe if this has happened that it is ongoing, if several others and myself are right, the amp and manual have been out for 6 to 12 months (or more?), and the error has not been noted or corrected, and furthermore the error may inadvertently be being perpetuated by technical advice from the Plinius factory itself? The manual states: "To enable all sources to use the power amplifiers of the Plinius 9200 for front left and right speakers you should connect the receiver’s front right and left pre-amp outputs to the processor ‘return’ inputs on the Plinius 9200. The receiver’s front power amplifiers are disconnected from any loudspeakers as they are replaced by the Plinius 9200." However I have always had to connect mine to the ‘source’ sockets, not the return – if you connect to the return there simply is no signal. Now the issue here is one dealer has told me I’m correct, they have always had to do that, and have had several customers ask them the same thing, while another believes the manual is right, and have spoken to some one at Audible Technologies and had it confirmed that the HT Receiver should connect to the ‘return’ inputs! I’ve asked at least one other 9200 owner on this group how his HT Receiver is wired up (hope to have response tomorrow) and if there are any others out there reading this thread (Douglas do you have a HT Receiver hooked up to your 9200?) I’d be very keen to hear from you too… How have others got their HT Receiver hooked up to the 9200 – to the ‘Source’ or ‘Return’ inputs? Now that obviously seriously affects the ability to recreate the issue, so I’m not blaming anyone, other than if it’s right the failure to correct the manual/technical advice is disappointing (Gary – if you read this perhaps you can comment, or at least take it onboard from an ATL POV?). Anyway I have now firmly identified (IMO) the fault as being when there is a completed circuit (+/-) connected to my Plinius 9200 Processor Loop input the other inputs (CD, Tuner, Cassette) are somehow impaired (presumably at the pre-amp stage) and have approximately the bottom third of the dynamic range/frequency range removed. This results in the issue I previous commented on about having no bass, etc… It’s important to note that the feed from the HT Receiver is fine and when active works perfect and there is no loss of bass. When the HT Receiver is in standby mode (i.e. turned off) the fault exists, but when the connection (left & right pre-outs) are disconnected from the Plinius Processor Loop “source†inputs it then immediately disappears, and the other inputs (CD, Tuner, Cassette, etc) immediately regain their full range and the bass reappears. :confused: Since the signal from the HT Receiver is fine, but when it’s not in use it’s ‘connection’ is affecting the other inputs on the 9200, I can not see how the HT Receiver can be affecting the other devices directly connected to the 9200?! And part of my frustration is that both the manufacturer and a dealer are suggesting this is the case… However it’s important to digress for a moment and look at the other half of the manual’s instructions for the Processor Loop on the 9200…
Mycenius Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 The manual goes on to say: "Next connect the processor ‘source’ output on the back of the Plinius 9200 to a line input (e.g. ‘Line 1’) on the receiver and set the 9200 rear panel switch to ‘processor in’. The source selected on the Plinius 9200 will now be sent to the processor and the front right and left channels returned to the Plinius 9200 and on to the loudspeakers. To listen to sources not connected to the receiver’s inputs simply operate the receiver as if the Plinius 9200 was not present (although it will be driving the front loudspeakers). To listen to sources connected to the Plinius 9200 inputs, select the line input chosen above on the receiver (e.g. ‘Line 1’) and operate the receiver as normal. You will be able to set the Plinius 9200 volume control to a level that will allow the loudness of its source components to match those from the receiver. All volume control adjustment for the system should then be done via the receiver’s volume control." Now first of all, and again I’m not intending to put down the manufacturer, but why on earth would you even want to do this? What possible benefit does this provide? I realise it’s probably there for theoretical reasons to cover some unusual circumstance, but surely most people will be like me and want the Plinius to have their musical sources (CD, TT, Cass, possibly DVD) directly connected, and then simply act as a power amp for their HT Receiver’s front channels… Why would you want to send signal back through the HT Receiver, which in theory, has the inferior system/pre-amp stage? Just seems pretty convoluted to me… :rolleyes: Anyway, that aside, I have never connected the second half of the loop, I know that at least one other 9200 owner hasn’t either, assume probably none do, and have asked the dealers why you would want to and no one can give me a satisfactory answer! Again that isn't the real issue, the main point being I’ve never done it, and my system has worked fine for 3 months until this fault has appeared. And since I’ve never done it, and there is only half a ‘loop’, again how can the HT Receiver be affecting items inputting directly into the Plinius, when their signal goes nowhere near the HT Receiver? :confused: Getting back on subject, the point is I’ve never run the full loop so can’t see how the HT Receiver can be affecting the inputs on the Plinius 9200, especially when it’s turned off (in standby mode) – it’s just illogical… Which seems to undermine the suggested cause of the issue put forward by the manufacturer when they tested (and found no fault), which mimicked the initial thoughts from one dealer. Just to confuse the issue I have a modification on my 9200 (one that is approved by ATL) where the manual Processor Loop switch has been replaced by an automatic trigger switch controlled from the HT Receiver’s trigger out function. Obviously this adds another variable to the issue but again clearly, from my experience and testing, this is probably not directly an issue. It’s worked fine for 3 months, if I disconnect it it has no effect (I still have the fault), if I disconnect the pre-outs from the HT Receiver and leave the trigger circuit connected the problem goes away, sufficient proof I believe that the modification itself is not the issue. The modification is subtle and does not involve any changes to the circuitry, etc, of the Amp; just one switch is replaced with another. However the unit is at this time away with the modification people being checked that there isn’t a fault and having some additional testing… And there is always the possiblity it is this modification somehow... In closing the issue has only arisen a few weeks ago, so is, IMO, new and isn’t an issue with how my system is connected up nor how I have the settings on my HT Receiver. I believe the fault diminished once I powered down the 9200 for 12-18 hours (i.e. previously when it first appeared I’m not sure disconnecting the HT Receiver pre-outs removed the issue, but as I wasn’t paying particular attention I can’t be sure. However since it was off over night, now as long as the Processor Loop ‘Source†input has nothing connected, it’s reverted to normal performance. So, it seems to me there must be some sort of short on the Processor Loop (or possibly the trigger), that when a complete circuit is there, even if not active, that is triggering something inside the 9200 that’s affecting the pre-amp stage or similar… Anyone ever experienced this with an HT Receiver & Stereo Amp combination? It’s obviously unresolved whether it’s a fault on the Amp itself, with the trigger switch modification, or something to do with my HT Processor, but you will have gathered what I think is the most likely based on my testing & experiences. Obviously I want to stress I’m not bagging anyone or anything, and I appreciate that dealers and manufacturer are tryign to be helpful, but it's damn frustrating! :mad: Anyway just expressing frustration and looking for comments from anyone who’s had similar experiences… An innocuous comment somewhere could lead to the solution… :confused: M.
Michael Jones Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Mycenius, I have a Plinius 8150 which has the processor loop. My AV receiver is attached to the Return set of sockets, as it should be.
Michael Jones Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Originally posted by mycenius Now first of all, and again I’m not intending to put down the manufacturer, but why on earth would you even want to do this? What possible benefit does this provide? The most obvious answer that comes to my mind is to be able to use a surround sound mode on some CDs that benefit from it, ie, using PLII on the ocassional CD, while leaving your signal path at its optimum for all other CDs. There are a couple of early 1970s Beach Boys albums (Sunflower and Surf's up, from memory) that are supposed to sound spectacular in surround. I've been meaning to try these for ages.
Mycenius Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 Originally posted by AudioEnz I have a Plinius 8150 which has the processor loop. My AV receiver is attached to the Return set of sockets, as it should be. Okay, Yes, well that probably confirms the suspicion that a coupelof other people have told me that the manual wording is a carry over from the previous model and either intentionally or unintentionally the sockets are reversed on the 9200... ...I would hate to think some people have them one way round on their 9200 and others the other way round on theirs... :eek: The most obvious answer that comes to my mind is to be able to use a surround sound mode on some CDs that benefit from it, ie, using PLII on the ocassional CD, while leaving your signal path at its optimum for all other CDs. Yep, okay - I imagined there would be some odd exceptions where this might be of use, but that's probably a pretty rare option right? And most CD-Player's have a digital out so you'd just feed that direct to the HT Receiver anyway as a second output...? Anyway it was just a cursory BTW comment - I'd just suspect 99% of people who use the Processor Loop function are like me and use only the first half of the loop (feeding downstream from AVR to Stereo Amp) and would never bother feeding back up...? You could argue it's a significant extra complexity for perhaps 0.1% of your total market, especially when you have a set of pre-outs as well...! Having the processor loop selection switch on the main selector knob on the front would have been a far better investment in R&D and production costs... M.
Boris1553552671 Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Mycenius, Well good news (sort of). I have re-created your problem exactly with my Plinius 9200. - I can confirm the manual IS CORRECT. My AVR pre-outs are connected to the 'return' inputs on the Plinius. Works perfectly. - Connecting the pre-outs to the 'source' inputs on the Plinius results in total silence ie. no main speakers. The above is for components connected to the AVR. Now the interesting bit: - My CDP is connected direct to the Plinius, but if I connect the AVR pre-outs to the 'source' as you have, I get....drum roll please....reduced volume and NO BASS. In theory the AVR has no part in the replay process, I am using the Plinius purely as an integrated amp, but having the pre-out leads attached buggers up the sound. So that is your problem replicated. The big question is why your components connected direct to the AVR only work when connected to 'source'??? This is not how mine works and conflicts with the manual which is correct in my experience. Hopefully this will take you one step closer to figuring it out :confused: Cheers, B.
Mycenius Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 Thanks Boris... I can confirm the manual IS CORRECT. My AVR pre-outs are connected to the 'return' inputs on the Plinius. Works perfectly. Well mine definitely isn't getting any signal in the "return" socket and never has, even before it was modified... It has always given total silence when the AVR is connected that way. Considering what one of the dealers has told me, and my experiences, it makes me a bit worried that there 'might' be a manufacturing or assembly inconsistency? Connecting the pre-outs to the 'source' inputs on the Plinius results in total silence ie. no main speakers. Okay well that's definitely the exact opposite of my unit - quite literally EXACTLY. The only way to get input into my unit is through the source, and always has been. When I connect it up the way the manual says it actually sucks/inducts residual signal backwards (i.e. across the negative/earth circuit - not sure what the correct name for the phenomen is, but it's quite common) from an active raw input (probably Sky) on the AVR out through the AVR CD input (or whatever input I use) even when the AVR is in stand by, and I have tested it to prove it's definitely doing it through the "source" socket - so I can't have the Plinius wired up the way the manual says even if it did work, because it's constantly picking up that 'raw' signal out of the AVR... My CDP is connected direct to the Plinius, but if I connect the AVR pre-outs to the 'source' as you have, I get....drum roll please....reduced volume and NO BASS. In theory the AVR has no part in the replay process, I am using the Plinius purely as an integrated amp, but having the pre-out leads attached buggers up the sound. So that is your problem replicated. Excellent - Thanks Boris. At least that proves the mechanics of what's happening inside the Amp. Of course the really curly question is how come it suddenly starts doing it after 3 months use? And it still doesn't work at all when connected the "correct" way around (i.e. as per the manual)? However it does support one of my other thoughts that it seemed on some occassions to maybe be trying to send & receive signal through the same "source" input... So perhaps the switching mechanism on the processor loop in the Plinius (rather than the actual switch/switch modification) is the cause? Or maybe it's just been wired up wrong right from the start? Thanks for the effort Boris - it's a significant piece to the jigsaw I'd suspect... Much appreciated... M.
Ivors Bitch Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Well Myc, as youve had no luck sorting it out here where it was made and sold, perhaps you should ask Martin Colloms in old Blighty, he's had a look at the amp.
douglasM6 Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Originally posted by mycenius Hi All, (Douglas do you have a HT Receiver hooked up to your 9200?) Hi There Mycenius. No, I do not have a HT receiver, so cannot help you here. I really hope you manage to resolve this problem. I am off to Oz to work in Brisbane, so will be out of circulation for about a week. Anyone among the members in Brisbane? Cheers for now.
showtime1553552673 Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 is it possible that your receiver is shorting the relevant inputs/outputs to ground when it is turned off?? therefore presenting a very difficult load for your preamp to drive... I am assuming that the return RCAs are directly (possibly through a resistor value of some sort) connected to the power amp section of your 9200, which in turn means that it is also directly connected to the preamp section. I am unsure as to whether Plinius utilise a relay/switch to disconnect this return connection when using a source input. They definitely wouldn't if the return is intended to be used as a preamp out. hope that makes some sense and is if some assistance.
Mycenius Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 Originally posted by showtime They definitely wouldn't if the return is intended to be used as a preamp out. Hi ST, Well FWIW the 9200 has a seperate set of pre-outs in addition to the P/loop in & outs... M.
Mycenius Posted May 20, 2004 Author Posted May 20, 2004 Originally posted by mycenius However I have always had to connect mine to the ‘source’ sockets... Now the issue here is one dealer has told me I’m correct, they have always had to do that, and have had several customers ask them the same thing, while another believes the manual is right, and have spoken to some one at Audible Technologies and had it confirmed that the HT Receiver should connect to the 'return' inputs! FTR it seems I apparantly misunderstood what the second Plinius dealer was saying and what was meant, which was actually "they have a high rate of confusion with people (customers) hooking it up the wrong way round - into the source instead of the return"... Not what I said in the quoted text above, about them pretty much always having to hook it up the wrong way compared to the manual to get it to work - which would seem to have been only my experience now... M.
Michael Jones Posted May 20, 2004 Posted May 20, 2004 Originally posted by mycenius FTR it seems I apparantly misunderstood what the second Plinius dealer was saying and what was meant, which was actually "they have a high rate of confusion with people (customers) hooking it up the wrong way round - into the source instead of the return"... If Plinius labelled the sockets In and Out, then confusion would be lessened. I'm sometimes confused with Source and Return...
Boris1553552671 Posted May 20, 2004 Posted May 20, 2004 I'm with you Mr Ed. Source & Return don't mean a thing to me, and I use them! They actually suggest the opposite to me, and obviously many others by what Mycenius has said. Considering what the processor loop does, surely the AVR pre-outs would be the 'Source', and if you want to complete the full loop, the 'Return' takes a signal back to the AVR. But no, it's the other way around :confused: Cheers, B.
michaelw Posted May 21, 2004 Posted May 21, 2004 Makes perfect sense if you are looking from the Plinius side. Source means the source coming out of the Plinius going to the processor. Return is the signal out of the processor and back into the Plinius. But I agree that use of "In" & "Out" makes for less confusion.
Mycenius Posted May 28, 2004 Author Posted May 28, 2004 Originally posted by michael w Makes perfect sense if you are looking from the Plinius side. Yes - I agree. It does make sense as long as you read the manual description carefully... And that's never been the problem... Anyway, FWIW if anyone is interested, unit came back yesterday, cleared as all okay, switch mod is all okay, and PL works fine wwhen hooked up to an AVR with 12V trigger out. I still have the issue, but something I just noticed is if I hook it up the wrong way round (i.e. into the source) it works for AVR output even without the trigger switch... So looks like the 12V trigger on the AVR is shot... I'm sure I tested for this but I'll have to send the Denon in to be sure... M.
Gary.M1553552674 Posted June 3, 2004 Posted June 3, 2004 Hi Mycenius, I've read your message, copied below. Now I'm sitting in front of the user manual, circuit diagram, and printed circuit board... What happens is that in normal operation there is an internal connection between the preamp processor "source" connectors and the input of the power amps. This is because the 9200 preamp output (which normally goes to its power amp) is available on the processor "source" connectors. Under these circumstances the processor "return" connectors are open circuit. Now if you switch the processor switch to "in" the relay inside switches across and the "return" connectors are connected to the power amp inputs, while the preamp and hence "source" connectors are separated from the power amp. If you leave the switch in its "bypass only" position you will get the result you describe, but your external processor signal will suffer loading from the 9200 preamp output, and won't sound the way you expect. It is probably trying to offer too much, as it can act as an input for front left / right from an HT pre/pro, but also could accomodate some sort of external processor, that needed a signal "source" output from the 9200 which was then processed, and could "return". An equaliser would be an example (who uses those though?), or as in the manual the example sends all 9200 sources out to a surround processor, where you can do whatever you want to them before the return. In practice a purest would connect to "return" only, and flick the switch when listening to home theatre sources. (Yes I know the switch is inconveniently located - its on our list for future products) I hope this helps. I am more than happy to assist any Plinius owner and resolve any problems. Also your feedback IS important. It will directly influence future product development. If you want to email me directly please use gary@pliniusaudio.com The manual states: "To enable all sources to use the power amplifiers of the Plinius 9200 for front left and right speakers you should connect the receiver’s front right and left pre-amp outputs to the processor ‘return’ inputs on the Plinius 9200. The receiver’s front power amplifiers are disconnected from any loudspeakers as they are replaced by the Plinius 9200." However I have always had to connect mine to the ‘source’ sockets, not the return – if you connect to the return there simply is no signal. Now the issue here is one dealer has told me I’m correct, they have always had to do that, and have had several customers ask them the same thing, while another believes the manual is right, and have spoken to some one at Audible Technologies and had it confirmed that the HT Receiver should connect to the ‘return’ inputs!
Gary.M1553552674 Posted June 3, 2004 Posted June 3, 2004 Hi Boris, You've actually got it correct, it does work the way you say it should. Gary Originally posted by Boris I'm with you Mr Ed. Source & Return don't mean a thing to me, and I use them! They actually suggest the opposite to me, and obviously many others by what Mycenius has said. Considering what the processor loop does, surely the AVR pre-outs would be the 'Source', and if you want to complete the full loop, the 'Return' takes a signal back to the AVR. But no, it's the other way around :confused: Cheers, B.
Mycenius Posted June 24, 2004 Author Posted June 24, 2004 Hi all, Just for completeness I can report that I finally have my Denon 3803 back. It has been tested and found to have nothing wrong with it. The trigger is putting out the correct 20nW of 12V current, etc, etc... So everything (both amps, the switch modification & the cable) has tested out as okay and no faults! However, hooking it back up last night the trigger now works okay and everything is behaving???!!!!! :confused: So, after shagging around for 6 weeks sending stuff away for testing and such I'm stumped as to how the problem has suddenly just "vanished"... Anyway, thanks to Gary, Coops, Boris, and everyone else who helped, offered advice, etc, etc... And to the dealers, Soundline, The Listening Post & Plinius, and Eastern Hi-Fi & Avalon-Pacifc Audio, who investigated/tested/etc... M.
chadlewis Posted January 2 Posted January 2 (edited) sorry to bump a 21 year old thread, but it's pretty cool that you can, but... i have my plinius connected a similar way - using my av receiver to feed my plinius which powers my speakers, but i recently discovered that for many years i apparently had my connections WRONG, even though it still works. ? all along i have been going from my AV receivers' PRE OUT rca connections to the "PRE OUT" of the plinius! thinking at the time i guess, that since im using the PRE OUT of my receiver, i should use the PRE OUT of my plinius...? my thinking was ...connect same to same... now that i realize and the manual states that the receiver's pre outs should be connected to the Plinius processor return, i have the question; so why does it seem to work fine (exactly the same) when the PRE OUT of my receiver is connected to the PRE OUT of the PLINIUS??? I literally tried an AB comparison - plugging into the PRE OUTs of the plinius, then unplugging the cables and plugging them into the processor returns, and there's no difference.! the PRE OUTs of the plinius accepts signal as if they were INPUTS, not outputs. does that not seem strange? the only difference noticed is that when going from receiver's PRE OUTS to the PLINIUS PRE OUT, and i switch the processor bypass switch on and off, the sound is s little louder when the processor is engaged with nothing plugged into it. when i connect to the processor return, the sound disappears when the switch is in bypass, which is what you would expect. can anyone who still has this setup ty this and tell me if you get the same results? Edited January 2 by chadlewis
heymoody Posted January 24 Posted January 24 Hi Chad, This is normal because the output of the preamplifier stage (the Plinius Pre-Out) connects directly to the input of the power amplifier stage. This is obviously how all pre/power systems work - feeding the preamplifier signal to the power amp input, so in an integrated the pre-out sockets are live with the preamplifier signal. It also means anything you connect to Pre-Out goes directly to the inputs of the power amp. Pre-Out is Power-In, but this is not the intended use and can damage the amplifier. The processor Bypass allows disconnection of this pre/power link so sources connected to the Plinius can go to the AVR and so the AVR signal can return to the Plinius - hence Source and Return. I will also note that as confusing as these labels are, the easiest way to decipher which is IN and which is OUT is to think of the processor loop (Source/Return) as the reverse layout of the Tape 1/Tape 2 labels - Processor IN is on the speaker left side, not speaker right as per Tape IN.
Recommended Posts